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Declension of town names in prepositional phrases

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Declension of town names in prepositional phrases

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Jan 18, 10, 20:22 #1

I have difficulty learning the system for modifying names of Polish towns that refer to a thing in the town. i.e.

A church in Nieborów (kosciół w Nieborowie)
A shop in Lewiczyn (sklep w Lewiczinie)
A palace in Warszawa (pałac w Warszawie)
A street in Siedlce (ulica w Siedlcach)
A house in Paprotnia (dom w Paprotni) Paprotnie?
A school in Nowy Ręczaje (szkoła w Ręczajach Nowych)

Proszę pomóc

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Jan 18, 10, 20:44 #2

It's the locative case (miejscownik) of the place name.

A church in Nieborów (kosciół w Nieborowie)
A shop in Lewiczyn (sklep w Lewiczinie) w Lewiczynie
A palace in Warszawa (pałac w Warszawie)
A street in Siedlce (ulica w Siedlcach)
A house in Paprotnia (dom w Paprotni) Paprotnie? w Paprotni; "w Paprotnie" would be correct if the name were Paprotno
A school in Nowy Ręczaje (szkoła w Ręczajach Nowych) w Nowych Ręczajach - why change the order?
also, I think that should be Nowe Ręczaje

Some place names are tricky and problematic even for the natives.

musicwriterThreads: 5 Posts: 95 Joined: Jan 7, 10 ♂	Edited by: musicwriter Jan 18, 10, 20:53 #3
As for Nowy Ręczaje, that's the way it was spelled in a photo caption that appears on www.panoramio.com. I like to browse images of Poland on this site, some of the photos were taken early in the morning before the mist has evaporated, which gives a rather ethereal effect.

strzygaThreads: 4 Posts: 888 Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀	Jan 18, 10, 21:11 #4
this one? http://www.panoramio.com/photo/18891399 yes, it's a nice picture. Unfortunately, the commentary under says that the shrine doesn't exist anymore; it has been taken down. Shame. The map says Nowe Ręczaje. Looks like the author of the picture unwittingly changed the order of the words.

musicwriterThreads: 5 Posts: 95 Joined: Jan 7, 10 ♂	Jan 19, 10, 07:06 #5
Hooray! I just found a webpage that lists many town names and in the text, they are printed in the locative case. The URL is: www.ziemialodzka.pl/index.php Now, maybe I can figure out the mechanics of Polish locative nouns. Dzięki za wasz pomoc dobrolitwy. DFD

♂

Edited by: Derevon Jan 19, 10, 11:01 #6

As a rule, nouns with stems ending in any of the following letters have "-ie" endings with no modifications:

B, F, M, N, P, S, W, Z:

Łaba -> Łabie (Elbe)
Strefa -> Strefie (Zone)
Prom -> Promie (ferry)
Zmiana -> Zmianie (change)
Mapa -> Mapie (map)
Los -> Losie (fate, destiny, outcome, chance)
Warszawa -> Warszawie (Warsaw)
Waza -> Wazie (tureen)

Nouns ending in any of the letters below, also have -ie-ending, but with some modifications:

D, T:

Wada -> Wadzie (flaw, fault)
Blata -> Blacie (tabletop, counter)

The following have endings in "-e" with various modifications. These are:

CHA, GA, KA, Ł, R:

Blacha -> Blasze (metal plate)
Ulga -> Uldze (relief)
Ameryka -> Ameryce (America)
Upał -> Upale (heat, hot weather)
Lustro -> Lustrze (mirror)

Words with stems ending in the following have locative endings in -u without modifications (with the exception of feminine nouns ending in -cha, -ga and -ka):

C, G, CH, J, K, L, Ż, CZ, RZ, SZ:

Koc -> Kocu (blanket)
Waga -> Wagu (scales)
Dach -> Dachu (roof)
Kraj -> Kraju (country)
Szok -> Szoku (shock)
Stal -> Stalu (steel)
Wąż -> Wężu (snake) (notice also how ą turns into ę)
Mecz -> Meczu (match)
Powietrze -> Powietrzu (air)
Kosz -> Koszu (basket)

Nouns with stems ending in either of the following have modified -u-endings:

Ć, Ń, Ś, Ź, ŚĆ:

Łokieć -> Łokciu (elbow) (note that the e disappears)
Cień -> Cieniu (shadow, shade)
Struś -> Strusiu (ostrich)
Niedźwiedź -> Niedźwiedziu (bear)

There are several other types of declensions too, but I ran out of time. I guess I should have separated them by gender too, since some of the stem endings differ with gender.

musicwriterThreads: 5 Posts: 95 Joined: Jan 7, 10 ♂	Jan 20, 10, 02:24 #7
Thanks Derevon!

♂

Edited by: Ziemowit Jan 21, 10, 10:19 #8

Here are some tricky town names for Muciswriter to decline in the locative case:

A street in Limanowa (ulica w ....................).
A house in Włoszczowa (dom we ....................).
A church in Ostrów Wielkopolski (kościół w .......................).
A church in Ostrów Mazowiecka (kościół w .......................).
A palace in Wrocław (pałac we .........................).

For checking and comment by Derevon (who in my opinion is really good at the declension of name endings).

DerevonThreads: 12 Posts: 186 Joined: Oct 11, 09 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 11:48 #9
Thanks. ;) I live in Wrocław, so the last one is easy for me, and I would guess the first and/or the second might be declined as an adjective. As for "Ostrów Mazowiecka", I'm quite confused. What does Mazowiecka agree with?

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Jan 21, 10, 13:33 #10

Derevon:

As a rule, nouns with stems ending in any of the following letters have "-ie" endings with no modifications:
B, F, M, N, P, S, W, Z:

Derevon:

I live in Wrocław, so the last one is easy for me

Though it is easy, you may have noticed that Wrocław does not fit the rule you indicate; the name of the city ends in -w, so it should decline: we Wrocławie, but it doesn't. Any thoughts on that?

[Very few of the native speakers of Polish will tell you the explanation for it, but they are, of course, welcome to do it.]

DerevonThreads: 12 Posts: 186 Joined: Oct 11, 09 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 14:54 #11
For some reason the stem ending of "Wrocław" is soft, even though it's not visible from the nominative form. Therefore it's conjugated as a noun with soft ending (-iu). It's the same things as with żółw. As to why these words have soft endings, I have absolutely no idea though.

ZiemowitThreads: 10 Posts: 1,056 Joined: May 8, 09 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 16:13 #12
I am truly amazed at your ability to conceive the right answer without having prior knowledge of the history of the language. Indeed, the final -w in Wrocław was pronounced as a soft w until the end of the 18-th century (the soft w, for example, still exists in Russian to this day). Hence, the ending in "Wrocław' / we Wrocławiu", just the same as in "Toruń / w Toruniu".

gumishuThreads: 13 Posts: 3,596 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	Edited by: gumishu Jan 21, 10, 17:24 #13
Derevon: Waga -> Wagu (scales) it's Waga -> Wadze waga is feminine (note a in the end) Wag - Wagu - Wag is a river in Slovakia and the name is masculine (same in Polish and in Slovak) - they call it Wah we call it Wag so you get tama na Wagu - a dam on Wah (looks interesting in English, ain't it ;)

DerevonThreads: 12 Posts: 186 Joined: Oct 11, 09 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 21:56 #14
Gumishu: Oops. That's right. Ziemowit: That makes sense. Wrocław had a lot of different names over the years I've heard.

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 12 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Jan 21, 10, 22:40 #15
The locative is in my opinion (by far) the most difficult case. Probably because we often also have a change in the end of the stem.

musicwriterThreads: 5 Posts: 95 Joined: Jan 7, 10 ♂	Jan 22, 10, 05:32 #16
Ulica w Limonowej Dom we Włoszczowej Kościoł w Ostrowej Wielkopolskach Kościoł w Ostrowej Mazowiecach Pałac we Wrocławiu

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Edited by: Bzibzioh Jan 22, 10, 05:50 #17

Ziemowit:

A street in Limanowa (ulica w ....................).
A house in Włoszczowa (dom we ....................).
A church in Ostrów Wielkopolski (kościół w .......................).
A church in Ostrów Mazowiecka MAZOWIECKI more like it (kościół w ............).
A palace in Wrocław (pałac we .........................).

musicwriter:

Ulica w Limonowej LIMANOWEJ
Dom we Włoszczowej GOOD
Kościoł w Ostrowej Wielkopolskach OSTROWIE WIELKOPOLSKIEJ
Kościoł w Ostrowej Mazowiecach OSTROWIE MAZOWIECKIEJ
Pałac we Wrocławiu GOOD JOB!

♀

Edited by: strzyga Jan 22, 10, 09:39 #18

Bzibzioh:

Kościoł w Ostrowej Wielkopolskach OSTROWIE WIELKOPOLSKIEJ

kościół w Ostrowie Wielkopolskim
Ostrów Wielkopolski is masculine

Bzibzioh:

Kościoł w Ostrowej Mazowiecach OSTROWIE MAZOWIECKIEJ

kościół w Ostrowi Mazowieckiej
Ostrów Mazowiecka is feminine.

Bzibzioh:

Dom we Włoszczowej GOOD

we Włoszczowie

I can't post direct links but you may check official sites at triple w powiatostrowmaz . pl ; triple w ostrow-wielkopolski . um . gov . pl and triple w gmina-wloszczowa . pl

♂

Edited by: Ziemowit Jan 22, 10, 11:04 #19

Derevon:

That makes sense. Wrocław had a lot of different names over the years I've heard.

It did. But what I am trying to tell there is that the Polish name of the city in the 18th century was the same as today, only the final w in it was pronounced softly of which the traces remain in the declension of the name.

musicwriter:

Dom we Włoszczowej

The PWN Dictionary of Polish (Słownik poprawnej polszczyzny PWN) of 1973 and 1981 by Witold Doroszewski as well as "Poradnik językowy. Podręcznik dla pracowników prasy, radia i telewizji" of 1969 recommended the forms: do Włoszczowej, we Włoszczowej (adjectival type, like in: w Istebnej, w Limanowej, w Kolbuszowej). It was later decided in the official "Wykaz urzędowych nazw miejscowości w Polsce (vol. 1-3)" of 1982 that the name should be declined according to the noun type of declention (like in: w Kudowie, w Jabłonnie, we Wschowie). The latter is in agreement with the pattern of declention being used locally, so it should indeed be:

do Włoszczowy, we Włoszczowie;

though quite a number of people in Poland (me included) are still used to the former, adjectival pattern of its declension.

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