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Changing punctuation?

posts: 23

♂

Jan 25, 11, 06:28 #1

According to Polish nroms the comma is used to set whole numbers off from fractions, hence 3,75 means three and three quarters. However, ever more frequently the full stop or point (.) is being used for this purpsoe according to Western norms.
And conversely, the full stop or point is used in Polish to set off thousands, hence 5.200.120
reads pięć milionów dwieście tysięcy sto dwadzieścia (five million two hundred thousand one hundred and twenty). And again the Western comma is creeping in: 5,200,120.
As regards clock times, 5.37 is used for five thirty-seven, but now now the colon is creeping in: 5:37.
My question is, has the august Polish Academy (PAN) or whoever it is that sets linguistic standards spoken out on this? Which are the correct forms? Are both now acceptable? Which do you use?

alexw68	Jan 25, 11, 09:11 #2
Polonius3: whoever it is that sets linguistic standards On matters like this, it's probably Bill Gates. For what it's worth, the milk still comes in 3,2% cartons.

StuThreads: 27 Posts: 1,109 Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂	Jan 25, 11, 09:46 #3
Polonius3: Western comma is creeping in It's not Western, Polonius. It's English. In German, French and Dutch we still use the comma for decimals, the dot for setting off the thousands (or sometimes a space - eg. 80 000). Time can either be written with a dot or a colon. Anyway ... it's not "western", as you seem to think.

VarsovianThreads: 91 Posts: 568 Joined: Nov 23, 06 ♂	Jan 25, 11, 10:24 #4
Stu - a rare voice of reason

TeffleThreads: 28 Posts: 2,105 Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂	Jan 25, 11, 10:32 #5
Stu: Anyway ... it's not "western", as you seem to think. Speaks volumes about the general stance of Polonius about "the west" then.

VarsovianThreads: 91 Posts: 568 Joined: Nov 23, 06 ♂	Jan 25, 11, 11:35 #6
I do get the occasional Pole correcting my written English ... though of course I double-check (I'm not perfect) before telling him precisely why he's wrong.

♂

Jan 25, 11, 11:35 #7

Italian (from Corriere dello Sera):
* interpellate 2.200 mamme dei Paesi
* Record del freddo in Italia: -48,3 gradi
* Registrato lo scorso 27 dicembre 2010 alle ore 4,30
* Aggiornato alle 10:53

So in Italian they also use the comma to separate time.

Spanish (from Expansion):
* Así, en 2011 espera que la economía se acelere un 0,6%
* El Dow cierra al borde del 12.000 en su mejor sesión del año
* 11:23 Renfe obtiene por primera vez beneficios en alta velocidad

Portuguese (from Diario de Noticias):
* 25 de Janeiro de 2011 10:29
* 4,01 euros de preço corrigido
* 1.250 Hotéis em Portugal

Anyway ... I guess all this is ample proof that Polonius' claim that his examples of the use of punctuation is "western", is wrong.

♂

Jan 25, 11, 13:23 #8

Stu:

Anyway ... it's not "western", as you seem to think.

Does "western" here mean "american"? Yes, it may mean "of the American Wild West".

Stu:

It's not Western, Polonius. It's English.
In German, French and Dutch we still use the comma for decimals, the dot for setting off the thousands (or sometimes a space - eg. 80 000).

It's not Western, Polonius. It's not English, Stu. These days it's Anglo-Saxon.
The Polish norm follows exactly the Western European norm. I suspect the norm could have come into Polish via French, or if it was adopted earlier, via Italian or German. The same story can be observed with the word 'bilion' which in French and in Polish is called 'milliard' or 'miliard', wheras the Polish 'bilion' equals one thousand of Anglo-Saxon billions.

VarsovianThreads: 91 Posts: 568 Joined: Nov 23, 06 ♂	Jan 25, 11, 13:43 #9
The British billion was the same as the Polish billion when I was young ...

♂

Edited by: skysoulmate Jan 25, 11, 13:50 #10

alexw68:

On matters like this, it's probably Bill Gates.

01011001 01100101 01110011 00101100 00100000 01101001 01110100 00100111 01110011 00100000 01000010 01101001 01101100 01101100 00100000 01000111 01100001 01110100 01100101 01110011 00100111 01110011 00100000 01100110 01100001 01110101 01101100 01110100 00100001

or

Yes, it's Bill Gates's fault!

(it really does say that, check it yourself :)

Varsovian:

The British billion was the same as the Polish billion when I was young ...

Are you getting old Varsovian? :)

How many is a billion?

In British English, a billion used to be equivalent to a million million (i.e. 1,000,000,000,000), while in American English it has always equated to a thousand million (i.e. 1,000,000,000). British English has now adopted the American figure, though, so that a billion equals a thousand million in both varieties of English.

The same sort of change has taken place with the meaning of trillion. In British English, a trillion used to mean a million million million (i.e. 1,000,000,000,000,000,000). Nowadays, it's generally held to be equivalent to a million million (1,000,000,000,000), as it is in American English.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/page/114

VarsovianThreads: 91 Posts: 568 Joined: Nov 23, 06 ♂	Jan 25, 11, 13:59 #11
The beer used to taste better ... and as for the youth of today ...

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,834 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	Jan 25, 11, 14:35 #12
Thanks for enlightening me aboout Dutch, Italian, German et al practices. So what is the Polish norm at present? Or is it anythign goes?

alexw68	Jan 25, 11, 14:44 #13
Polonius3: And again the Western comma is creeping in: 5,200,120. Polonius3: So what is the Polish norm at present? You were telling us, I thought.

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,834 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	Feb 12, 11, 22:58 #14
At Warsaw's Chopin Airport departures and arrivals are listed with a colon: 10:35, 8:10, etc., but Polish newspapers mostly use godz. 21.10 with a full stop. So it appears there is no one binding norm at present. And our one point four is rendered as 1,4 (jeden komma cztery).

alexw68	Feb 12, 11, 23:20 #15
Polonius3: At Warsaw's Chopin Airport departures and arrivals are listed with a colon: 10:35, 8:10 Probably only one company in the world makes these information boards - and it ain't European :)

♂

Edited by: AdamKadmon Feb 12, 11, 23:36 #16

Polonius3:

In blue - countries using the dot separator,
in green - countries using the comma separator,
in red - momayyez (don't know what it is).

Werstern norms are then mostly American, British, Australian, Chinese and Indian norms. Is that all the West that is?

alexw68:

At Warsaw's Chopin Airport departures and arrivals are listed with a colon: 10:35, 8:10

To display time in the 24-hour international format.

chazaThreads: 49 Posts: 266 Joined: Dec 21, 09 ♂	Feb 13, 11, 11:06 #17
sorry skysoulmate a billion is equal to 1000 million not a million million. trylion is 1000 billion. chaza

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Edited by: convex Feb 13, 11, 11:09 #18
Polonius3: However, ever more frequently the full stop or point (.) is being used for this purpsoe according to Western norms. What Western norms? The rest of Europe uses commas... edit:Just noticed Adams post.

♂

Edited by: AdamKadmon Feb 13, 11, 11:19 #19

chaza:

a billion is equal to 1000 million not a million million. trylion is 1000 billion.

.........(U.S. and modern British)......(continental Europe, archaic British, and India)

Million...............1000,000....................................1000 ,000
Billion..........1000,000,000.........................1000,000,000,000
Trillion...1000,000,000,000..............1000,000,000,000,000,000

For more detail, read the Wikipedia article: Long and short scales

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,834 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	Feb 13, 11, 12:47 #20
Indeed, equating things Western with America (re decimal pts, etc.) was too hasty a judgement on my part, as my interlocutors have plainly shown. Mea culpa! A manifestation of latent/subconscious American imperialism? But I repeat my question: does that mean that in Poland now anything goes?

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Edited by: AdamKadmon Feb 14, 11, 14:46 #21
Polonius3: Does that mean that in Poland now anything goes? It's a free-for-all, no holds barred. Just joking.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: jonni Feb 14, 11, 14:57 #22
AdamKadmon: momayyez (don't know what it is). A forward slash. They have to do that because the Arabic zero looks like a decimal point. Varsovian: The British billion was the same as the Polish billion when I was young ... The milliard too.

♂

Edited by: skysoulmate Feb 14, 11, 15:55 #23

chaza:

sorry skysoulmate
a billion is equal to 1000 million not a million million. trylion is 1000 billion.

chaza

I copy & pasted my reply from Oxford Dictionaries and the highlighted portion is still correct. Which is exactly what you're saying. The later sentence contradicts their own statement so I'll leave it out this time.

"...British English has now adopted the American figure, though, so that a billion equals a thousand million in both varieties of English..."

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/page/114

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