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Dzwoniono / Czytano


posts: 23

szveronikaThreads: 3
Posts: 9
Joined: Apr 25, 11 ♀ 		 May 26, 11, 12:24    #1
Could you please give me some grammatical help what is Dzwoniono Czytano..etc? Dzwonili, czytali is not exactly the same right?
Thanks! Veronika
gumishuThreads: 17
Posts: 3,943
Joined: Apr 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		Edited by: gumishu  May 26, 11, 12:39    #2
dzwoniono, czytano - are impersonal constructions reffering to the past (it says nothing about who was the doer - sometimes (but not always) it suggests that many people were doing that perhaps habitually) - historically it is a neuter (neuter gender) form of a passive adjectival participle (now the actual neuter form of a passive adjectival participle has a different ending (-e not -o)
szveronikaThreads: 3
Posts: 9
Joined: Apr 25, 11 ♀ 		 May 26, 11, 13:16    #3
Thank you for the detailed answer!

historically it is a neuter (neuter gender) form of a passive adjectival participle (now the actual neuter form of a passive adjectival participle has a different ending (-e not -o)

We don't understand this part. I have asked my Polish colleauge, she also doesn't understand what you mean by this. Dzwoniono is existing today, not Dzwonione.

Thanks!
gumishuThreads: 17
Posts: 3,943
Joined: Apr 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 May 26, 11, 13:22    #4
yes dzwonione does not exist as a word in Polish but you add a prefix wy- and you get wydzwonione which your Polish friend should understand perfectly - wydzwoniono is also a word in Polish

the better pair to exemplify my point could perhaps be 'znano' and 'znane'
cinekThreads: 1
Posts: 264
Joined: Nov 16, 07 ♂ 		 May 26, 11, 14:30    #5
szveronika:
Dzwoniono is existing today, not Dzwonione.


This is because passive adjectival participle requires a transitive verb. Dzwonić is not.

Cinek
szveronikaThreads: 3
Posts: 9
Joined: Apr 25, 11 ♀ 		 May 28, 11, 21:34    #6
Thanks! I don't understand yet, but try :)
mafketisThreads: 17
Posts: 1,880
Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂ 		 May 28, 11, 22:13    #7
Forms like czytano etc are impersonal forms with no real equivalent in any non-Slavic language that I know of. If you know some Finnish then the forms ending in -taan like puhutaan (was spoken, someone spoke) are semantically pretty similar. Nothing very close in Hungarian though.

Sometimes they are functionally like agentless passives in English: znaleziono ciało w parku = a body was found in the park

Grammatically they're not really passives the object remains in the object case (it doesn't become the subject of the sentence - the sentence can have no subject)

They're formed from the pasive participle with the ending -o which is adverbial. There used to be an distinction in some Slavic languages (and maybe modern Czech?) between adverbs that modified a verb or adjective ending in -(i)e like dobrze and ładnie and those that could be predicates which ended in -o like zimno, smutno. The distinction is lost in modern Polish but may have been in effect when these forms first arose.

You can also translate them mentally with 'someone X' though stylistically this will be odd for many examples....
szveronikaThreads: 3
Posts: 9
Joined: Apr 25, 11 ♀ 		 May 29, 11, 09:59    #8
Thank you!! It is clearer for me now.
gumishuThreads: 17
Posts: 3,943
Joined: Apr 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 May 30, 11, 17:34    #9
cinek:
This is because passive adjectival participle requires a transitive verb. Dzwonić is not.


transitive verb is one that can have a 'direct object' ;) dzwonić can't have one ;)

'direct object' in English is the object that binds with a verb without a preposition ;)

i'm pretty sure it is much different in Hungarian ;)
KoalaThreads: 1
Posts: 433
Joined: May 4, 11 ♂ 		 May 30, 11, 17:42    #10
gumishu:

transitive verb is one that can have a 'direct object' ;) dzwonić can't have one ;)

What about the sentence "Dzwonił palcami o szkło"? Wouldn't "palcami" be a direct object?
gumishuThreads: 17
Posts: 3,943
Joined: Apr 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		Edited by: gumishu  May 30, 11, 17:45    #11
Koala:
What about the sentence "Dzwonił palcami o szkło"? Wouldn't "palcami" be a direct object?


I don't think so - write the sentence in English and you will need a preposition (with his fingers) - I guess the 'direct object' in terms of Polish language needs to be in accusative (palcami is instrumental) or genetive (szukać, słuchać)
gumishuThreads: 17
Posts: 3,943
Joined: Apr 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		Edited by: gumishu  May 30, 11, 17:55    #12
Polish wikipedia on 'dopełnienie bliższe' (more or less direct object) http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dope%C5%82nienie_bli%C5%BCsze
KoalaThreads: 1
Posts: 433
Joined: May 4, 11 ♂ 		 May 30, 11, 18:02    #13
"Melodia była dzwoniona palcami o szkło."

To me this sounds a bit weird, but not incorrect. Hard to tell.
mafketisThreads: 17
Posts: 1,880
Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂ 		 May 30, 11, 18:17    #14
Koala:
What about the sentence "Dzwonił palcami o szkło"? Wouldn't "palcami" be a direct object?


It looks to me like an adverbial complement describing an instrument.

But another reason for saying that -no / -to forms aren't true passives is that they can be used with intransitive verbs.

Jak tańczono przed wiekami.....

gumishu:
write the sentence in English and you will need a preposition (with his fingers) - I guess the 'direct object' in terms of Polish language needs to be in accusative (palcami is instrumental) or genetive (szukać, słuchać)


Examples from English are completely irrelevant for defining the internal categories of Polish.

I would provisionally say that direct objects in Polish can appear in up to four different cases.

accusative - mam samochód

genetive - szukam klucza

dative - ufam tobie

instrumental - pogardzę nim
gumishuThreads: 17
Posts: 3,943
Joined: Apr 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 May 30, 11, 18:23    #15
mafketis:
gumishu:
write the sentence in English and you will need a preposition (with his fingers) - I guess the 'direct object' in terms of Polish language needs to be in accusative (palcami is instrumental) or genetive (szukać, słuchać)


Examples from English are completely irrelevant for defining the internal categories of Polish.


I do find English direct object a very good approximant of Polish 'dopełnienie bliższe'

ufam tobie - I trust you

kieruję firm± - I run a firm kieruję wozem - I steer a cart/waggon

no prepositions
FlaglessPoleThreads: 7
Posts: 1,394
Joined: Aug 19, 10 ♂ 		 May 30, 11, 18:38    #16
Koala:
"Melodia była dzwoniona palcami o szkło."

just a question, wouldn't 'na szkle' be correct as well?
mafketisThreads: 17
Posts: 1,880
Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂ 		 May 30, 11, 18:46    #17
gumishu:

I do find English direct object a very good approximant of Polish 'dopełnienie bliższe'

no prepositions


'approximate' is the key word...


zadzwoniłem do ciebe = I called you. / I phoned you.

oops
szveronikaThreads: 3
Posts: 9
Joined: Apr 25, 11 ♀ 		 May 30, 11, 20:12    #18
Yeah this is why I have troubles because in Hungarian a lot of things are different than in Polish. If I would have learned German, it would be easier.

Thanks!
KoalaThreads: 1
Posts: 433
Joined: May 4, 11 ♂ 		 May 30, 11, 21:19    #19
szveronika:
Yeah this is why I have troubles because in Hungarian a lot of things are different than in Polish. If I would have learned German, it would be easier.

Not really. It's a vastly different language at the end of the day.

FlaglessPole:
just a question, wouldn't 'na szkle' be correct as well?

Yes, I think so.
cinekThreads: 1
Posts: 264
Joined: Nov 16, 07 ♂ 		 May 31, 11, 11:58    #20
gumishu:

transitive verb is one that can have a 'direct object' ;) dzwonić can't have one ;)

Koala:
"Melodia była dzwoniona palcami o szkło."


So it turns out that dzwonić can be either transitive or not, depending on the context, and we can have e.g.:

Dwie melodie były dzwonione palcami o szkło.

cinek:
This is because passive adjectival participle requires a transitive verb. Dzwonić is not.


shame on me :-(

Cinek
mafketisThreads: 17
Posts: 1,880
Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂ 		 May 31, 11, 19:14    #21
szveronika:
If I would have learned German, it would be easier.


But not as fun!
BondiThreads: 4
Posts: 148
Joined: Sep 11, 07 ♂ 		 Jun 2, 11, 13:53    #22
szveronika,
As far as I understand, czytano is the same as "széles körben olvasott könyv" (a book read by a wide public), but it sounds too cheesy, so in common speech we just say without referring to a person/persons: "sokan olvassák" (lots of them read it). That's why you might mistake it for "czytali" (they have read it). :)

Being a beginner in Polish, I don't know if these "-no" forms have the same "cheesy" (too sophisticated) taste in Polish or they can be used everyday without sounding like a snob. :)
gumishuThreads: 17
Posts: 3,943
Joined: Apr 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Jun 2, 11, 14:09    #23
Bondi:
Being a beginner in Polish, I don't know if these "-no" forms have the same "cheesy" (too sophisticated) taste in Polish or they can be used everyday without sounding like a snob. :)


yes, they are pretty formal - you don't hear as a part of everyday speech actually


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