Biernik czy narzędnik (Accusative or Instrumental)

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Nov 3, 11, 15:47 #1

Hi folks

Can anyone here check if the following sentences make sense and why if my choice of accusative/intrumental are correct. I think I have the correct endings - my explanations are given. Could anyone give a check over ....

Proszę małą kawą.
(małą kawą = Accusative case - the direct object of the verb).

Marek pije herbatę z cytryną.
(herbatę = Accusative. Cytryną = Instrumental as it comes after z).

Anna pije sok pomaranczowy z lodem.
(lodem = Instrumental - it appears after z).

Proszę kawę z mlekiem.
(kawę = Accusative as it's the direct object of the verb. Mlekiem = Instrumental as it's after z).

Jem bułką z szynką.
(bułką = Accusative - object of verb. Szynką = Instrumental, after z)

Sophia Loren jest włoską aktorką.
(włoską aktorką = Instrumental).

Pije wodę mineralną z cytrynę.
(wodę mineralną = Accusative. cytrynę = Instrumental, after z).

Thaks everyone

♀

Edited by: strzyga Nov 3, 11, 15:57 #2

Chrzaszcz:

Proszę małą kawą.
(małą kawą = Accusative case - the direct object of the verb).

małą kawę; kawą is Instrumental

Marek pije herbatę z cytryną.(herbatę = Accusative. Cytryną = Instrumental as it comes after z).
Anna pije sok pomaranczowy z lodem.(lodem = Instrumental - it appears after z).
Proszę kawę z mlekiem.(kawę = Accusative as it's the direct object of the verb. Mlekiem = Instrumental as it's after z).

these are correct

Jem bułką z szynką.(bułką = Accusative - object of verb. Szynką = Instrumental, after z)

bułkę - again, you've used Instrumental ending instead of Acc

Sophia Loren jest włoską aktorką.(włoską aktorką = Instrumental).
ok

Pije wodę mineralną z cytrynę.(wodę mineralną = Accusative. cytrynę = Instrumental, after z).
z cytryną

Thaks everyone

ChrzaszczThreads: 19 Posts: 136 Joined: Jul 4, 11 ♂	Nov 3, 11, 16:08 #3
Thanks strzyga! So, to double check, I can use the Instrumental case if it follows 'z' 'with'. Accusative is used for the direct object of the verb? Were my explanations correct? Cheers

♀

Nov 3, 11, 16:16 #4

Chrzaszcz:

I can use the Instrumental case if it follows 'z' 'with'.

yes, Instrumental always follows z, but sometimes it also appears with no z:
Sophia Loren jest włoską aktorką - one of your sentences
Poplamiłem sobie spodnie kawą (I've stained my pants with coffee - here you have with in English, but no z in Polish).

Chrzaszcz:

Accusative is used for the direct object of the verb?

yes

Chrzaszcz:

Were my explanations correct?

the explanations were correct, you've just got some of the endings mixed up

cheers :)

ChrzaszczThreads: 19 Posts: 136 Joined: Jul 4, 11 ♂	Nov 3, 11, 16:26 #5
Many thanks again strzyga - you're a star. Just a question - have you studied linguistics. You seem (amongst others here) to really know your languages! thanks

♀

Nov 3, 11, 16:55 #6

Chrzaszcz:

have you studied linguistics

Just a bit, I'm a graduate of English studies and we had some classes on linguistics but I'm not a linguist as such. The Polish grammar I know comes from the elementary/secondary school and is therefore very different to what you guys studying Polish are taught. I've no idea how many declension patterns we have in Polish and so on, just as many English speakers are not aware of the structure of English tenses. When it comes to more complicated grammar issues, fellow English speakers who've learnt Polish as a foreign language may be of better help to you. Natives can spot the mistakes, but aren't always able to explain why they are mistakes :)

♂

Nov 3, 11, 18:29 #7

Well, I'm impressed!

I'm no linguist either. I just have an interest in languages. Polish is the first language I've had to 'deconstruct' as it were to learn all the aspects of speech. I've done elementary Japanese, Russian, German, French, all to pre-GCSE level alas no deconstruction was necessary, just learning reams of vocab and a few verbs. For Polish, I do want to learn as much on the 7 cases, and it'l give me a solid foundation to build on.

Cheers!

♀

Nov 3, 11, 20:21 #8

Chrzaszcz:

I'm no linguist either. I just have an interest in languages. Polish is the first language I've had to 'deconstruct' as it were to learn all the aspects of speech. I've done elementary Japanese, Russian, German, French, all to pre-GCSE level alas no deconstruction was necessary, just learning reams of vocab and a few verbs. For Polish, I do want to learn as much on the 7 cases, and it'l give me a solid foundation to build on.

That's an impressive list. Do you use these languages for any end, like work or travelling, or is it just a hobby?
In any case, you're a seasoned learner, if I may say so, which certainly gives you a good footing for every next language you might want to learn (unless you decide to stick with Polish, which would keep you busy for the next ten years or so). The case system is similar to many other European languages, the verb system however is more unique and troublesome. Your experience with Russian may help a bit though.

Lyzko	Nov 3, 11, 22:22 #9
Only with Russian, don't make the mistake I used to make and assume that look-alike, sound-alike words are identical in both languages!!!! For instance "czas" and "chyas", "godzina" and "godina" as well as "pukać" vs. "pukat" do NOT mean the same thing from Russian to Polish or vice-versa-:))

♂

Nov 3, 11, 23:00 #10

Cheers Strzyga

As I mentioned, they're to pre GCSE level, and just enough to get me by. I do intend, however, to study Polish to a much higher level. Would you mind just looking over these five Biernik (Accusative) sentences.

...or if anyone else could...

We're given nouns and adjectives in parentheses. We then have to complete the sentence in the accusative case...

a) (mały kot) Mam MAŁEGO KOTA.
KOTA is female.

b) (młodszy brat) Mam MŁODSZEGO BRATA.
BRATA is male

c) (polska muzyka) Lubię POLSKĄ MUSYKĘ.
MUZYKA is female.

d) (ten pisarz) Lubie TEN PISARZ.
stuck on this one - Pisarz means 'writer' and it's a male noun. Is it classed as animate or inanimate? A 'writer' is living isn't he/she? So, looking at my declension table, I'm doubtful the answer is 'tenego pisarza'? So, plumped for ten pisarz.

e) (małe dziecko) Oni maja MAŁE DZIECKO.
First of all, is 'dziecko' male, female, or neuter? I didn't know this, so again, left it s male dziecko...

Could anyone give me any explation on my points? Again, I'm sorry for having to ask all these rather dull grammatical questions, but I'm rather astonished at all the positive help I've received!!! Cheers folks.

♂

Nov 3, 11, 23:20 #11

Hi Lyzko.

Russian. It wasn't very indepth, only a level one type certified course. Tourist lingo was mainly studied. I was hooked though. I felt a certain sense of satisfaction being able to decipher the Cyrillic script. Once you've learnt it, it's there to stay. There are similarities between Russian and Polish - the only two words I remember of hand are 'dom/domu' (house) and 'Gdie/Gdzie' (where).

I would like to take Russian further at some point. How about yourself? Have you done a degree in linguistics/languages?

♀

Nov 3, 11, 23:22 #12

hi Chrząszcz :)

Chrzaszcz:

a) (mały kot) Mam MAŁEGO KOTA.KOTA is female.

Kot is male, but you've got the Acc right.

Chrzaszcz:

b) (młodszy brat) Mam MŁODSZEGO BRATA.BRATA is malec) (polska muzyka) Lubię POLSKĄ MUSYKĘ.MUZYKA is female.

ok

Chrzaszcz:

d) (ten pisarz) Lubie TEN PISARZ.stuck on this one - Pisarz means 'writer' and it's a male noun. Is it classed as animate or inanimate? A 'writer' is living isn't he/she? So, looking at my declension table, I'm doubtful the answer is 'tenego pisarza'? So, plumped for ten pisarz.

TEGO PISARZA. Male and animate, even if he's already dead :)
The rule is standing for all the male profession names: tego piekarza, tego nauczyciela, tego prezydenta. Also for words that don't denote a profession but describe somebody in some way: nudziarz (a bore), mędrzec (a man of wisdom), pajac (a jerk), etc.

Chrzaszcz:

e) (małe dziecko) Oni maja MAŁE DZIECKO.First of all, is 'dziecko' male, female, or neuter? I didn't know this, so again, left it s male dziecko...

Dziecko is neuter, you got it right.

Dawaj dalej :)

ChrzaszczThreads: 19 Posts: 136 Joined: Jul 4, 11 ♂	Nov 3, 11, 23:50 #13
.... czy na pewno????? Let me have another look at more cases and I am sure I will provide you with more questions. You've been a fantastic help (as with several others here in the forum). dobra robota!!!! :-)

strzygaThreads: 4 Posts: 986 Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀	Nov 4, 11, 00:07 #14
Chrzaszcz: dobra robota!!!! :-) Not bad at all :))) For a change, you might want to do a pronunciation exercise. Try to say: Cześć Strzyga, tu Chrząszcz. Record the sentence and send me the file :)

Lyzko	Nov 4, 11, 00:51 #15
Indeed I have, beetle! My degree was in Germanic and Slavic linguistics with an emphasis on the lexical semantics of false friend cognates-:) I find interesting the way certain words in different Slavic, i.e related, languages diverge in their meanings or disappear completely from another language, e.g. Russian 'vremya' is exclusive to Russian. Polish? Czech? No similar equivalent.

♂

Nov 4, 11, 12:52 #16

Blimey Lyzko!

Well impressed! What you studied means very little to me! I'm interested in etymology, especially how words have completely changed their meanings. Here are a few:

Artificial

This originally meant ‘full of artistic or technical skill’. Now its meaning has a very different meaning.

Nice

This comes from the Latin ‘not to know’. Originally a ‘nice person’ was someone who was ignorant or unaware.

Awful

This meant ‘full of awe’ i.e. something wonderful, delightful, amazing. However, over time it has evolved to mean exactly the opposite.

Brave

This once was used to signify cowardice. Indeed, its old meaning lives on in the word ‘bravado’.

Manufacture

From the Latin meaning ‘to make by hand’ this originally signified things that were created by craftsmen. Now the opposite, made by machines, is its meaning.

Counterfeit

This once meant a perfect copy. Now it means anything but.

I did once have ambitions to do Linguistics at uni, but got a good job, and so it's still an unfulfilled ambition. Well done Lyzko!

Lyzko	Nov 4, 11, 13:16 #17
I was aware of all of these, except for 'nice'; there ya got me fair and square, kiddo! Interesting that in Geman 'Kunst' means 'art', related also to 'kuenstlich' or 'ARTificial', 'gekuenstelt' for 'contrived' etc... both derived in German from the verb 'koennen' = to be able to (do something), i.e. if you're able to do something, you are an 'artist' (Kuenstler = lit. canner, candoer)

ChrzaszczThreads: 19 Posts: 136 Joined: Jul 4, 11 ♂	Nov 4, 11, 13:33 #18
You got me there too! Language is such a diverse topic! It's such a shame the spark didn't ignite when I was at school. Oh well, there a loads of language resources out there including of course this forum! Durchgebraten! :-)

Lyzko	Nov 4, 11, 13:42 #19
Paniert mit Semmelbroeseln, he-he! :-) If you cook too long, ya can't taste a thing (:- lol

♂

Nov 4, 11, 14:33 #20

Chrzaszcz:

I can use the Instrumental case if it follows 'z' 'with'.

Well there are two different z prepositions (formerly different but pronounced the same in modern Polish)

z (usually something like s or sa in other Slavic languages) = with, which is always followed by instrumental

z (usually something like iz in other Slavic languages) = from a place (or substance), which is always followed by the genitive

Quick note: the hardest part of the case system is the nominantive / accusative / genitive (and learning for masculine nouns when the accusative is like the nominative and when it's like the genitive). Buckle down and get that straight and the rest is (relatively) easy.

Lyzko	Nov 4, 11, 15:21 #21
The latter's tough for foreigners because of the animate/inanimate masculine distinctions in the Acc. which then behaves as though it were genitive, then back to accusative again once a non-living or inanimate noun appears! This however is peculiar to Slavonic languages-:)

ChrzaszczThreads: 19 Posts: 136 Joined: Jul 4, 11 ♂	Nov 4, 11, 21:54 #22
Hey Lyzko and Makfetis Both of you sound as if you know your stuff!!!! I thought the genetive was used for possessions! Why is the genitive used for going from a place/substance? Could you give an example? Chrąszcz

♂

Nov 5, 11, 10:09 #23

The plain genitive is used for possession in the third person

dom mojego brata (my brother's house)

house my-gen brother-gen

usually the order is possessed possessor, as above, but in some cases the possessor usually (must?) come(s) first

jego dom (his house)

pani syn (your-formal-feminine son)

genitive z

z Warszawy (from Warsaw)

zrobiony ze szkła (make from glass)

contrast that with od (from a person)

list od mojego brata (a letter from my brother)

Again, memorize the nominative-accusative-genitive paradigms of about 100 nouns (and the adjective forms that go with them) and learn to use them without hesitation and the rest of the cases won't be very difficult

Lyzko

Nov 5, 11, 13:24 #24

...or even more to the (confusing!!!) point: Kindly compare...then scream-:))LOL

Widzę mojego brata. = I see my brother. ('brat' - animate masculine noun) sentence case: Acc., case ending here: Gen.
Widzę swój nowy czerwony samochód. = I see my [very own] new red car ('samochód' - INanimate masculine noun)
sentence case: Acc., case ending here: Acc.

Just multiply the above examples umpteen fold and you'll see why Polish grammar might on occasion drive even a confirmed tea-totler to drink!

ChrzaszczThreads: 19 Posts: 136 Joined: Jul 4, 11 ♂	Nov 5, 11, 23:29 #25
Dziękuję bardzo Mafketis, Lyzko i strzyga!! I have a little bad news. My Polish mate who was teaching me Polish for GCSE has moved away!!!!! ====----> NEW TOPIC!

♂

Nov 23, 11, 22:05 #26

Cześć wszyscy - more questions.

Would anyone just checking through these statements to see if I have the correct endings (mianownik, narzędnik lub biernik)...
(Got to choose the correct endings - my answers are in bold)

1. Ten samochod jest stary / stara / stare. (nominative)
2. Moja rodzina jest duży / duża / duże. (nominative)
3. Ona jest sympatyczna / sympatycną kobietą. (instrumental)
4. Oni są dobry / dobre / dobrymi rodzicami. (instrumental)
5. Mam małego / mały / małej psa. (accusative)
6. Lubie angielska / angielską literaturę. (instrumental)
7. Znam tego wysokim / wysokiego / wysoka mezczyzne. (nominative)
8. Mam wysoki / wysokiego / wysokim wujka. (accusative)
9. Krzyś jest mały / małym / małe dzieckiem. (instrumental)
10 Żywiec to polskie / polska / polskiego piwo. (nominative)

:-)

catsoldierThreads: 90 Posts: 698 Joined: Sep 27, 09 ♂	Nov 23, 11, 22:25 #27
No.7 looks fishy. No.10 to polskie piwo

ChrzaszczThreads: 19 Posts: 136 Joined: Jul 4, 11 ♂	Nov 23, 11, 22:31 #28
80% - not bad! Is no. 10 the accusative? Not sure on no. 7 - wysokim (instrumental)? Thanks Catsoldier.

catsoldierThreads: 90 Posts: 698 Joined: Sep 27, 09 ♂	Edited by: catsoldier Nov 23, 11, 22:56 #29
Chrzaszcz: 80% - not bad!Is no. 10 the accusative?Not sure on no. 7 - wysokim (instrumental)?Thanks Catsoldier. Your welcome, although it is the blind leading the blind until someone comes along and tells us how wrong we are ! :-) No. 10 sorry, not sure. Nominative I would say because of to. Piwo is neutral(not polska because that would go with a feminine noun)

Lyzko	Nov 23, 11, 23:19 #30
'Znam tego wysokiEGO mężczyni.' would be correct here, I think-:) - After all, it's animate masculine accusative, but with genitive endings. 'Żywiec to polskIE piwo' is the correct choice. The rest look fine to me!

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