English grammar thread: subjunctive mood

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Jun 14, 11, 13:43 #1

English grammar may be confusing and complicated. In reference to my remarks on the subjunctive mood in the "Mixed English Grammar hread", here's an excerpt from the book by Berk LM (1999). "English syntax: from word to discourse" (New York: Oxford University Press). It shows two native speakers [and scholars] of English disagree on the meaning of a simple sentence.
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- We asked [that Marsha tell the truth].
- I insist [that you be quiet].
- I require [that term papers be turned in on time].

In each of these sentences, the main verb makes some sort of demand, from very mild (ask/suggest) to very strong (demand/insist). In each case, the direct object of the main verb is a clause (the structure in brackets). Note that when the subject of the clause is third person, its verb does not take third person {-s} and be is in its infinitive form. These atypical verb forms are the vestiges of the Old English subjunctive system. The same meaning can be communicated by a verb in present tense – We insist that Marsha tells the truth or by a modal auxiliary – We insist that Marsha must tell the truth. Technically, however, these are not subjunctive utterances because they lack subjunctive verb forms. All of these sentences are directives, however. ● ]

The authors of the site: http://www.ceafinney.com/subjunctive/excerpts.html do not agree with the above, however. Here is what they think:

● ] This statement bears clarification, as what Berk says is not wholly correct. Compare two sentences (alternate meanings are in parentheses):

We insist that Marsha tells the truth. (We aver or claim emphatically that Marsha tells or does tell the truth.) [indicative mood]
We insist that Marsha tell the truth. (We demand or require that Marsha must or should tell the truth.) [subjunctive mood]

In this example, there is a very big difference between tell and tells, partly because insist has two different meanings. Berk errs when she says that the first example (insist that Marsha tells) is a directive – if meant as an indicative statement, then tells is correct; if meant as a directive, then tell is correct, and Berk advocates using a poorly formed sentence. The strict mandative subjunctive (insist that Marsha tell) or the modal auxiliary (insist that Marsha must tell) form should be used (also note that with the verb insist, a gerundial form may be employed: We insist on Marsha telling the truth.).

VarsovianThreads: 91 Posts: 568 Joined: Nov 23, 06 ♂	Jun 14, 11, 13:50 #2
The problem is that when one Pole writes correctly using the subjunctive to an audience including another Pole, the second Pole will "correct" him.

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Edited by: Ziemowit Jun 14, 11, 14:53 #3

In reality, not many Poles learning English would ever go into deliberations as to what the 'subjunctive' is. They would simply struggle with whether to use the article or not, and if so which one to choose. But I was trying to point your attention to the fact that even native and highly educated British or American scholars may have problems with the subjuntive versus the indicative mood and their respective use and meaning.

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Jun 14, 11, 18:08 #4

This really presents a rather archaic argument, rather like the proverbial how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I am an assistant professor of developmental skills and my concnetration is English. Thus I work with English learners from all over the world. Subjunctive vs indicative is rarely if ever presented as these forms are indeed Old English. What we encourage in our students is precise, clear, crisp communication with varied word choice and excellent command. The above example is hair-splitting to a dramatic and unnecessary degree. We all understand that Martha must tell the truth and that it is insisted upon. Enough said.

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Jun 14, 11, 20:10 #5

I'm sorry to say it, but such a comment is simply beyond my imagination.

We insist that Marsha tells the truth [indicative mood]
means that she has already already started to tell the truth and does tell the truth, while
We insist that Marsha tell the truth [subjunctive mood]
means that we only demand her to tell the truth [which she may eventually not do].

How can an assistant professor with concentration on English, one who encourages precise, clear and crisp communication in her students, may ever call this rather important difference in meaning insignificant by refering to the above example as "hair-splitting to a dramatic and unnecessary degree"?

♂ [Moderator]

Jun 14, 11, 22:51 #6

Ziemowit:

How can an assistant professor with concentration on English, one who encourages precise, clear and crisp communication in her students, may ever call this rather important difference in meaning insignificant by refering to the above example as "hair-splitting to a dramatic and unnecessary degree"?

when we have people coming on the forum asking how to answer simple questions for celta it follows that they have no clue about subjunctive etc.

it's the dumbing down of teachers and avoiding difficult questions from students that gives you your answer, Ziemowit.

however, that may be in the uk or elsewhere. as we all know subjunctive appears in the Matura and has to be taught.

Lyzko	Jun 18, 11, 14:38 #7
As education was essentially cancelled in the US during Reagan, small wonder most Americans are so painfully ignorant about EVERYTHING, from subjunctive to basic math and science to current events, i.e. who their current VP is etc....!!! A recent pole of American college students has made this all woefully apparent. The pole was named appropriately "Non-campus mentis"

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