Why when spelling Polish names abroad, Polish letters are ignored?

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May 9, 11, 21:45 #1

When I read articles in foreign media I always see Polish surnames spelled without Polish letters: ą, ę, ł, ż, ź, ć, ń, ś, while for example Swedish or German names are spelled (generally) correctly including letters specific for their language. For example Lech Wałęsa almost in every foreign media exists under the name Lech Walesa while such names as Björk, Jonas Åkerlund or Mikael Håfström seem to be not a problem for the same sources. Have you noticed that too? What might be the reason for that?

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May 9, 11, 21:58 #2

Maaarysia:

What might be the reason for that?

I guess, the "Latin 2" vs. "Latin 1" unfair division during early computer age, before Unicode revolution, is part of it. In those times Swedes could easily communicate with French (Latin 1) but not with Poles (Latin 2). But some people, including Polish users, do not know how to take advantage of Unicode and stick to old software. I still see some web pages originating from Poland, which are rendered improperly, so instead of "Wałęsa" a reader sees somthing like "Wa%#sa".

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Edited by: boletus May 9, 11, 22:11 #3

Maaarysia
I always see Polish surnames spelled without Polish letters: ą, ę, ł, ż, ź, ć, ń, ś,

The "always" part is not correct. Enter Wałęsa in Google's search field and try news, English results only, in order to eliminate Polish sources. I just did it - one of the top results is this:

Edit - not this one

Google:
What the West Gets Wrong About Belarus‎
Central Europe Digest - Edward Lucas - 2 May 2011
None of the opposition leaders has emerged as a charismatic, credible leader similar to Lech Wałęsa or Václav Havel. It is true that they faced a difficult ...

But statistically - you are right. Edward Lucas (above) is a good friend of Poland, and he knows the correct spelling.

MaaarysiaThreads: 3 Posts: 541 Joined: Feb 27, 10 ♀	Edited by: Maaarysia May 9, 11, 22:13 #4
boletus: Enter Wałęsa in Google's search field and try news, English results only, in order to eliminate Polish sources. I just did it - one of the top results is this: I just did it too and Walesa was in most renown newspapers But probably you're right about the lack of proper types for Polish letter. Probably that was the reason and people just get used to this spelling.

KoalaThreads: 1 Posts: 433 Joined: May 4, 11 ♂	May 9, 11, 22:16 #5
Why do you care? They wouldn't pronounce it correctly even if they spelled them correctly. shrugs

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Edited by: delphiandomine May 9, 11, 22:18 #6

Maaarysia:

I just did it too and Walesa was in most renown newspapers

You might want to start by asking why Poland doesn't allow foreign (ie, non English/Polish) characters on official documents.

Generally speaking, names are always rendered differently in different languages - Michaił Gorbaczow anyone?

I suppose Lech Wałęsa should be Lech Valemsa in English. But that would be silly - so Lech Walesa it is.

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May 9, 11, 22:18 #7

I still see some web pages originating from Poland, which are rendered improperly, so instead of "Wałęsa" a reader sees somthing like "Wa%#sa".

some commonly used font sets here don't have Polish characters (or characters from other languages). Besides, nobody knows how to pronounce them, so Wałęsa is really the same as Walesa, and neither of them is pronounced the original Polish way... It takes decades before a name (like Brzezinski) becomes a household name, so the pronunciation and spelling become closer to Polish. For the most part, only few people know who Walesa is.

boletusThreads: 47 Posts: 1,095 Joined: Apr 13, 11 ♂	May 9, 11, 22:19 #8
Koala: Why do you care? They wouldn't pronounce it correctly even if they spelled them correctly. shrugs Few of my Canadian friends often recall Wałęsa in conversations and pronounce it correctly.

Antek_StalichThreads: 6 Posts: 1,533 Joined: May 6, 11 ♂	May 9, 11, 22:20 #9
What problem is this really? This is transcription. Due to historical reasons, typing Polish names using only English characters is not really different than transliterating Russian names into Latin. My feeling is, most Poles give a damn to it. Most of e-mail systems disallow anything than English characters in the message subject, too.

KoalaThreads: 1 Posts: 433 Joined: May 4, 11 ♂	May 9, 11, 22:21 #10
delphiandomine: Generally speaking, names are always rendered differently in different languages - Michaił Gorbaczow anyone? Russians use different alphabet, so Poles use a different transcription convention than the English speaking countries.

alexw68

Edited by: alexw68 May 9, 11, 22:27 #11

ItsAllAboutME:

For the most part, only few people know who Walesa is.

The BBC were quite meticulous about the pronunciation of Wałęsa's name - if not the orthography - when all that was front page news in the 80s. Hence, anyone reasonably politically switched on (and old enough to remember those times) in the UK indeed would know who he was.

They weren't quite as on the ball a few short years later, though, when they didn't pick up a heavily-accented 'F*ck you, Manchester' chant from the Legia Warsaw contingent at Old Trafford and cheerily broadcast it to a grateful nation ... :)

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May 9, 11, 22:27 #12

ItsAllAboutME

ItsAllAboutME:

some commonly used font sets here don't have Polish characters (or characters from other languages)

Here? I am typing from Canada, and I can use any European script (in theory anything, but I never tried it for lack of knowledge/interest in African, Middle Eastern languages) - including math symbols, with most fonts. But I use Hackintosh. Apple always had good Unicode support.

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May 9, 11, 22:30 #13

delphiandomine:

Generally speaking, names are always rendered differently in different languages - Michaił Gorbaczow anyone?

I suppose Lech Wałęsa should be Lech Valemsa in English. But that would be silly - so Lech Walesa it is.

They are rendered only if the original spelling is in the different alphabet.

delphiandomine:

You might want to start by asking why Poland doesn't allow foreign (ie, non English/Polish) characters on official documents.

Is there any country which allow to do that?

Antek_Stalich:

My feeling is, most Poles give a damn to it.

I was just curious :)

alexw68	Edited by: alexw68 May 9, 11, 22:32 #14
boletus: Apple always had good Unicode support. Fanboi :) Same story for Linux for as long as I can remember. That Microsoft hegemony is probably what's behind all this - it's a hard, hard thing to break...

boletusThreads: 47 Posts: 1,095 Joined: Apr 13, 11 ♂	May 9, 11, 22:40 #15
alexw68: Same story for Linux for as long as I can remember I only exited the Linux camp few years ago, after becoming too lazy to play the role of "System administrator". Man, setting up my newest toy was as hard as my first "slackware". This, I hope, exonerates me. :-)

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Edited by: Antek_Stalich May 9, 11, 22:40 #16

boletus:

ItsAllAboutME: some commonly used font sets here don't have Polish characters (or characters from other languages)
Here? I am typing from Canada, and I can use any European script (in theory anything, but I never tried it for lack of knowledge/interest in African, Middle Eastern languages) - including math symbols, with most fonts. But I use Hackintosh. Apple always had good Unicode support.

Come on... Microsoft Windows supports all languages. However, somebody working hard and fast saves time by just typing given name quickly using English characters. If I were to type something in Czech, I'd have to switch to the Czech keyboard (and not having the physical Czech keyboard, I'd have to use the "screen keyboard", which is painful). Or, to use the Character Map. Why should I do it?

Many Polish friends of mine staying abroad just chat with me in Polish using only Latin characters and we understand one another perfectly. I work in a English-speaking company and we address our Polish clients not using diacritical characters. Nobody complains. I think our sales area is 16 countries in Scandinavia and East Europe. Everybody's getting same from me - a Norwegian, Finnish or a Croat will be addressed only in Latin.

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May 9, 11, 22:43 #17

Maaarysia:

Have you noticed that too? What might be the reason for that?

I would agree with Antek. Most of us doesn't give a damn, but I’m sure you can request your name to be spelled anyway you want. Do you remember Prince? His name was just a sign. Not sure how to pronounce it, but here it is.

...

Antek_StalichThreads: 6 Posts: 1,533 Joined: May 6, 11 ♂	May 9, 11, 22:45 #18
Havok, it's spelled "the artist formerly known as Prince" ;-)))) Sure, everyone can demand proper spelling. Then I would give less discount to such a company ;-)

alexw68	May 9, 11, 22:47 #19
Havok: Not sure how to pronounce it, but here it is. 'Weird purple midget', I believe. Sorry, can't be bothered to render it in phonemics :)

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May 10, 11, 00:01 #20

Maaarysia:

They are rendered only if the original spelling is in the different alphabet.

Not always true - what about Franjo Tuđman? It's rendered in Polish as Tudjman at times, not the original.

And the names are frequently changed - for instance, Mindaugas, the first Lithuanian king - known as Mindaugas in English and Lithuanian, but changed into Mendog in Polish.

And what about the most famous example of the lot - John Paul II, or more accurately, Ioannes Paulus II.

Polish is really littered with examples like this.

Antek_StalichThreads: 6 Posts: 1,533 Joined: May 6, 11 ♂	Edited by: Antek_Stalich May 10, 11, 00:06 #21
Before anyone puts the complaint on spelling the name such as "Walesa", we should start calling Muenchen the right name, and we shall get rid of names such as Padwa, Rzym, Londyn, Nowy Jork and the like.

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	May 10, 11, 14:47 #22
Antek_Stalich Antek_Stalich: Before anyone puts the complaint on spelling the name such as "Walesa", we should start calling Muenchen the right name, and we shall get rid of names such as Padwa, Rzym, Londyn, Nowy Jork and the like. bloody hell - you are not serious, are you?