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The Dative Case


posts: 36
osiolThreads: 71
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 7, 08, 15:48   #1
Is the dative case this one?

Idę do sklepu.

Is that sentence even correct? I walk (in)to a/the shop.
If so, sklep being masculine (and inanimate), would -ego be the right ending for an accompanying adjective?
How would a neuter or feminine noun work in this context? Ciężarówka, for example.

But then I've just thought, don't funny things happen after the letter k in word endings?
Any examples would be greatly appreciated.
wildroverThreads: 99
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 7, 08, 15:55   #2
now you have confused me......i always say .................. jestem sklepping....
osiolThreads: 71
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 7, 08, 15:59   #3
wildrover:
jestem sklepping

The next step would be "Ja sklepem" I suppose.

Anyway, so is the dative all about moving onto, into or at something, whereas one of the other cases deals with being on, in or at something?
dtaylorThreads: 15
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 7, 08, 16:05   #4
Idę as far as i know does mean moving onto, into, going to ect
Jadę meaning the same but by transport.

God i hope im right, or my polish lessons are a waste of money.

But for me its hard to know when to use do or na??
wildroverThreads: 99
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 7, 08, 16:07   #5
or.... ja sklepped if no banana,s are involved......i think..?????
CatzThreads: -
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 7, 08, 16:07   #6
Idę do nowego sklepu. (I walk to a/the new shop.)
F. Idę do nowej ciężarówki.
N. Idę do nowego kina. Idę do nowego miejsca.

"I walk into a/the shop" (I enter the shop) should be translated as "Wchodzę do sklepu".

And yes, the "do" preposition makes it the Dative case.
osiolThreads: 71
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Gender: Male 		Edited by: osiol   Jun 7, 08, 16:08   #7
Catz:
And yes, the "do" preposition makes it the Dative case.

Can do not be used with some other case, the locative, for example?

dtaylor:
But for me its hard to know when to use do or na??

It was the noun I was thinking more about.

dtaylor:
But for me its hard to know when to use do or na??

A constant difficulty, highlighted by how many mistakes I hear Poles make when talking in English about going onto something that we'd go into, or to something that we'd go at, and so on.
KrzysztofThreads: 3
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Gender: Male 		Edited by: Krzysztof   Jun 7, 08, 16:42   #8
First of all, you guys are discuting Genitive case here (Dopełniacz), not Dative (Celownik), but the sentences were correct, most of them of course, not the wildrover's sklepping :).

Prepositions are a bit*ch, you can't translate them directly at 100%, you can't use logic. And it applies to all the European languages that use prepositions, you just have to rely on your 1/ knowledge, 2/ linguistic intuition or 3/ luck.

"do" + other cases? Let me think :)
I guess not.
osiolThreads: 71
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 7, 08, 16:43   #9
What's the dative then?
KrzysztofThreads: 3
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 7, 08, 16:51   #10
osiol:
What's the dative then?

Dative:
(masc.) nowemu sklepowi / psu / koledze / mężowi / szefowi /sędziemu / uczonemu
(fem.) nowej szkole / suce / koleżance / żonie / kierowniczce / lekarce / uczonej / nocy / radości
(neut.) nowemu oknu / szczenięciu / dziecku / świadectwu / kierownictwu / weselu / uczuciu
osiolThreads: 71
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Gender: Male 		Edited by: osiol   Jun 7, 08, 16:55   #11
Krzysztof:
nowemu sklepowi

Great! What do you do with it? (Other than sklepping, of course.)
KrzysztofThreads: 3
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Gender: Male 		Edited by: Krzysztof   Jun 7, 08, 17:55   #12
someday you'll find out :)
there are simply verbs that require dative case.
for example:
"to give something to somebody" - dawać/dać coś (Acc.) komuś (Dat.), other verbs: podać/podawać (again usually with two objects, direct in Acc. (something) + indirect in Dat. (to somebody), przyglądać się (look carefully at, stare at) etc.
Z wdzięczności dałem buziaka lekarce
Przyglądam się temu sklepowi.
benszymanskiThreads: 9
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 8, 08, 01:53   #13
The dative is generally used to show the receiver of something or indirect objects, hence it is used with the verb to give amongst others.

For example "Ben gives the book to the donkey" - Ben is nominative, the book is the object being given (hence accusative) and the donkey is the receiver so will be dative.

Also some verbs where you might not expect it use the dative such as "to help", so literally you are saying "I help to you" rather than "I help you", but I guess that is logical because you give help to someone (and it's the same in German too).
osiolThreads: 71
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 8, 08, 02:17   #14
benszymanski:
Ben gives the book to the donkey

Ben daje (?ending) książką za/na/dla/qa/xa(you get the idea) osłowi.

How good was that? Should I ask how bad was that?

I got osłowi from a post (dzięki Krzysztof<dative>) that was deleted long ago, but that I saved the information from. I also have osłu. I think I opted for the retard term rather than the animal version.

So it's different if it's human, animate or blah blah blah in the masculine?
That's the kind of thing that makes Polish not only difficult, but nonsensically difficult.
benszymanskiThreads: 9
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 8, 08, 02:31   #15
In English we rely on prepositions to tell us who does what to whom, in Polish you don't always need a preposition:

Ben daje książkę Osłowi

Remember (-ę for fem. acc. singular). To be honest I don't know what the rule is for the masculine singular dative ending (-u or -owi). Certainly names of people seem to be -owi. It might be you need to learn the ending with the word. Most other things seem to be -u. Most monosyllabic words tend to take -u (e.g. brat -> bratu)

I am going to guess (but I don't know off hand) that usually osioł takes -u, but when treating Osioł as your name -owi is used.

Maybe a native here can help...
KrzysztofThreads: 3
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Gender: Male 		Edited by: Krzysztof   Jun 8, 08, 09:23   #16
benszymanski:
I am going to guess (but I don't know off hand) that usually osioł takes -u, but when treating Osioł as your name -owi is used.

yes, and osiol took notes of the other thread, as he mentions in his previous post.
benszymanski:
Most monosyllabic words tend to take -u (e.g. brat -> bratu)

I wouldn't hurry with such conclusions, have you analized more nouns? I never thought that the length of a word would influence its grammatical behaviour (in Polish).

benszymanski:
In English we rely on prepositions to tell us who does what to whom, in Polish you don't always need a preposition:

This applies especially to Dative and Instrumental cases, when Dative is used for a recipient of an action and Instrumental for an means (a tool/intrument/vehicle) of an action.

Examples
Przyjechał/Przyszedł z osłem = He came with a donkey (so the animal was accompanying him, not used to transport him)
Przyjechał osłem (although it's better to say "na ośle")= He came/rode on a donkey.
Przyjechał do mnie nowym samochodem (He came to me in his new car).
Przyjechał do mnie z nowym samochodem, który się już popsuł. (He came to me with his new car that was already broken.) - Here we don't know how he arrived, if he used his new car that was broken partially, but still functionnal or if he arrived in another car/truck towing his new broken car. if you add the preposition "z" to the noun in Instrumental it changes the sentence meaning (the stress is on the fact that he brought the car for a repair, not how he arrived).
benszymanskiThreads: 9
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 8, 08, 11:57   #17
Krzysztof:
I wouldn't hurry with such conclusions, have you analized more nouns? I never thought that the length of a word would influence its grammatical behaviour (in Polish).


Actually I was quoting that from a book, but now I can't lay my hands on which one it was (I took it from my notes from when I was learning about it)
MichalThreads: -
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 10, 08, 09:15   #18
osiol:
dę do sklepu.

Ja idę do sklepu is dative in the sense that it refers to direction but in fact this is the genitive singular case. To use the dative grammatical case then you would have to say 'ja idę ku sklepowi'.
osiolThreads: 71
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 10, 08, 11:03   #19
Michal:
idę ku sklepowi'

So that means I might not actually go to the shop, but just towards it?
benszymanskiThreads: 9
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 10, 08, 12:54   #20
Michal:
dative in the sense that it refers to direction


I see what you are saying but think you are just confusing the issue.
Towards doesn't always imply dative anyway, sometimes it is accusative depending on whether there is motion towards or not (e.g. in German)
osiolThreads: 71
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 10, 08, 13:17   #21
So would I be looking ku sklepowi as that doesn't involve motion, as opposed to going ku sklepu?
MichalThreads: -
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 10, 08, 13:41   #22
benszymanski:
see what you are saying but think you are just confusing the issue.

Yes it does. In true slovonic linguistic meaning the Russian k means towards something and it always takes the dative case. It is the lazy Poles who can only use the word 'do' for everything who are complicating the issue.
osiolThreads: 71
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 10, 08, 14:30   #23
Michal:
It is the lazy Poles who can only use the word 'do' for everything who are complicating the issue.

Perhaps I'm learning lazy Polish. When I start learning Old Slavonic, I'll let you know.
KrzysztofThreads: 3
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Gender: Male 		Edited by: Krzysztof   Jun 10, 08, 19:49   #24
LOL, Michal get over it. You ashamed yourself once by claiming "jadę ku Warszawie", so now you present some hilarious thoeries about "true slavonic linguistics".
Osiol is too long on those boards to trust your linguistic "knowledge" (especially of the Polish), try to fool some newbies.


osiol:
So would I be looking ku sklepowi as that doesn't involve motion, as opposed to going ku sklepu?


normally you'd say patrzę na sklep (Acc. case)
as opposed to going do sklepu?
ku sklepowi would be correct, but only insome weird context, not in "normal" circumstances.
MichalThreads: -
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 11, 08, 08:58   #25
Krzysztof:
try to fool some newbie

I am not trying to fool anybody and the Polish word ku plus the dative is a correct form. If this person is so long on this board that he can not be fooled then why is he asking such simple questions that are common sense in the Polish Language then?
wildroverThreads: 99
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 11, 08, 11:54   #26
[quote=Michal]If this person is so long on this board that he can not be fooled then why is he asking such simple questions that are common sense in the Polish Language then?


Perhaps to wind you up........?????
osiolThreads: 71
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 11, 08, 12:16   #27
Michal:
why is he asking such simple questions that are common sense in the Polish Language then?

What is common sense supposed to be? How is knowing exactly what grammatical case any particular verbal construct is supposed to use, common sense?

I suggest to you that you start learning a new language. Let's say Urdu as a good example. You can try picking it up from the bloke at your local corner shop or pizza takeaway. Give it about a year or so, and then we'll have a little chat about common sense.

wildrover:
Perhaps to wind you up.

Me? Wind up our old pal Micky Moscow?
z_dariusThreads: 17
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 14, 08, 22:20   #28
Michal:
It is the lazy Poles who can only use the word 'do' for everything who are complicating the issue.

I'm sure this complicates the issue for russophile. Still, this is Polish, not russian, and if there is any laziness in a language it is in your court, you linguistic fraud.
EurolaThreads: 5
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Gender: Female 		   Jun 15, 08, 00:13   #29
Who on earth uses the ancient word "Ku" in Poland? Maybe some old people in a village and that's... maybe. Apparently it was very much used in Michal's household when he was growing up. Lil.
cinekThreads: 1
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Gender: Male 		Edited by: cinek   Jun 20, 08, 08:59   #30
Eurola:
Who on earth uses the ancient word "Ku" in Poland? Maybe some old people in a village and that's... maybe


Yes. Today, you can find "ku" only in old literature (XIX century or older) and e.g. in Bible. Nobody would ever say it when talking to you today.
But Michal's right that it has the same roots as Russian 'k'.
billpawlThreads: -
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Gender: Male 		   Jun 20, 08, 11:27   #31
Michal:
In true slovonic linguistic meaning the Russian k means towards something and it always takes the dative case. It is the lazy Poles who can only use the word 'do' for everything who are complicating the issue.



Just out of curiosity, does Michal exhibit the same lack of "laziness" in English and make sure to use "thee" and "thou"?
osiolThreads: 71
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Gender: Male 		Edited by: osiol   Jun 20, 08, 11:46   #32
Billpawl, thou hast raised a very worthwhile point. But to whom? Michal himself?

Eurola:
Who on earth uses the ancient word "Ku" in Poland?

I don't know, but I hear a Slovakian ku quite a lot. But I am learning neither Russian nor Slovakian.
osiolThreads: 71
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Gender: Male 		   Feb 6, 09, 11:40   #33
-u
-owi

When it is applied to a man's name, which is used? I have a book that states that the dative is more often used with people's names than with other nouns, but then it doesn't actually give any examples of how to use the dative with names.
osiolThreads: 71
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Gender: Male 		   Feb 6, 09, 13:27   #34
Crude tool that is google, I tried it anyway.

Jurku - a small number of random results
Jurkowi - a much larger number of results, some of which looked like they were definitely in a dative context.

-owi it is then, unless anyone can give me any exceptions or corrections.
gumishu    Mar 3, 09, 14:49   #35
Eurola - mam ku temu powody (and such);
ku zdumieniu, ku zaskoczeniu, ku przerażeniu, ku rozpaczy, ku przestrodze
mają się ku sobie


g woli scislości - szczerze mówiąc nie jestem pewien pisowni tego zwrotu - jednakże genetycznie to jest k(u) woli

these are examples of ku usage in rathern modern Polish - yes they are quite literary, or newspaperish but have hardly fallen from use
gumishu    Mar 3, 09, 15:03   #36
ku always implies dative in Polish (irrelevant if there is motion involved or not)

do always implies genetive, the same case with od
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