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Grammar help; Dokąd? and Gdzie?


posts: 19

kazalinaThreads: 17
Posts: 15
Joined: Dec 28, 09 ♀ 		Edited by: Moderator  Jan 10, 11, 17:20    #1
Can any one explain the different uses of

Dokąd? and Gdzie?

Many Thanks
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,441
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Jan 10, 11, 17:20    #2
Dokąd- where to
Gdzie-where
kazalinaThreads: 17
Posts: 15
Joined: Dec 28, 09 ♀ 		 Jan 10, 11, 17:27    #3
Looking for something more indeepth;

For example

Dokąd should be used with motion verbs; jechać, iść, pójść ?????

and

Gdzie should be used with static verbs like mieszkać, być ????

Is this correct????

Could anyone give some simple examples?

Thanks
jablkoThreads: -
Posts: 156
Joined: Jul 13, 10 ♂ 		 Jan 10, 11, 17:41    #4
I think that Gdzie can be used both with static and motion verbs, where Dokąd can be used only with motion verbs.
MrEpThreads: -
Posts: 29
Joined: Nov 29, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: MrEp  Jan 10, 11, 18:51    #5
PennBoy

true
kazalina

true
jablko

true

This thread is successful :)

kazalina:
Could anyone give some simple examples?

Gdzie idziemy? - Where are we going?
Dokąd idziemy? - Where are we going?

Gdzie on poszedł? - Where did he go?
Dokąd on poszedł? - Where did he go?

Gdzie mieszkasz? - Where do you live?
but:
Dokąd mieszkasz? - WRONG
skysoulmateThreads: 41
Posts: 3,039
Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: Moderator  Jan 11, 11, 00:57    #6
kazalina:
...Grammer help;"


kazalina:
Looking for something more indeepth;



Examples:

Dokąd idziesz z tym tematem?

Gdzie się uczyłaś angielskiego?


Sorry, couldn't resist. I feel extra mean today... ;)
strzygaThreads: 4
Posts: 986
Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀ 		 Jan 11, 11, 03:47    #7
MrEp:
Dokąd mieszkasz? - WRONG


Dokąd mnie nie wyrzucą ;)

this thread made me remember an old joke:

- Gdzie pędzisz?
- W piwnicy.
- Ale dokąd?
- Dokąd mnie nie złapią...

To the OP: "dokąd" in spoken everyday Polish is sometimes used as "until", although the usage is incorrect and rather uneducated.
MrEpThreads: -
Posts: 29
Joined: Nov 29, 10 ♂ 		 Jan 11, 11, 08:08    #8
strzyga:
To the OP: "dokąd" in spoken everyday Polish is sometimes used as "until", although the usage is incorrect and rather uneducated.

Acz słyszeć to będziem, dokąd naroda nie wykształcim i do mowy starannej nie przyuczym ;)
ZiemowitThreads: 10
Posts: 1,063
Joined: May 8, 09 ♂ 		 Jan 11, 11, 11:36    #9
strzyga:
this thread made me remember an old joke:

And it made me remember another old joke:
- Panie, na ile ta kiełbasa?
- Na miesiąc.
- Ja się nie pytam 'na ile', tylko 'po ile'?
- Po plasterku.
strzygaThreads: 4
Posts: 986
Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀ 		Edited by: strzyga  Jan 11, 11, 11:46    #10
MrEp:
Acz słyszeć to będziem, dopokąd naroda nie wykształcim i do mowy starannej nie przyuczym ;)

;)

Ziemowit:
And it made me remember another old joke:

and one more, reportedly from Białystok:

- Jest mięso mielone?
- Mielim.
- To poproszę pół kilo.
- Wczoraj mielim...

although this one should probably go into a verbs thread :)
cinekThreads: 1
Posts: 264
Joined: Nov 16, 07 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 11, 10:33    #11
jablko:
I think that Gdzie can be used both with static and motion verbs


I think not. In proper Polish only 'dokąd' is used for motion. It indicates the target, while 'gdzie' indicates the place of the action. Eg.:

Dokąd idziesz? Do domu. Where are you going to? I'm going home.
Gdzie idziesz? Na ulicy. Where are you going (walking)? In a street.

Unfortunately, most Poles would understand 'gdzie idziesz' as 'where are you going to'

strzyga:
although the usage is incorrect and rather uneducated


Cinek
alexw68  Jan 12, 11, 10:39    #12
cinek:
Unfortunately, most Poles (...)

Vox populi, vox Dei. Most is an understatement - in casual conversation I don't think I've ever heard 'dokąd idziesz' - disclaimer: I'm a non-native who may be hanging out with the wrong crowd :)
ZiemowitThreads: 10
Posts: 1,063
Joined: May 8, 09 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 11, 12:27    #13
alexw68:
... in casual conversation I don't think I've ever heard 'dokąd idziesz'

I think you are right. People just don't speak in the way they are told they should. Even the educated ones would say "gdzie idziesz?" rather than "dokąd idziesz?". Nevertheless, most people would never use that form in writing. When uttering phrases like "gdzie idziesz, ty głupi baranie!?", replacing 'gdzie' with 'dokąd' would even sound a little "improper".

In contrast to the above, "poszłem" instead of "poszedłem" is a gross mistake both in speech and in writing. I would not say the same about 'gdzie' in place of 'dokąd'. A similar story is about the usage of 'tą' instead of 'tę' in speech; I think most grammarians these days accept the fact that almost no one will say: 'czytam tę książkę', but everyone will say 'czytam tą książkę'.
alexw68  Jan 12, 11, 12:32    #14
Ziemowit:
"poszłem" instead of "poszedłem"

Tak, tak, rozumię.

Only joking :)
Lyzko  Jan 12, 11, 14:00    #15
I was told once by a Polish teacher that 'Gdzie idziesz?' is more slangy usage than 'Dokąd idziesz?' Is this correct or is this one Pole's opinion?
alexw68 Edited by: alexw68  Jan 12, 11, 17:30    #16
Ziemowit:
Even the educated ones would say "gdzie idziesz?" rather than "dokąd idziesz?". Nevertheless, most people would never use that form in writing.

See above. Nothing slangy about it but it is less formal (and arguably more widespread). There can be a bit of a 'do as I say, but not as I do' thing with pedagogues so it's probably good to get a second, third, fourth opinion.
MrEpThreads: -
Posts: 29
Joined: Nov 29, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: MrEp  Jan 12, 11, 18:38    #17
cinek:
I think not. In proper Polish only 'dokąd' is used for motion.

You're right, mea culpa.
Using "gdzie" with motion verbs is a mistake. Most Poles however would use it anyway. It can be found even in the Bible:

"Ja jestem z tobą i będę cię strzegł, gdziekolwiek się udasz; a potem sprowadzę cię do tego kraju." (Rdz, 28,15)

Ziemowit:
most people would never use that form in writing

I agree.
strzygaThreads: 4
Posts: 986
Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀ 		Edited by: strzyga  Jan 13, 11, 03:01    #18
oh, but "gdzie idziesz" is perfectly ok,

gdzie - zaimek zastępujący człon zdania oznaczający miejsce jako środowisko odbywania się czegoś, rzadziej także cel przestrzenny, kierunek (dokąd) lub drogę, trasę (którędy)
Ej, ty na szybkim koniu, gdzie pędzisz, Kozacze?
Słownik języka polskiego PWN

gdzie - 2.wyraża potrzebę określenia kierunku, celu, do jakiego się dąży, trasy, którą się podąża
bliskoznaczne: dokąd
Praktyczny słownik współczesnej polszczyzny

Using "dokąd" every time in speech would be overly formal and stiff, it's hypercorrectness of the same kind as overly nasalizing "ę" in word endings or pronouncing jabłko instead of japko. In speech, gdzie idziesz is more natural than dokąd idziesz. And I wouldn't hesitate to use it in writing too, it would depend on the context.


"poszłem" instead of "poszedłem"

My son is of an opinion that poszłem should be used when you go to a nearby place, and poszedłem - when going far :)
Lyzko  Jan 14, 11, 13:50    #19
I figured as much, Strzyga!

Many thanks-:)


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