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iec conjugation

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chazaThreads: 49 Posts: 266 Joined: Dec 21, 09 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 10:57 #31
hi strzyga what about the present passive and active passive, these seem to me to be the 'doING, and the dONE forms. and nonfinite. chaza

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 19:47 #32
chaza: active passive Dunno what "active passive" might mean, except in classical Greek, but the present passive is: 'am invited' or 'is being cooked'.

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 12 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 20:38 #33
chaza: what about the present passive and active passive, these seem to me to be the 'doING, and the dONE forms. and nonfinite. That division does not exist in Polish.

chazaThreads: 49 Posts: 266 Joined: Dec 21, 09 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 21:12 #34
what my book has is; present active, present passive past passive adverbial particples what are they? 2nd i am fine with mieć, and the conj to mam, ma, mamy. but what is the frequentative miewam. and what are determinate and indeterminate. chaza

♂

Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Jan 21, 10, 21:36 #35

chaza:

determinate and indeterminate

This is an important part of the grammar.

determinate = a specific action (jutro idziemy do kina)
indeterminate = non-specific actions/actions in general (często chodzimy do kina)

They always come in pairs. This is an example with the pair iść/chodzić .

chaza:

what my book has is;
present active,
present passive
past passive
adverbial particples
what are they?

2nd i am fine with mieć, and the conj to mam, ma, mamy. but what is the frequentative miewam. and what are determinate and indeterminate.

There are so many other things that you should focus on than these details.
I have told you so many times to focus on the basic things. But you are not listening, and then I can't help you, sorry.

chazaThreads: 49 Posts: 266 Joined: Dec 21, 09 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 22:01 #36
ok, thanks for your help. chaza

♀

Jan 22, 10, 10:04 #37

chaza:

these seem to me to be the 'doING, and the dONE forms

These are called imiesłowy in Polish - imiesłów czynny (-ący) and imiesłów bierny (-ny).

Example: widzieć - widzący - widziany

Differently than the forms - ing and -ed in English, these are not used to form tenses.

Examples of use:
człowiek idący po drugiej stronie ulicy - the man (who is) walking on the other side of the street
list napisany po angielsku - a letter written in English - this one is used to form passive voice. But passive voice in Polish is less common than in English.

chaza:

present active,present passivepast passive

present active - ja piszę list - I am writing a letter
present passive - list jest pisany - the letter is being written
past passive - list był pisany - the letter was written

chaza:

but what is the frequentative miewam

mam - I have something (now)
miewam - I have something sometimes, now and again, not in a continuous manner
Example: Miewam czasem bóle głowy - I have headaches now and again.
But you may also say: mam czasem bóle głowy.

♂

Jan 22, 10, 10:35 #38

thanks for that strzyga
you may have read how im not listening to advice, on the contrary i am studying hard with the basics as i agree thats where i have to start. but i cant ignore the questions that i come across even though they may be too advanced for me just yet. i dont mean to disrespect any advisor on here, if i have a question like the indeterminates, cxhances are i wont undertsand them, but it puts to rest the question for now. i had a problem with jeść turns into jad when conjugated. i cant see how that is for the life in me, and have just accepted thats the way it is, and get used to it. that is fine now, but at least the enquiry has been satisfied. i still have several questions in certain areas to go yet, but as i am being told i am going with the basics and digesting how they go together.

thanks for everything

chaza

♀

Jan 22, 10, 11:08 #39

I hear you, Chaza. Nothing wrong with asking questions and I understand just where you're coming from. Some of the questions you ask are actually quite advanced and you're not able to make use of the answers yet, but at least you know where to place a particular piece of the puzzle. In time it will gradually build up into a structure and help you see the whole of the language.

I think my mind works in a similar way to yours, I too need to see a broader picture first, even if its a very vague vision, and then I can concentrate on specific parts - but I need to know where they go, which part of the structure I'm working at.

On the other hand, being a native I probably don't realize well enough which parts of the Polish grammar are most problematic for foreigners and which are truly essential. And here the advice of others comes useful - those who have learnt Polish as second or third language can give you practical hints as to what's important for a beginner and what is not.

Anyway, you're determined, and I see you're making progress. So keep up the good work. Bit by bit, it will all come into place :)

chazaThreads: 49 Posts: 266 Joined: Dec 21, 09 ♂	Jan 22, 10, 12:53 #40
im glad some one undertsands my difficult position, i will continue asking questions, if i dont get an answer, then it will become clearer later. even now some of the basics are still not sat right but at least i understand. thanks for your comments chaza

chazaThreads: 49 Posts: 266 Joined: Dec 21, 09 ♂	Edited by: chaza Jan 23, 10, 16:31 #41
my book is set out like below for these (imperfect) imperative words, which i understand to be like a command, ie go! start! but what i am coming up with dont make sense, i get them to mean, lets get dressed, they all get dressed. ------------------ubierajmy ubieraj ----------- ubierajcie niech ubiera ------niech ubierają chaza

strzygaThreads: 4 Posts: 894 Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀	Jan 23, 10, 18:27 #42
yes, these are commands ubierajmy - let's dress ubieraj - dress (its singular - command given to one person) ubierajcie - dress (plural - said do more than one person) niech ubiera - let him/her dress niech ubierają - let them dress

chazaThreads: 49 Posts: 266 Joined: Dec 21, 09 ♂	Jan 23, 10, 20:29 #43
so would i be right is saying that they all will follow this line; let's .... let him/her and the perfect would be let's get dressed let him/her get dressed chaza

♀

Jan 23, 10, 20:38 #44

chaza:

so would i be right is saying that they all will follow this line;

yes

chaza:

and the perfect would be let's get dressedlet him/her get dressed

it would be perfective ubrać, as opposed to imperfective ubierać:

ubierz się
ubierzcie się
ubierzmy się...

With "się" it means: let's dress ourselves, let him dress himself etc.
Without się it's about dressing something/somebody else:
Dress the child - Ubierz dziecko
Put ornaments on the Christmas tree - Ubierz choinkę

chazaThreads: 49 Posts: 266 Joined: Dec 21, 09 ♂	Jan 23, 10, 20:42 #45
can i have some clarity on the particples also please; pres. acc ubierający pres..pass ubieranny adv part ubierając past pass ubrany and like before they will all follow the same rules.

♀

Jan 24, 10, 03:44 #46

chaza:

pres. acc ubierającypres..pass ubierannyadv part ubierającpast pass ubrany

I'm not sure about the present/past part.
Anyway, there are two verbs:
ubierać (imperfective) and ubrać (perfective)

and the participles:
ubierać - ubierający (active adj.) - ubierając (active adv,) - ubierany (passive)
ubrać - no active participle - ubrany (passive)

so yes, you've got the forms right, except for ubierany, which is spelled with one "n".

♂

Jan 24, 10, 05:49 #47

can just say thank for the words of encouragment i saw on another posting, it really made me glad that i was getting somewhere. the question that was asked was easy really.
i have another self test if you could just say right or wrong please;

I was walking down the road when I fell into a hole. I called out help, but nobody could hear me
Chodziłem w dł droga kiedy upadłem do dziura wywołałem pomagaj ale nikt mgłyby słuchaj mj

The day was bright, the sun was hot, I laid on the beach and got burnt
Dzien naz pogodny, słońce naz gorący połoźyłem na plaża i dostawaj spalić się

chaza

♀

Jan 24, 10, 18:40 #48

chaza:

the question that was asked was easy really.

Everything is hard until it becomes easy :)

chaza:

I was walking down the road when I fell into a hole. I called out help, but nobody could hear meChodziłem w dł droga kiedy upadłem do dziura wywołałem pomagaj ale nikt mgłyby słuchaj mj

Szedłem drogą i wpadłem w dziurę. Wołałem o pomoc, ale nikt mnie nie słyszał.

Some hints:
English "up/down the road/street" translates just as "drogą/ulicą". We don't do the up/down stuff.

English "can hear, can see" etc. translates just as "widzieć, słyszeć" - we don't do the "can" stuff.

chaza:

The day was bright, the sun was hot, I laid on the beach and got burntDzien naz pogodny, słońce naz gorący połoźyłem na plaża i dostawaj spalić się

Dzień był pogodny, słońce gorące (or: grzało mocno), leżałem/położyłem się na plaży i spaliłem się.

One more thing that we don't do in Polish is the "get xxxed" stuff. The process of getting xxxed is usually included in the verb itself, here - spalić się.

What is "naz"?

You obviously still make mistakes, but the sentences are understandable.

chazaThreads: 49 Posts: 266 Joined: Dec 21, 09 ♂	Jan 24, 10, 19:08 #49
thanks. i really am gratefull for your help. the word naz is a word i have for 'was' but i also have był. obviously its wrong. at least its coming together somewhat! i'll digest what you have said and try again later. regards chaza

♀

Jan 24, 10, 19:26 #50

This is really quite an interesting question. In the Polish language most infinitives end with -ć (and I really can't tell why some of them do end with -eć and others with -ać or -ść) but what I know is that only a few end with -c, (the ones in which a velar consonant 'k' or 'g' occurs in their conjugation) (for example: verb to be able to - móc, I am able to - mogę, to help - pomóc, I help - pomagam, to say - rzec, he said - rzekł). This rule became a standard due to phonetic changes made during the proto-Slavic and Old Polish periods. Temporarily, in the nineteenth century, the trend occured to change the ending -c into -dz so the forms listed above would be spelled módz, pomódz, rzedz etc (Just like it happens with nouns, 'k' and 'g' changes into 'dz': leg - Nominative singular: noga - Dative singular: nodze; Nominative singular: droga - Dative singular: drodze etc). This tendency didn't last long and ended before 1918 since it was not justified in the historical development of the language - the infinitive's ending never goes into phonological alternation with the subject of the verb, this is how we know it is completely independent morpheme. Hence the standard of the nineteenth century was forgotten.

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