"A" and "I" usage in Polish language

SemsemThreads: 18 Posts: 25 Joined: Dec 28, 09 ♂	Sep 26, 10, 04:20 #1
Both in Polish mean "and", but when is one used in favor of the other? Or are they completely interchangeable?

nottThreads: 6 Posts: 1,271 Joined: Jun 2, 10 ♂	Sep 26, 10, 09:43 #2
Semsem: are they completely interchangeable? Not at all. Poles are dumb, and Brits are smart; Polacy są tępi, a Brytole cwani. Poles are dumb, and Brits are dumb. Polacy są tępi, i Brytole są tępi. You use 'a' when you might use 'but' instead of 'and' without much changing the sense. You can't use 'i' then.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07 ♂	Sep 26, 10, 09:58 #3
nott: You use 'a' when you might use 'but' that's right thus nott: Poles are dumb, BUT Brits are smart; Polacy są tępi, a Brytole cwani. cwani/y isn't smart though. it means sly, shifty or cunning.

poglisz	Sep 26, 10, 10:54 #4
Chaps, no need to call anyone smart or dumb ;-)

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07 ♂	Sep 26, 10, 11:34 #5
poglisz: poglisz it's just an example..

cinekThreads: 1 Posts: 264 Joined: Nov 16, 07 ♂	Sep 28, 10, 14:50 #6
Semsem: when is one used in favor of the other? It's easy. 'I' connects similarities while 'a' connects differences. E.g. Jabłko jest czerwone i wiśnia jest czerwona (both are red - similar) Jabłko jest czerwona a śliwka jest niebieska (one is red, the other is blue - different) There was a thread on this already. Cinek

KsysiaThreads: 39 Posts: 545 Joined: May 6, 09 ♀	Sep 28, 10, 15:20 #7
I wonder what you make of this: Człowiek na księżycu a sprawa polska Man on the moon and the Polish Cause

alexw68

Sep 28, 10, 15:38 #8

Ksysia:

Człowiek na księżycu a sprawa polska
Man on the moon and the Polish Cause

The meaning's in the words that aren't here - a trick you can pull off in languages with overt morphology, but just doesn't work in English.
Among other candidates, one interpretation of the above might be

[They've already put a] man on the moon, but the Polish Question [remains {unresolved}].

Ksysia - like the quote. Where's it from?

♂

Sep 28, 10, 17:55 #9

The general rule is that both "i" and "a" in Polish connect two clauses that can function independently. Hence they are paratactic coordinators or conjunctions. These can be divided further into connecting or contrasting. Unfortunately, in Polish "a" can be either, while "i" in addition to connecting can also be resultive.

alexw68:

The meaning's in the words that aren't here - a trick you can pull off in languages with overt morphology, but just doesn't work in English.

Except that "Man on the moon and the Polish Cause" is perfectly well formed and understood English sentence. It is also as close a translation of the Polish version as it gets.

alexw68:

[They've already put a] man on the moon, but the Polish Question [remains {unresolved}].

Not at all. All those optional phrases are bogus. The sentence in Polish does not state that they did put a man on the moon, or that the Polish question (whatever it is) is resolved or not.

alexw68	Edited by: alexw68 Sep 28, 10, 18:05 #10
z_darius: Except that "Man on the moon and the Polish Cause" is perfectly well formed and understood English sentence No it is not. No verb, see? No sense either.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	Sep 28, 10, 18:21 #11
alexw68: No it is not. No verb, see? And who says a phrase needs a verb? Or that two phrases need a verb? Btw. there is no verb in either version, see? alexw68: No sense either. Makes perfect sense and that's exactly the structure native speakers of English would, and do, use.

alexw68	Edited by: alexw68 Sep 28, 10, 18:24 #12
Sentence != phrase. Try and be consistent at least. And as an English native speaker, I raise you...

♂

Sep 28, 10, 19:06 #13

alexw68:

Sentence != phrase. Try and be consistent at least.

my error in the post before doesn't change the fact that the translation is correct.

alexw68:

And as an English native speaker, I raise you...

Haha! I hope you don't work as a teacher of English in Poland.
See here:

Russia and the Polish question, 1907--1917: Nationality and diplomacy
by Mankoff, Jeffrey Aaron, PhD, YALE UNIVERSITY, 2006

W. Averell Harriman and the Polish Question, December 1943-August 1944. , William Larsh

EARL RUSSELL'S BLAWGOWRIE SPEECH AND THE POLISH QUESTION. New York Times

That ought to be enough.

alexw68	Sep 28, 10, 19:10 #14
Yawn. Whatever. No, not an English teacher in Poland. We'll just quietly ignore the PhD in Cognitive Linguistics, eh?

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	Sep 28, 10, 19:31 #15
alexw68: We'll just quietly ignore the PhD in Cognitive Linguistics, eh? Not bad for a guy who can't understand rather simple phrases in English.

KsysiaThreads: 39 Posts: 545 Joined: May 6, 09 ♀	Sep 28, 10, 21:11 #16
alexw68 alexw68: Ksysia - like the quote. Where's it from? it's been there since the 19th, and is generally used to mock the political barratry we are forever prone to. Słoń a sprawa polska RPG a sprawa Polska - a seminar invariably held in each of the RPG conventions. Followed by panel discussion 'Superiority of Fantasy over the SF, or otherwise'. Naprawa gwarancyjna a sprawa polska

alexw68

Sep 28, 10, 21:19 #17

Thanks. Thought there was more to this than met the eye.

z_dariusz - observe. You are not a Jedi yet. Meaning is conferred on these verbless phrases only through context. In the case of the titles you quote, that context is the text of the paper they head. Chomsky-style 'lazy empiricism' can prove well-formedness but it misses entirely the meaning invested into a semantically incomplete phrase by the beholder.

nottThreads: 6 Posts: 1,271 Joined: Jun 2, 10 ♂	Sep 29, 10, 02:34 #18
alexw68: Chomsky-style 'lazy empiricism' can prove well-formedness but it misses entirely the meaning invested into a semantically incomplete phrase by the beholder. Wow, Alex, and I remember you once saying that you can learn something from me too :) I am bigger by a span now, thank you :) Allergy Caution: does not contain traces of sarcasm.

alexw68	Oct 4, 10, 09:09 #19
nott: Allergy Caution: does not contain traces of sarcasm. Yea, right :) Sorry, people, got a bit up meself back there. Let this be a lesson in why NOT to post on forums when jetlagged :(

mafketisThreads: 17 Posts: 1,880 Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂	Oct 4, 10, 09:58 #20
Getting back on topic, I've found the following is a useful heuristic: i = and (also) a = and (on the other hand) when in doubt see which of the above would not change the meaning and use it.

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