When do you use 'się'? And what does it mean?

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Jan 9, 10, 21:47 #1

A Polish friend of mine recently explained 'się' to me, saying...and I quote,

'Się is a stupid Polish word that doesn't translate in English...you use it when you are refering to the word 'self', such as 'himself/herself'...e.g. "Ona zabije się" - "She will kill herself", but with "Ona zabije jego" - "She will kill him", you don't use it because there is no 'self'.'

So, I thought that explanation was pretty clear and fair...but then I read something another friend of mine had written....

"Weekend w górach, zapewne się dziś wieczorem opiję i znowu narobię głupot ;) Obudzę się w jakimś dziwnym psychodelicznym miejscu i nasunie się pytanie: "Co się stało się??"
I'm new to Polish so had to let 'google translate' tell me what it says as I don't want to bore her by asking constant language questions all the time :) ....

Well, google translate said that the last bit " Co się stało się??" means 'What happened?' .....so how does that relate to the use of the word 'self' ?

What is the use of the word się exactly?

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Jan 9, 10, 22:10 #2

It's really hard to explain.Your friend was quite right-it's used as "self" but some other verbs also requires "się".
zaimek zwrotny, używany...
(1.1) ...w stronie zwrotnej (konstrukcji, w której wykonawca lub wykonawcy czynności jednocześnie doznają jej skutków), siebie
(1.2) ...jako forma bezosobowa
(1.3) ...dla oznaczenia zbiorowści wykonującej czynność

przykłady:
(1.1) Krzysztof poruszył się przez sen.
(1.1) Anna umyła się.
(1.2) Robi się późno.
(1.3) Mówi się, że Janek ma ożenić się z Judytą.

I'll try to translate it:
"się" is used in three situations:
(1.1)...when the person feels the consequence(it's not good translation but the best I could give) as in "self"
(1.2)..as a impersonal form(???),when you don't know who had done sth
(1.3)...when there are group doing sth

e.g.:
(1.1)Krzysztof moved when he was asleep
(1.1)Anna washed herself
(1.2)It's getting late
(1.3)It's said that Janek is getting married with Judyta

I don't know if I made it any clearer but I've tried

musicwriterThreads: 5 Posts: 95 Joined: Jan 7, 10 ♂	Jan 9, 10, 23:07 #3
It is a reflexive article that means you did something yourself (without help), also answers the question "who did it". Even a machine that runs automatically can be descibed as "po mogą się".

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Jan 9, 10, 23:50 #4

there was a very good explanation on "się" already posted in one of the threads, but I can't find it now.

Anyway, I'll try to summarize it:
- basically, there are two types of verbs which take "się":

one is verbs needing an object - e.g. myć - myję ręce, matka myje dziecko, on myje się - you always wash something or somebody and when the thing washed is oneself, then you use "się". It's the same for every grammatical person - ja myję się, on myje się, wy myjecie się. This is your example with killing - ona zabije się.

The other group is verbs which take "się" for no apparent reason, you just need to remember which ones they are and treat "się" as a part of the verb itself. Examples:
stać się - to happen
okazać się - turn out
podobać się
Notice that some of these verbs take on different meaning when devoid of "się", as with "stać się" and "stać", which means just "to stand".

IMO you should just accept that some verbs are like that and memorize them, complete with "się".

♂

Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Jan 9, 10, 23:53 #5

When people explain this it sounds more complicated than it really is.

In a slightly simplified way we can say that:
Się means myself, yourself, herself, himself, ourselves, themselves and yourselves (depending on the ending of the verb as usual).

Compare these pairs:

Myjemy = We are washing
Myjemy się = We are washing ourselves

Uczę = I teach
Uczę się = I teach myself (I study)

Kochają go = They love him
Kochają się = They love themselves (or they make love to each other)

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 12 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Jan 10, 10, 00:10 #6
But note that Polish and English verbs are not always reflexive in the same situations. So, sometimes you can't just translate it word by word from PL-ENG or vice versa. But you will learn these situations by heart automatically while studying other parts of the language.

strzygaThreads: 4 Posts: 894 Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀	Jan 10, 10, 00:14 #7
SzwedwPolsce: When people explain this it sounds more complicated than it really is. That's probably true. But what you say further on doesn't explain verbs like śmiać się, stać się or wydawać się, where "się" doesn't mark any reflexive action, still it's necessary to use it.

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 12 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Jan 10, 10, 00:52 #8
strzyga: But what you say further on doesn't explain verbs like śmiać się, stać się or wydawać się, where "się" doesn't mark any reflexive action, still it's necessary to use it. SzwedwPolsce: But you will learn these situations by heart automatically while studying other parts of the language. Of course there are exceptions to all rules (in all languages).

strzygaThreads: 4 Posts: 894 Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀	Jan 10, 10, 01:11 #9
SzwedwPolsce: But you will learn these situations by heart automatically while studying other parts of the language. True. But that was the original question in this thread - Turtleonfire didn't have any problem with the reflexive use, which is quite logical; he was asking about the other, seemingly illogical "się" words.

Sparkle_RavelleThreads: 4 Posts: 15 Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♀	Jan 10, 10, 15:37 #10
strzyga: reflexive use Sorry if I sound stupid in asking this, but what does 'reflexive' mean here?

strzygaThreads: 4 Posts: 894 Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀	Jan 10, 10, 15:42 #11
Sparkle_Ravelle: what does 'reflexive' mean here? it means directed towards self, as in: I wash myself, look after yourself. Compare to: Mary washes dishes, mother looks after a child - the action is directed towards some external object, not self.

VincentThreads: 15 Posts: 1,606 Joined: Sep 9, 07 ♂ [Moderator]	Jan 10, 10, 15:49 #12
Sparkle_Ravelle: Sorry if I sound stupid in asking this, but what does 'reflexive' mean here? Put simply...reflexive verbs are verbs where the subject and the object are the same person or thing.

cavemanThreads: 4 Posts: 15 Joined: Aug 29, 09 ♂	Jan 27, 10, 14:49 #13
Jan 27, 10, 21:16 - Thread attached on merging: Się - What does it actually mean? The closest translation I can get from anyone is "oneself" but it doesn't make sense in many of the sentences I see it in. Can anyone help me understand "się" better? Perhaps with some examples? Thanks in advance!

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Jan 27, 10, 15:10 #14

Write those sentences.

You use "się" when you're talking about something that somebody have to do with her(his)self. For example:
Czy może się Pan przesunąć? - literally "Can you move?" but in can be translated as "Can you get yourself and move?".
You can't use "się" when we have no choice in doing something. For example "spadać" (to fall). When you're falling there is nothing you can do about it. But if you sliped there was something you did to yourself and that's why there's "poślizgnąć się" - to slip.

This is the way in which I understand "się". But I'm not Polish teacher :)

♂

Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Jan 27, 10, 15:16 #15

In a slightly simplified way we can say that:

Się means myself, yourself, herself, himself, ourselves, themselves and yourselves (depending on the ending of the verb as usual).

Compare these pairs:

Myjemy = We are washing
Myjemy się = We are washing ourselves

Uczę = I teach
Uczę się = I teach myself (I study/learn)

Kochają go = They love him
Kochają się = They love themselves (or they make love to each other)

And sometimes się occurs without any obvious function, those situations you have to learn by heart (as you get more experienced).

When you see a verb in a sentence you should always check if się is present or not, so you learn which verbs are associated with się, and which are not.

Another thread

♂

Jan 27, 10, 15:20 #16

EchoTheCat:

You use "się" when you're talking about something that somebody have to do with her(his)self.

Yes, but there are also some verbs that require 'się' for no abvious reson. Those just must be memorized. e.g.:

śmiać się, smucić się, cieszyć się, pocić się, najeść się, napić się, wyspać się itp.

Of course one could find an explanation for them in history of the language, but it's not what an average user o the language needs to know.

Cinek

EchoTheCatThreads: 2 Posts: 183 Joined: Jan 20, 10 ♀	Jan 27, 10, 15:23 #17
cinek: śmiać się, smucić się, cieszyć się, pocić się, najeść się, napić się, wyspać się itp. Most of them are feelings.

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 12 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Jan 27, 10, 15:34 #18
Now it became a lot of text. If we summarize it with one sentence we can say: Się means myself, yourself, herself, himself, ourselves, themselves and yourselves (depending on the ending of the verb as usual).

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Jan 27, 10, 15:39 #19

@SzwedwPolsce

Are you saying that it's actually impossible to accurately translate the word without seeing it in the context of the surrounding words?

i teach myself = Uczę się
you teach yourself = uczysz się
he teaches himself = uczy się
we teach ourselves = uczymy się
they teach themselves = uczą się

It's almost like turning the verb back in on itself. This would explain the confusion!

EchoTheCatThreads: 2 Posts: 183 Joined: Jan 20, 10 ♀	Jan 27, 10, 15:40 #20
I kropka ! :)

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Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Jan 27, 10, 15:49 #21

caveman:

Are you saying that it's actually impossible to accurately translate the word without seeing it in the context of the surrounding words?

Yes, sometimes. Like in all languages.

Uczę = I teach (maybe as a teacher)
Uczysz = You teach

Uczę się = I teach myself (but in English you say "I study" or "I learn", but it means the same.)
Uczysz się = You study/learn

caveman:

It's almost like turning the verb back in on itself.

Exactly. This grammatical construction is called a reflexive verb, so the name makes sense.

cavemanThreads: 4 Posts: 15 Joined: Aug 29, 09 ♂	Jan 27, 10, 15:58 #22
Thank you everyone for your help. This has been one of those moments when you're studying a language and something finally clicks after months of frustration.

MichalThreads: - Posts: 2,408 Joined: Feb 27, 07 ♂	Jan 27, 10, 16:34 #23
caveman It is used to make transitive verbs throughout the slav World. In Russian it is sja and in Czech it is se. It is no big deal.

SemsemThreads: 17 Posts: 24 Joined: Dec 28, 09 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 23:10 #24
Alright, so a question or two... Nominative – Genitive się/siebie Dative sobie Accusative się/siebie Instrumental sobą Locative sobie Vocative – When would one use the locative? If the verb is in the locative? And when would you use "sam"? And would it be right to say "uczyłem się" for "I taught myself"?

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Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Jan 31, 10, 23:31 #25

Semsem:

When would one use the locative? If the verb is in the locative?

Most common situation is after prepositions that govern the locative case.
- Nie myśl tylko o sobie (don't think only about yourself).

Semsem:

And would it be right to say "uczyłem się" for "I taught myself"?

uczyłem się (past tense, imperfective aspect) is more like I was teaching myself or I was studying.
nauczyłem się (past tense, perfective aspect) means more like I taught myself or I learned.

It takes some time to understand the differences between the perf. and imperf. aspects.

Semsem:

And when would you use "sam"?

It means alone or the same. It's declined by gender and case, like an adjective, also when it means 'the same'.

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 12 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 23:52 #26
Semsem: And when would you use "sam"? Aha.. now I understand what you mean. Sam = himself Sama = herself

MichalThreads: - Posts: 2,408 Joined: Feb 27, 07 ♂	Feb 1, 10, 08:21 #27
SzwedwPolsce it can also be translated as 'on your own'. Rób to sam-do it yourself, do it on your own ect

gumishuThreads: 13 Posts: 3,627 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	Feb 1, 10, 11:13 #28
SzwedwPolsce: It means alone or the same. it only means the same in the constructions - ten sam, ta sama, to samo, taki sam, taka sama, takie samo (all of these of course get declined) example: Dzisiaj na obiad podano to samo* co wczoraj.* They served the same thing for the lunch (dinner) as yesterday.

al111Threads: 34 Posts: 106 Joined: Sep 2, 09 ♂	Feb 1, 10, 14:10 #29
so when do verbs like pić and jeść take on na[i][/i] at the beginning?

scottie1113Threads: 10 Posts: 812 Joined: Mar 13, 07 ♂	Feb 2, 10, 10:33 #30
You should get a copy of 301 Polish verbs. There's a discussion of prefixes and their meanings on page xli. Reflexive verbs are common in Romance languages. It also tells you which verbs take which cases. It's a really helpful book.

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