Is this true about Polish pronunciation of English (that some words sound identical?)

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Aug 18, 11, 21:58 #1

Hi!

My friend told me today that some Poles find it difficult to tell the difference between the sounds of "ah" and "uh" in English -- for example, she said that the words "hat" and "hut" sound identical to Polish ears. Is this true?

Sorry, I know this seems like a strange question, but my friend and I have had a mini-argument about this. The thing is, neither of us know any Polish people, and so when she told me this, I said, "How do you know?", and she said, "I just know. I just read it somewhere", and she insists that it's 100% true, even though she doesn't have any evidence to back it up!

I would be very grateful to anyone that can help my friend and I settle this. Thank you. :)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 18, 11, 22:07 #2
Your friend is right. A and U are often confused and I often hear this as a teacher. Batman sounds like Buttman, LOL :) As a Scotsman, I pronounce my vowels clearly and they just can't copy me that well. They don't open their mouths when saying 'A' like I do.

MoonstoneThreads: 1 Posts: 1 Joined: Aug 18, 11 ♀	Aug 18, 11, 22:23 #3
Really? Well, she'll lord that over me for the rest of the evening, then. The thing is, I love her and everything, but she's always coming out with things like this, and most of the time, she's wrong. I'll have to admit defeat tonight, though... Thanks. :)

Zman	Aug 18, 11, 22:26 #4
It all very much depends on how much exposure one has had to english in his/her lifetime..... but yes, for many Poles this differentiation is difficult. Also, it depends on whether one has musical ear or not.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 18, 11, 22:26 #5
Some you win, some you lose.

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 ♂ [Moderator]	Aug 18, 11, 22:31 #6
just done a test say hat............ hat say hut............ hot. problem: my test subject had never learnt or heard 'hut' before.

♂

Edited by: ShortHairThug Aug 18, 11, 22:35 #7

Your friend is right. A and U are often confused and I often hear this as a teacher.

There’s a difference between American and British pronunciation, although British make it sound closer to Polish "a" I can still hear the difference. Perhaps some of the British accents make it indistinguishable to the Polish ear, I'm not that familiar with British accents simply didn't have enough contact with you but from observation Americans pronounce it as Polish "e" that sure as hell can't be confused with Polish "a" sound so I guess it all depends. Claim technicality, it's a draw. Tell her you meant American English. Never concede defeat.

MyMomThreads: 9 Posts: 185 Joined: Aug 13, 11 ♂	Aug 18, 11, 22:37 #8
I pronounce hat and hut the same. But if I didn't know any English I would pronounce hat as in "chata" and hut as in "huta" :D

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 ♂ [Moderator]	Aug 18, 11, 22:45 #9
"chata" and hut as in "huta" would that not give us 'hut' ... 'hoot'

Lyzko	Aug 18, 11, 23:16 #10
...not to mention between "hat" (hAt) and "head" (hEd). Often though, to give people the benefit of the doubt here, it was more the pronunciation than the spelling itself which drives learners crazyLOL Dictations in my beginning ESL class, among whom were numerous, Poles, usually were returned bloody red with umpteen such confusions-:)

Lyzko	Aug 18, 11, 23:46 #11
"Where is the frying pan? It's near my fountain pen." usually came out orally "Vaaihrrr iz zuh frrajink pen? Eetss neaaihrr maj fauntajn pan." Elision also causes many Poles difficulty, since we Americans almost always string our sounds together, e.g. "Saturday" (sadd'rday) vs. (sahT- TUR-day) etc..

KoalaThreads: 1 Posts: 433 Joined: May 4, 11 ♂	Aug 19, 11, 00:03 #12
Learning vowels is almost always the most difficult of learning pronunciation of any foreign language, Polish has 8 vowels whereas French has 16 or 17 and I can't even hear the difference between many of them, let alone pronounce them correctly. English isn't as tricky, but still difficult.

♂

Edited by: Nightglade Aug 19, 11, 00:20 #13

From what I've gathered with my students, and my partner (whom is Polish) they can certainly differentiate the sounds when hearing them, but pronouncing them is another matter. Whenever my partner says something along the lines of "My ankle [sounding like uncle] is in pain" I always ask what's wrong with him. Aunt / ant is another. I am quite cruel, but with time I managed to get her to pronounce it perfectly with this unusual and crude sentence:

"My uncle ant's aunt had an uncle with a broken ankle after my uncle ant's aunt's uncle tripped over an ant"

scottie1113Threads: 11 Posts: 873 Joined: Mar 13, 07 ♂	Aug 19, 11, 00:21 #14
Try -ough. There are nine ways to pronounce this in English. But one of my favorites is beach, as in there are many beautiful beaches in Poland. It comes out as bitch. I won't tell you my answer to that one . :) I've got lots more... Choir. Great story behind this one. Polish pronuciation is regular. English isn't. No wonder it makes my students crazy.

♂

Edited by: Nightglade Aug 19, 11, 00:23 #15

Try -ough. There are nine ways to pronounce this in English.

8. A rough-coated, dough-faced ploughman strode through the streets of Scarborough, coughing and hiccoughing thoughtfully.

By the way. Does anyone ever stare at a word for so long, or use it so frequently in rapid succession that you begin to doubt whether it's a real word? A few nights ago I was beginning to doubt the existence of the word "door" and just now with 'uncle".

Lyzko	Aug 19, 11, 01:47 #16
I like to walk my students through that wonderful ESL-learners' verse: "I take it you already know Of tough and bough and lough and dough. Others may struggle (but not you) On hiccough, thorough, trough and through... Come, come! You are perhaps, Aquaint' with more familiar traps... Beware of heard, a dreadful word, That sounds like bird, but looks like beard..."

scottie1113Threads: 11 Posts: 873 Joined: Mar 13, 07 ♂	Aug 19, 11, 03:14 #17
Yes, that's my favorite! it's longer than that, but I recocognized it immediately.

catsoldierThreads: 90 Posts: 697 Joined: Sep 27, 09 ♂	Aug 19, 11, 19:26 #18
"hat" and "hut" sound identical to Polish ears. Is this true? Slam dog millionaire @ 2.35 and 2.52

cjjThreads: 2 Posts: 239 Joined: Sep 28, 07 ♀	Aug 19, 11, 19:37 #19
our family favourites are fairy/furry/ferry and larder/ladder but i'm from the depths of northern ireland so cannot toss any stones around in a conversation about pronunciation. cj [i've had recent exposure to the 'a' / 'u' dilemma .. .turns the description of a simple software application crash on some hardware into something a lot more imaginative ... ]

Lyzko	Aug 19, 11, 20:37 #20
...oh, then, of course, there's "mAny" and "mOney"

mischeThreads: 2 Posts: 17 Joined: Aug 3, 11 ♂	Aug 20, 11, 21:46 #21
Great thread. I'm often embarrassed because of my pronunciation. My biggest problems are: live - leave as - ass sheet - sh*t I often can't hear any difference...

legendThreads: 9 Posts: 819 Joined: Apr 23, 11 ♂	Aug 20, 11, 23:38 #22
When going from English -> Polish my dad has always had a problem with a/an/the- missing the articles when speaking/writing. and he says sheet and sh*t with the same pronunciation :)

Lyzko	Aug 20, 11, 23:38 #23
....And neither can Russian, Asian, Arabic or Spanish native speakers, Mische, you're hardly alone!!

plgrl

Aug 22, 11, 12:12 #24

live - leave

actually that pair shouldn't cause any trubble. Pronounce them like: lyw - liv

fairy/furry/ferry

It seems that fairy is pronounce the same way as furry, while in ferry the accent goes on last syllable, is that correct?

Personally I have problems with word beach and b*tch. I think the pronounciation of word beach in my case sounds more like the other word. I hear the difference
but can't say what makes it. Maybe it's like b*tch is pronounce more as "bycz", when beach should be pronounce similarily to "bicz" (but bit longer)

he says sheet and sh*t with the same pronunciation :)

sit and siet. Just show him that, that should help ;)

Lyzko	Aug 22, 11, 17:47 #25
I still remember a sample phrase/sentence in a textbook on pronunciation for Poles learning English I once used. This was said by the native Polish author to be particularly troublesome for those Polish speakers making that (arduous) transition from English to American: WHERE IS THE MONEY, MARY?

♂ [Moderator]

Edited by: Vincent Aug 22, 11, 18:25 #26

actually that pair shouldn't cause any trouble

It seems that fairy is pronounce the same way as furry, while in ferry the accent goes on last syllable, is that correct?

. Pronounce them like: lyw - liv

In British English, I would say fairy and ferry are almost similar, just a small difference, while furry is completely different. The "fur" part is quite clear.

Maybe it's like b*tch is pronounce more as "bycz", when beach should be pronounce similarily to "bicz" (but bit longer)

That's probably close enough. Actually bitch is pretty close to the Polish verb być.

♂

Aug 25, 11, 00:08 #27

Actually bitch is pretty close to the Polish verb być.

I never let that one go ;)

I often hear troubles with sheet / shit, beach / bitch, leave / live too.. But always try to gently fix it with
"szit / szyt" emphasing the longer e sound in sheet. bicz / być, liw / lyw.

I gave one of my students today an article about the bermuda triangle conspiracy, and a plane flight to "Cockburn town" of Grand Turk Island.. My student saw it, and deliberately pronounced it wrong as "Kook burn". I had the dilemma of whether or not to correct her, but in the end didn't have the strength.

toker	Aug 25, 11, 00:54 #28
Cockburn town i think it's pronounced "Coburn"....what an embarrassing name if not!

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Aug 25, 11, 00:55 #29
i think it's pronounced "Coburn" The street in Edinburgh is pronounced that way...could be the same?

Koalaa	Aug 25, 11, 01:05 #30
I'd like to add one thing. It'd be really helpful if the spelling of the word provided any sort of guidance to its pronunciation, which unfortunately isn't the case in English. The fact that you have to look up the word in a dictionary to learn its pronunciation severely hinders the speed of learning and most people don't bother, being satisfied with their guesses.

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