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Germans and Poles – Fiction or Myth?


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Lukasz
Edited by: Lukasz  Mar 21, 08, 06:25  #91

Bratwurst Boy wrote:
Bratwurst Boy


You know Bratwurst you are enthinc German ... and Merkels Grandfather was ethnic Pole ... and I think your familly was very nazi so their Polish neighbours didn't want them to stay ...

as to Germans attitude towards me ... I haven't been looking for job I just visited the country and I don't like Germans ...


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Bratwurst Boy
  Mar 21, 08, 06:26  #92

Lukasz wrote:
and Merkels Grandfather was ethnic Pole ... and I think your familly was very nazi so their Polish neighbours didn't want them to stay .


Yes...I could claim the Earth is flat too without bringing any evidence and sources...but would make me look abit ridiculous too....


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Lady in red [Guest]
  Mar 21, 08, 06:29  #93

Cor.......War of The Words or what !

You lot are so silly to be arguing and name calling each other......
mad is the only word I can think of atm.


:(

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MareGaea
  Mar 21, 08, 06:33  #94

Grounded wrote:
Currywurst, Bratwurst, Knacker, Weisswurst ..... any wurst will do really :-)


I can appreciate a good wurst on set times: Currywurst as an after-shopping snack with a piece of bread; a good bratwurst (in Germany with some good senf; in Holland with ketchup and mustard) and a glass of Veltins or Beck's or Kölsch; Knacker I enjoy strangely enough best with a mash of Grünkohl and potatos with some vinegar and a little piece of butter; Weisswurst with -of course- sweet mustard (Süsser Senf - lovely) and a liter of a good Weizenbeer like Paulaner, Erdinger, Spaten or Franzikaner (there are loads of others, which names I forgot).

M-G


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Grounded
  Mar 21, 08, 06:41  #95

One thing i really liked in holland was krokette?. Put a euro into the vending maschine and out comes a hot snack. nice :)

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Lukasz
Edited by: Lukasz  Mar 21, 08, 06:47  #96

http://www.newsweek.pl/wydania/artykul.asp?Artykul=18399&Wydanie=585



I have only source in Polish ... Neewsweek PL edition ... (Merkel Polsh roots)

as to German nationalists:

"Leader of NPD pointed it in this way, sooner or later we are going to take Poland, in 20 years time, in 50 years time in 100 years time, we need to be patient and act step by step, try to expelle Poles ... or buy land there ...

In some places in eastern Germany they have 30% support ...

and they want to use old methods.

lets show it on Poznan example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulturkampf

In 1886, in line with Eduard von Hartmann's slogan of eradication of Slavs on the German soil,[citation needed] the authorities of Prussian part of Poland prepared a new policy of Germanisation of the land. According to Heinrich Tiedemann, the author of the plan, the reason why all earlier attempts at bringing more German settlers to the Poznań area failed was that they allegedly felt uncertain and alien there. The proposed solution was to assure them of correctness of elimination of Poles from public life and land property, as well as to promote land acquisition by administrative means. The state-controlled Colonization Commission was to buy off land and estates from the local Poles and sell it, at a much lower price, to Germans. Although it managed to attract circa 22,000 families to the area,[18] the overall percentage of Polish inhabitants of the land was not changed. Similarly, the activities of the Eastern Marches Society met with little success. Instead, the German actions following the start of the Kulturkampf resulted in strengthening the Polish national awareness and creation of several nationalist organization similar to the ones created against Polish culture and economy. By 1904, when the new law on settlement which effectively forbade Polish peasants from construction of new houses, the sense of national identity was strong enough to cause a period of civil unrest in the country. Among the notable symbols of the era were the children's strike of Września and the struggle of Michał Drzymała who effectively evaded the new law by living in a circus van rather than a newly-built house.

All in all, the policies of Germanisation of the Poznań area mostly failed. Although most of the administrative measures aimed against the Poles remained in force until 1918, between 1912 and 1914 only four Polish-owned estates were expropriated, while at the same time Polish social organizations successfully competed with German trade organizations and even started to buy land from the Germans. The long-lasting effect of the Polish-German conflict in the area was development of a sense of Greater Polish identity, distinct from the identity common in other parts of Poland and primarily associated with nationalist ideas rather than socialism, prevailing in other parts of the country in 20th century.


in poorer parts of Poland Germans were more succesful ... and later were expelled by Stalin ...

some Germans still live in past ... I hope it will change.


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MareGaea
  Mar 21, 08, 06:47  #97

Grounded wrote:
One thing i really liked in holland was krokette?. Put a euro into the vending maschine and out comes a hot snack. nice :)


Kroket :) They are nice, but I wouldn't eat them out of the Automatiek as we call those vending walls with Febo; I would order them at the counter and refuse them when the Turk gets it from out of that wall - you never know how long these things have been laying there and even though it's not healthy anyway, at least you know it's freshly baked by then and all the germs are dead :) Try bamieballen or nasischijven from the FEBO, incredibly fat, but delicious :)

M-G


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Grounded
  Mar 21, 08, 06:58  #98

are bamieballen similar to bitterballen? used to have them in the pubs when we went out

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MareGaea
  Mar 21, 08, 07:07  #99

No, bitterballen are basically the same as kroketten, only in a different shape. Bamiballen (sorry for the spelling-error earlier) are basically balls made of Bami (fried noodles with vegetables and spiced meat) with a crust just like bitterballen and kroketten. Kroket en bitterbal are rolls and balls made of a thick kind of ragout; you can get them in different flavours: normal (beef usually), veal, gulasz, curry and vegetarian.

M-G


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Bratwurst Boy
Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Mar 21, 08, 07:07  #100

Lukasz wrote:


I have only source in Polish ... Neewsweek PL edition ... (Merkel Polsh roots)


There is no mention of it in Germany (and we should know, don't you think?).
And just because parts of her family stem from what is now in Poland doesn't make them polish..or having polish roots...

Lukasz wrote:
"Leader of NPD pointed it in this way, sooner or later we are going to take Poland, in 20 years time, in 50 years time in 100 years time, we need to be patient and act step by step, try to expelle Poles ... or buy land there ...


Yeah...well...once they make the chancellor we can speak again...

(I once saw right wing Poles making the Sieg Heil greeting - sure sign of Poland going faschist soon, right?)

Lukasz wrote:

some ..... still live in past ... I hope it will change.


I think especially you should take that advise to heart Lukasz...

Lukasz wrote:
All in all, the policies of Germanisation of the Poznań area mostly failed.


The Polonization on the other hand didn't fail!
Right now there are not a lot Germans left in Poland....


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Lukasz
Edited by: Lukasz  Mar 21, 08, 07:25  #101

There is fragment of article form "Die Zeit" ...

Bratwurst Boy wrote:
I think especially you should take that advise to heart Lukasz...


as I said before, we are part of EU and we need to cooperate, I have voted on PO not on twins ...

Bratwurst Boy wrote:
The Polonization on the other hand didn't fail!Right now there are not a lot Germans left in Poland....


we jhave 2 or 3 representants of German miniority in Polish parlament ... so it isn't so bad.

Personaly I don't have problems with Germans I think we should start new page in our history and I believe it will happen. Poland is ready, I hope Germany is ready as well.

Lets talk about future or what we can do to have better relations.


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isthatu
Edited by: isthatu  Mar 21, 08, 07:27  #102

Bratwurst Boy wrote:
There will be no hunger in this land! Yummy!

Ouch,I leave it to students of Dutch/German C20th history to spot just how darkly ironic this comment is.....
BTW...Pis and Po.....ooh how I chortled when I read this....what a happy coincidence that the 2 main parties names come within a repeated last letter of well...p iss and p oo :)


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MareGaea
  Mar 21, 08, 07:34  #103

isthatu wrote:
how darkly ironic this comment is


You will be the minister of communication in Bratwurstania :)

M-G


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isthatu
  Mar 21, 08, 08:34  #104

that was pitch black mg :)
actualy,propaganda minister sounds fun....have to talk to crow ,see what pay and conditions I can expect.....


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noimmigration
Edited by: noimmigration  Mar 21, 08, 12:15  #105

the polish may hate the germans, but that doesnt stop them from begging for scrapsthrown to them by german and britain from the eu table.

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lesser
  Mar 21, 08, 14:57  #106

MareGaea wrote:
Small correction: the most enthousiastic soldiers in the Waffen SS were the Ukranians and the Lithuanians.


Lithuanians did not have Waffen SS...


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ogorek
  Mar 21, 08, 17:14  #107

MareGaea wrote:
Nobody asked the Silesian Germans if they wanted to leave. They either expelled them or raped/killed them. This is actually not a very nice part of Polish history, I wonder if the Poles consider their behaviour towards the Silesian Germans in the post-war years still as being justified or do they look back at this episode in shame?

Is this what you witnessed - or are you repeating what some other idiot told you?


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MareGaea
Edited by: MareGaea  Mar 21, 08, 17:22  #108

ogorek wrote:
Is this what you witnessed - or are you repeating what some other idiot told you?


Why is it that Poles always get so defensive when you point out an error in the past they made? Why do we all have to pity them (for good reason, though) and why do they always victimize themselves? The cleansing of Silesia and especially the cities of Wroclaw and Poznan is well documented and there is no need to deny it; it happened everywhere in former German territories, also in Poland.

Lesser: that Holland had a seperate division in the Waffen SS was merely due to the fact that Hitler cs saw them as brothers. It was forced upon the Dutch just like the Nazis forced other countries like Norway to do so. There were Lithuanians in the Waffen SS and some sources document Ukranians, Lithuanians and even Poles as their most enthousiastic guards in the concentration camps.


M-G


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ogorek
  Mar 21, 08, 17:28  #109

MareGaea wrote:
it was Nazi-Germany who was responsible for WW2 and indeed it were the Big Bad Germans who invaded loads of countries without there being an essential need to, just the hunger to posess the World.

The people of Europe were responsible for WWII.

There have always been - there are now - and there always will be people like Hitler in the world today. This cannot be helped. The way we deal with these people can.

In 1939, the countries of Europe all stood back in self interest - with their
"I'm alright Jack" mentallity, while Austria and Bohemia were taken and Poland crucified. UK, France, Russia, Itally together could have nutralised Hitler by October 1939. The Nazis were not 100% sure of their capabilities until they took Poland. They became cocky - and the rest is history.

" All that is needed for Evil to triumph,
is for the good man to do nothing."
W. Dwight Eisenhower


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MareGaea
  Mar 21, 08, 17:40  #110

ogorek wrote:
" All that is needed for Evil to triumph,
is for the good man to do nothing."
W. Dwight Eisenhower


Actually this is a quote from Edmund Burke.

The Second World War is in fact a prolongation of the First World War. And all parties involved in that war were responsible to more or lesser extent. The fact that the others stood by and watched Hitler go was mainly due to the fact that all remembered WW1 and did not want to repeat something like that. They simply thought that by giving in to Hitler, it would all blow over. Only with the threat to Poland they realised that it wouldn't. So in that sense they are co-responsible, but it was Nazi-Germany who created the sit.

M-G


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ogorek
  Mar 21, 08, 17:44  #111

MareGaea wrote:
Why is it that Poles always get so defensive when you point out an error in the past they made? Why do we all have to pity them (for good reason, though) and why do they always victimize themselves? The cleansing of Silesia and especially the cities of Wroclaw and Poznan is well documented and there is no need to deny it; it happened everywhere in former German territories, also in Poland.

Poles only get defensive when provoked. They feel obliged to correct the slander. When you publically quote history - make sure you know what the deal was.

Stalin had already drawn his new map of Europe at this time. Poland and Eastern Germany where to be communist. Poland was fighting with the red army to help defeat the Germans. There was no time for Polish soldiers/people to have sensitive debate about who was in which town. Poznan has always been Polish. Wroclaw started as a Bohemian town until it was taken by the Prussians, who were later taken by Germany.


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Lukasz
Edited by: Lukasz  Mar 22, 08, 04:35  #112

MareGaea wrote:
The cleansing of Silesia and especially the cities of Wroclaw and Poznan is well documented and there is no need to deny it; it happened everywhere in former German territories, also in Poland.


indeed ...

http://www.poznan-life.com/poznan/history

Poznan continued to grow and prosper, until Nazi invasion in 1939 made Poznan a German city again, and the German authorities started a programme of the "re-Germanization of Poznan," expelling some 100,000 Polish citizens to central Poland bringing German settlers into the city.


MareGaea wrote:
some sources document Ukranians, Lithuanians and even Poles as their most enthousiastic guards in the concentration camps.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_death_camp

Concerns about the use of the term led the Polish government to request that UNESCO change the official name of Auschwitz from "Auschwitz Concentration Camp" to "former Nazi German concentration camp Auschwitz-Birkenau." to make it clear that the concentration camp was operated by Germans, not Poles. On 28 Jun 2007 at its meeting in Christchurch, New Zealand, the World Heritage Committtee of UNESCO changed the name of the camp to "Auschwitz Birkenau. German Nazi Concentration and Extermination Camp (1940-1945)." Previously, some media, including Der Spiegel in Germany, had called the camp "Polish".


btw 6 mln Polish citizens killed 3 mln Jews 3 mln other religion ...


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Grzegorz_
  Mar 22, 08, 04:45  #113

MareGaea wrote:
The cleansing of Silesia and especially the cities of Wroclaw and Poznan is well documented


You are even too stupid to know that Poznań is not in Silesia. And Gerries generally got much better treatment than they deserved. Besides Polish-Gerrie relations shouldn't be your business, we can sort that out with Butty and you gay stay away.


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Lukasz
Edited by: Lukasz  Mar 22, 08, 05:15  #114

You know what is the worst, that we had here normal Germans not Eastern Germany nationalists like Bratwurst, do you remember The Falstaker or even person who decided to start this dicussion, normal people ... Yes it is problem, because on interntional arena Poland is ready to discusse everything but our relations are spoileb by people like Bratwurst, or simple eastern German nationalists. I think it will be better to ignore them and start discussion with normal people. As we can see history facts shows something much different than Bratwurs and it is clear, I think that Germans don't want to be only one bad character and do everything to show somebody in bad light... I hope not all germans are so stupid to start discussion with Poland where they have murdered 6 mln citizens 3 miln jews 3 mln other religion. Expelled milions of Poles form western part of Poland and eastern Germany and now like Bratwurst pretend to be victim ...I hope it is only syndrome of eastern Germans citizens some old people and young skinheads...


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Grounded
  Mar 22, 08, 05:17  #115

Lukasz wrote:
eastern Germans citizens


Last time I checked there wasnt such a thing as an East German citizen

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Lukasz
Edited by: Lukasz  Mar 22, 08, 05:19  #116

Grounded wrote:
Last time I checked there wasnt such a thing as an East German citizen

I think there is a little difference in political choices between eastern Germans and western Germans ... that is why I use eastern German citizen term.


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Grounded
  Mar 22, 08, 05:25  #117

Lukasz wrote:
I think there is a little difference in political choices between eastern Germans and western Germans ... that is why I use term eastern German citizen.


Wel I moved away from germany 8 years ago and havent paid much attention to politics (i know shame on me) but if you look at the proportions of unemployed people in the east compared to the west it is hardly surprising. The same problems exist in certain areas of poland (or any other country) where unemployment is high. Not that I condone racism in any way however we have to look at reasons why people vote extreme nationalist parties and solve the problems instead of pointing fingers at each other

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Lukasz
Edited by: Lukasz  Mar 22, 08, 05:38  #118

I hope everything will be ok, I think zankel opinion from the begining is worth reading, there is no pressure in Poland to beat Germans or whatever, tourists are treaten well and friendly. young people are young people they haven't seen WWII and I simple hope situation will be better. We are members of EU to move forward.

We play some games with Bratwurst here but normal people can have problems to recoginise reality ...

personaly I don't like Germany style or way of behaviour, music ... it is just I don't like. Germans prefere Russian Vodka than Polish, French prefere Polish vodka than Russian ... simple. it is my personal opinion, as I said some Germans are ok some are not generaly I find some different cultures more interesting for me ...

what is more there is 1 mln Poles in Germany and 200 000 Germans in Poland ... so situation can't be that hard. What I have notcied at the begining main problem are Geries. from eatern part of German country ...


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lesser
  Mar 22, 08, 06:46  #119

Grounded wrote:
Wel I moved away from germany 8 years ago and havent paid much attention to politics (i know shame on me)


It is not a shame if you don't vote.


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Bratwurst Boy
Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Mar 22, 08, 10:39  #120

Lukasz wrote:
You know what is the worst, that we had here normal Germans not Eastern Germany nationalists like Bratwurst, do you remember The Falstaker or even person who decided to start this dicussion, normal people ...


Na ja...it's not as if you Lukasz represent a majority of Poles....not even here on the board! :


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