Rzeczpospolita translation?

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Edited by: skysoulmate Feb 8, 11, 01:21 #31

delphiandomine:

(always thought it was odd that the PRL used Rzeczpospolita rather than Republika - you'd think they would have wanted to have a "clean break" with the past)

Unlike Russia (and Germany too although they took responsibility for their actions) Poland has nothing to be ashamed of in her past. No reason for a clean break.

Plk - what republics does the Commonwealth of Virginia consists of? How about the Commonwealth of Kentucky? ...Massachusetts? ...Pennsylvania?

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Edited by: delphiandomine Feb 8, 11, 01:39 #32

skysoulmate:

Unlike Russia (and Germany too although they took responsibility for their actions) Poland has nothing to be ashamed of in her past. No reason for a clean break.

Nothing? There's certainly enough skeletons in the II RP cupboard to write a very nice book - I'll start you off with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lw%C3%B3w_pogrom_%281918%29 . You could also perhaps read about the Polonization campaigns after Pilsudski's death, and perhaps finish with the annexation of Zaolzie.

Poland between the wars was no saintly country, that's for sure.

I can only assume that the reason for keeping the Rzeczpospolita name was solely to make it clear that the PRL was the successor to the II RP - perhaps to undermine the Government in Exile too. Or of course - it could just be a simple recognition that the Polish word for Republic (when applied to Poland) is Rzeczpospolita and not Republika - a mere historical curiosity.

Incidentally, would you want to risk the "Commonwealth of Poland" being possibly associated with the "Commonwealth of Independent States"?

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Edited by: skysoulmate Feb 8, 11, 01:54 #33

Delph - sure, Poland made numerous mistakes but the comparison is very flawed. Your old home country of Russia will always be the most murderous country in the world, most murderous nation in the human kind. Whether ruled by the tsar or by the commissar the shear amount of plundering, rape, torture and murder committed in Russia would make Adolf Hitler blush. Either way, getting off the subject.

Magdalena - you just don't give up either. Both Republika AND the more literal in Polish Rzeczpospolita have the same Latin origin, in English the translations became Republic AND the more literal in English Commonwealth.

My contention was and still is that since the Polish people chose a more literal, descriptive name of the country in the Polish language aka. Rzeczpospolita they should've used more literal translations in other foreign languages too, in English the proper translation would've been the Commonwealth of Poland. Same meaning but more aesthetically and phonetically pleasing also more of a verbatim translation in each specific language. Don't know what Commonwealth would be in German but for example in Swedish it could be translated as "Det Polska Samväldet" sounds logical and somewhat poetic. What's wrong with sharing the special meaning of the word Rzeczpospolita? Republic of Poland sounds so blasé.

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Feb 8, 11, 13:37 #34

skysoulmate:

Delph - sure, Poland made numerous mistakes but the comparison is very flawed. Your old home country of Russia will always be the most murderous country in the world, most murderous nation in the human kind. Whether ruled by the tsar or by the commissar the shear amount of plundering, rape, torture and murder committed in Russia would make Adolf Hitler blush. Either way, getting off the subject.

Oh, this is indisputable. Poland's bad deeds during the II RP are a drop in the ocean compared to Russia - but really, my point is that Polish history isn't exactly "clean" either.

(my home country? Sadly, my home country is a cold wasteland populated by Celts, Picts and a few Nordic types for good measure, all mixed together. Only time we ever saw any Slavs was after 2004 ;))

skysoulmate:

My contention was and still is that since the Polish people chose a more literal, descriptive name of the country in the Polish language aka. Rzeczpospolita they should've used more literal translations in other foreign languages too, in English the proper translation would've been the Commonwealth of Poland.

It depends on how you view the use of Rzeczpospolita. It's obvious that the founders of the II RP wanted to show that the Polish state was the direct successor of the I RP - hence the use of Rzeczpospolita. But the II RP (and, following it, the PRL and III RP) have all been very much Republics in nature - there is certainly nothing "Commonwealth" about them - and the use of Rzeczpospolita is simply for continuity purposes rather than for any sort of significant meaning. Even the Small Constitution (although not expressly saying it) makes it clear that the country is a republic.

skysoulmate:

What's wrong with sharing the special meaning of the word Rzeczpospolita?

Well, first of all - you have the problem that Poland borders the "Commonwealth of Independent States". That's one very good reason to avoid using the name Commonwealth in English. Then you have the way that the country is clearly described as a Republic in the Constitution - why create conflict?

skysoulmate:

Republic of Poland sounds so blasé.

It's dull, sure. But Commonwealth wouldn't be so good either - it would imply the presence of some sort of monarchy.

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Edited by: skysoulmate Feb 8, 11, 14:22 #35

delphiandomine:

Oh, this is indisputable. Poland's bad deeds during the II RP are a drop in the ocean compared to Russia - but really, my point is that Polish history isn't exactly "clean" either.

Agree. Of course, there is no country on earth that can be said to have a perfectly "clean" history.

delphiandomine:

(my home country? Sadly, my home country is a cold wasteland populated by Celts, Picts and a few Nordic types for good measure, all mixed together. Only time we ever saw any Slavs was after 2004 ;))

I'm sorry, I thought I saw someone referring to you as a Russian and I assume that was the case. My appologies. (not that being a Russian is a negative thing per se)

delphiandomine:

Well, first of all - you have the problem that Poland borders the "Commonwealth of Independent States".

Delph, does anyone in the world, except the neighboring countries even know what CIS is? Really?

delphiandomine:

Then you have the way that the country is clearly described as a Republic in the Constitution - why create conflict?

We already established that Republic and Commonwealth originate from Latin, Res Publica, the latter is merely a verbatim translation into the English language.

delphiandomine:

It's dull, sure. But Commonwealth wouldn't be so good either - it would imply the presence of some sort of monarchy.

Why? "Common" - "Publica" remember?

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Edited by: Ziemowit Feb 8, 11, 14:31 #36

delphiandomine:

It's obvious that the founders of the II RP wanted to show that the Polish state was the direct successor of the I RP - hence the use of Rzeczpospolita. But the II RP (and, following it, the PRL and III RP) have all been very much Republics in nature - there is certainly nothing "Commonwealth" about them - and the use of Rzeczpospolita is simply for continuity purposes rather than for any sort of significant meaning.

Curiously enough, I support the view of Delphiandomine here. The name "Republika Polska" would better reflect what we are now than the name "Rzeczpospolita Polska" does. I guess the noun 'commonwealth' in English tends to express an idea of a union - the British Commonwealth, the Commonwealth of Independent States - which is what Poland used to be, but no longer is. But again, it is the force of tradition and pride that makes us hold to this purely historical name. If it had not been for tradition and pride, why should the British keep their sovereign rather than try to behead her or him in front of Buckingham Palace and say (not-so-)proudly: We are republican! Down with the Queen! Vive la République britannique!

alexw68

Edited by: alexw68 Feb 8, 11, 14:32 #37

skysoulmate:

Republic of Poland sounds so blasé.

True - but the bit of postwar European history everyone wants to be a part of is the mind-numbing procession of universal healthcare services, free public education, erosion of traditional right/left ideological dichotomies, etc, etc. Not Srebrenica. Not Jaruzelski's martial law. Therefore, blasé is - albeit perhaps disappointingly - accurate.

The late, lamented Bronisław Geremek said (in about 2004) that European union is 50% poetry, 50% accountancy. OK, so we now have a Belgian haiku-writer running the European Commission, but Geremek was being nothing if not charitable in his assessment.

The fact is, Europe is run by spreadsheet jockeys. A surprising number of us wouldn't have it any other way.

Ziemowit:

Vive la République britannique!

Talk like that gets you marched off to the Tower, mon vieux.

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Edited by: skysoulmate Feb 8, 11, 14:38 #38

Ziemowit:

But again, it is the force of tradition and pride that makes us hold to this purely historical name. If it had not been for tradition and pride, why should the British keep their sovereign rather than try to behead her or him in front of Buckingham Palace and say (not-so-)proudly: We are republican! Down with the Queen! Vive la République britannique!

Aha, but that's what I'm talking about. If it's the force of tradition and pride that makes Poles use the "old school" name of Rzeczpospolita than show that tradition and pride in other languages too.

Here I believe Common- (Pospolita) -wealth (Rzecz) would prevail when used in the English language.

On the other hand, if we say Republika Polska than the Republic of Poland would be more appropriate.

alexw68:

True - but the bit of postwar European history...

My point is that the term Rzeczpospolita is a very unique word, even in the Polish language and as such it should be cherished even when it's translated to other tongues.

I'm sorry, the origins might be the very same Latin words but Rzeczpospolita and Republic just isn't the same. However both Rzeczpospolita and Commonwealth are more descriptive and word by word translations from Latin into Polish and English. So my contention is - Let's keep it unique in other languages too.

Of course, who cares what I or anyone else on PF thinks but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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Feb 8, 11, 20:02 #39

skysoulmate:

Plk - what republics does the Commonwealth of Virginia consists of? How about the Commonwealth of Kentucky? ...Massachusetts? ...Pennsylvania?

they aren't states; they are in commonwealth with each other. and there is possibly some other arrangements in their county/parish systems but i am not that familiar with them but do know that their laws do not work the same way as other states' laws.

skysoulmate:

Rzeczpospolita they should've used more literal translations in other foreign languages too, in English the proper translation would've been the Commonwealth of Poland. Same meaning but more aesthetically and phonetically pleasing also more of a verbatim translation in each specific language.

not at all

http://poltran.com/odp.php4?q=2&direction=2&word=rzeczpospolita

http://poltran.com/odp.php4?q=1&direction=1&word=commonwealth

Ziemowit:

I guess the noun 'commonwealth' in English tends to express an idea of a union - the British Commonwealth, the Commonwealth of Independent States - which is what Poland used to be, but no longer is.

yeah, back in Mieszko I times.. lol

skysoulmate:

wealth (Rzecz)

rzecz = res = thing.. not wealth

skysoulmate:

but Rzeczpospolita and Republic just isn't the same

oh? it is, it is tho

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Feb 9, 11, 00:46 #40

skysoulmate:

My point is that the term Rzeczpospolita is a very unique word, even in the Polish language and as such it should be cherished even when it's translated to other tongues.

One issue could be that even the translation "Commonwealth" could be incorrect - as there are other Commonwealths, whereas there's only one Rzeczpospolita. As Ziemowit says - in English, it expresses the idea of a union - whereas modern Poland is a very centralised State with no aspect of "Union" about it.

Of course - there's no reason why it can't be Rzeczpospolita Poland in English. This could be a perfectly adequate solution - Greece is officially "Hellenic Republic" in English, after all. There's other countries with equally odd names - The Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, anyone? There's even "Plurinational State of Bolivia"! Heck - Libya is officially "Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya" - whatever that means :)

One question (Torq? you're the man for this sort of thing...) I'd like to know - when did Poland expressly become a Republic in terms of being mentioned in a constitutional document?

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Feb 9, 11, 01:45 #41
skysoulmate: My point is that the term Rzeczpospolita is a very unique word, even in the Polish language and as such it should be cherished even when it's translated to other tongues. Well people says: Tsar or Tsarist Russia and not Emperor or Imperial Russia (Although ive seen Imperial sometimes) So why not Rzeczpospolita? :=) (I would argue it's hard to write and remember)

shinga

Sep 2, 11, 09:41 #42

One of my lecturers, who specialised in the Polish consitutional law, said that the Polish word "rzeczpospolita" can't be accurately translated into English. It is, as others have said before, a calque of the Latin phrase "res publica" but because of the Polish history it has a broader meaning. So in legal texts and law books when speaking about the First Rzeczpospolita it's translated into Commonwealth, but when talking about the Second and Third Rzeczpospolita it's translated as Republic or not translated at all, with an author's note on the whole historical and legal context.

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