Goverment is the problem!

ZUS is not obligatory Lesser. If u have umowa o dzielo then u don't need to pay it. It just means u don't get a pension at the end of ur working career.

Oh, do u really think ZUS are that poor? Come on, they are fly and have all they need and more. This is due to the current set-up and also pulling a few fast ones. I c what u r trying to say with ur baby boom statement but what goes around comes around. More workers now means more funds in the coffers of ZUS.

What r u talking about deals for? U have to pay if u have umowa o prace or umowa zlecenie (if u have a firm). There is no negotiation involved, u pay or pay in a bad way, with a fine.

Lesser, I don't think u have even heard of a will or intestate succession. Have u? If sb dies, he probably has a will in which property division is expressly stated. If not, the laws of intestate succession apply and certain standard rules kick in. What do u mean everything is lost? I don't understand what u r getting at.

Please explain more clearly

You need to understand that powerful mainstream parties will do everything to avoid discussion with some small unknown party. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose. This is pure logic.



Of course, everybody can create a political party, however without media support they would not exist in voters minds. So, if you are not some wealthy media magnate your party wont by showed in mainstream TV or newspapers. Even if they would mention such party once for a year then in some negative context, because they support some other party or tolerate two or three the most popular ones.

Beside of that, you also live in officially democratic country. However like in other countries, practically it looks differently. Your countryman rejected constitution in referendum and you will have it anyway. So your government is not a problem you say?



This is something else, you are not employed permanently. Anyway this is practiced mostly by students. You pay tax and later receive tax return. The problem is that they set maximal tax return about 600 PLN per year(or 700 PLN). So basically they steal your money shamelessly. If you have tax return on internet or some other things then you lose even more.



They are, according to Robert Gwiazdowski, the Charmain of the Management Board of ZUS.



We have less not more.



My point was that if they would propose you such a deal to sign then nobody would do it. Thus this is obligatory.


I'm talking about money that you pay during your life to ZUS. If a man dies at 64 (for example) then his family receive nothing except few pennies for a coffin. This a total thievery.

I c ur point now concerning the thievery. If u work for 40 years in ur career, contributing around 140,000zł in that time 2 ZUS, and u die 1 year into ur retirement, then that's a huge profit for ZUS per person. I agree that there should be a redistribution of wealth here. But that's the nature of insurance, the very reason why many Americans don't want to take out health insurance policies. U insure against sth that may or may not happen, if it doesn't then tough titties. It's seen as a privilege to be covered. Just be thankful it's not BUPA.

I agree that it is obligatory here under most conditions, enough said. I didn't pay it under umowa o dzieło but pay it now under umowa zlecenie.

Simple math Lesser, less unemployment, more people working = more contributions to ZUS bcoz it's obligatory. More Poles are returning to Poland which will mean even more payments being made.

Exactly, he is the Chairman of ZUS, he would say that. Also, what is poor to him may not be to other people. It's not a huge, private multinational for profit concern like BP or Shell, it is a public body. They have fundamentally different remits.

ZUS is not obligatory under umowa o dzieło. Whose to say it isn't permanent? If I worked for Speed Callan indefinitely, I would have been permanent in one sense, thus avoiding the necessity of making ZUS payments

Actually this guy was one of few people in such public companies who does not bootlicking to any party. Others usually hide true situation to avoid difficulties for a government.



I really don't have desire to go into such bureaucratic details because it makes me sick. However umowa o dzieło and umowa o prace are two different thing, this is not only ZUS which makes the difference. For example many jobs cannot be done under umowa o dzielo (which demands certain final effect (thus also my "pernament" suggestion ) and how to say this "a dose of independence"). Here is more in Polish. URL

Publicly he doesn't bootlick maybe but privately, now that's a different story.

OK, let's avoid bureaucratic discussions, we both know the system.

Kinda up **** creek without a paddle though Lesser, ur whole thread tacitly relates to bureaucracy

I don't need ZUS, there is obvious conflict of the interest between them and myself. Both sides clearly want my earned money. Thinking about my pension I would send my cash to bank or some investing funds but never to thieving ZUS!

ZUS is a standard insurance offering with fixed rates. I pay the same amount each month and acknowledge my obligation to do so. Conflict of interest? It's a legal obligation, u can't opt out of mandatory payments

ZUS claim that they operate with your money, while in fact this is hidden tax because in the end you wont get all your money back if anything.



This is legal obligation because it fits to corrupt bureaucrats, time to change it! It is mandatory because sane person would not got involved willingly.

lesser, do u understand the nature of insurance? I think ZUS started to get a bad name and people just jumped on the bandwagon without thinking why it got this name. Having a form of insurance issued by the state is quite normal. ZUS may not be ideal in the sense of making grossly inflated payments but the need for the system shouldn't be too much in question.

to sum lesser up: he doesn't seem to agree with the FACT that there is duality to things in life. May it be a government or an egg - take your pick Lesser;)

Duzo halasu o nic;)

He is a proponent of abolition and not modification. I will say that the Polish govt, for a right-wing establishment, is more interventionist than its place on the political spectrum would suggest, but u have to look at why. Poland was under communism for years and the older generation still expect some kind of regulation in key areas. Abolishing ZUS so quickly would lead to archaic complications

I don't want their insurance! Don't you understand that if you chose the easiest solution and transfer your money to bank instead ZUS you will do hell better business? Are you masochist or bureaucrat?? :)



I have stated earlier in this discussion that I don't want abolish ZUS immediately, this is final destination of this reform.



I don't get what is your point.



No, this is foundation of the socialist country that need to be destroyed. And this is a lot of cash...

Socialist country because of state insurance? I paid to the state in Japan too, Japanese Medical Assistance (JMA), and found it to be quite normal. I claimed back 34,000Y there for a CAT scan, after paying 6,000Y a month for 2 years. It was compulsory. Japan isn't ur exemplar of socialism.

I am a little disappointed in that I have to pay for health insurance that I don't need as I have another document but that's the way the cookie crumbles. I need to renew my E-211

I do transfer my money to the bank, and ZUS separately

Which solution brings you more profits?



Any compulsory insurance is a socialist solution and if Japan installing such European ideas it is not good trend.

Well, my earnings are transferred to my bank, that's what I meant. I transfer ZUS money online.

Why is it so bad? It ensures that the state has some funds and can cover u in the event of illness or accidents. I'm not a classic socialist but some socialist logic stands to reason

OK, so how do you think if you would transfer all money that you pay to ZUS on your private bank account, then in the end you would have more or less money?

I just don't understand why you don't want your own money...

What would be a good amount per month to pay then?

This is up to you to decide. I asked if you would transfer the same amount from ZUS to bank, what would be more profitable in the future?

Then why do more people not do that then? Maybe it would be more profitable but where are the guarantees? What do u do then?

What guaranties do you want?

That sneaky provisions and smallprint, scattered throughout private agreements, wouldn't trip me up. Explain ur private scheme to me then, I have no experience of such things in Poland

But you wrote yourself that you transfer part of your money to bank account. You are not afraid now?



Very simple, you could do with your money what you want, the easiest and the safest version is keep money on private bank account.

My wages are transferred into mu account is what I meant. By keeping money, u r not paying compulsory payments. I'm not getting u

Exactly, if you have rachunek oszczednosciowy amount of your money growing. While in ZUS you will get less than you paid, plus your family get nothing if you would pass away.

That's what my girl said, savings bills or sth like that? I couldn't see ZUS going out of their way to pass money to Scotland in the event of my death.

Yes, what I want to add is that pensioners must also pay a tax from their pensions. This is just another example of socialist thievery. Of course socialists deeply care about poor pensioners/ sarcasm!

Paying a tax from ur pension is ridiculous. The system throws up some weird outcomes. I know a woman who worked 2 years of her life and she gets a pension of 3,000zł. Another worked hard all of her life and got a pittance, 1,200zł or sth like that. What a farce!! Socialists true colours, Labour Party, UK, nuff said

Populism of politicians and interest of bureaucracy to extend their influence, more complicated tax system create more jobs for them.