Why in the world there are three ways to write simple U ?!?!

microwac

Dec 20, 09, 13:04 #1

Why in the world there are three ways to write simple U ?!?!

Ł
Ó
U

They all are READ exactly the same.

Who is so completely insane to know which U to use when they hear
a word that contains this vocal U ?

If I think about SH , things get more crazy:

You write in Polish SH:

SZ
S
Ś
Ż
RZ

Are you people INSANE? Who thought of such complete crazy language?

Are you trying to kill your own people with this insane grammar?

I live here for 4 years and still can't understand how drunk was
the guy who created polisz language ?!?!

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09 ♀	Edited by: vetala Dec 20, 09, 13:09 #2
...WHAT? How is 'Ł' similar to 'U'? It's a completely different sound! microwac: SZ S Ś Ż RZ These are not similar in the slightest! -edit You've been living here for 4 years and you can't hear the difference? Unbelievable!

microwac	Dec 20, 09, 13:13 #3
KRAKÓW is read krakuv słodko is read suodko turku is read turku they are the exactly the same. SZIE is same as SIE same as ŚIE same as both SH from PRZEPRASZAM and I know that you are just teasing me... nobody can tell e a rational difference... maybe just a self created fantasy difference :))

♂

Edited by: Seanus Dec 20, 09, 13:13 #4

Well, let me correct you if I may. Ó and u are pronounced in the same way through linguistic evolution, e.g bułki and gówno. Although I haven't considered all the words with such combinations, I would conjecture that ó is followed by a solid consonant whereas u by a weak sound like ł, e.g kułka, bułka and pierdułka.

Ł is a different sound, like the English W.

As for SH, it can be SZ or Ś, not the others. Ż and RZ can be complicated but it comes through practising it, e.g może to morze

Kraków is not read Krakuv at all, Krakoov if anything.

Turku is toorku

Śie doesn't exist, się does

microwac	Dec 20, 09, 13:16 #5
Sean, wake up.... PRZEPRASZAM the first RZ is read SH all the way !!! POLIZ MNIE the Z is also read SH all the way !!!!

Grzegorz_Threads: 80 Posts: 6,104 Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂	Dec 20, 09, 13:21 #6
Only U and Ó are the same... the rest isn't... If you don't hear the difference between Sz and Rz you should go back to the very basic listening exercises...

MagdalenaThreads: 5 Posts: 1,365 Joined: Aug 15, 07 ♀	Dec 20, 09, 13:22 #7
http://grzegorj.w.interia.pl/gram/en/gram02.html ...enjoy.

♂

Dec 20, 09, 13:23 #8

Well, if you have any knowledge of linguistic and phonetics at all, you will know why. Does English behave perfectly rationally?

Let me ask you this. Off the top of your head, how many different sounds does 'OUGH' have? How would you teach the 'ough sound' to students of English?

Natural speech evolves. It should be PSHEPRASHAM but many Poles say it more as PSHIPRASHAM. All the way? Nah, you are wrong, trust me!

Poliż is not SH but distinctly ż

GaaThreads: 2 Posts: 179 Joined: Oct 26, 09 ♀	Dec 20, 09, 13:31 #9

VincentThreads: 15 Posts: 1,606 Joined: Sep 9, 07 ♂ [Moderator]	Dec 20, 09, 13:38 #10
Seanus: Poliż is not SH but distinctly ż Seanus wouldn't a voiced ż not turn into a voiceless sz at word ending?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Edited by: Seanus Dec 20, 09, 13:41 #11
It should but I have heard many Poles say it more like ż. If it is followed by a word like sobie then it will be more like SH in that case. Poliż sobie like poleeshsobie, like one word almost and thus ellision. Imagine a ż followed by a d, poliż dupę, would it sound more like SH or Ż, I'd say Ż.

FloripaThreads: 4 Posts: 56 Joined: Aug 12, 09 ♂	Dec 20, 09, 13:42 #12
Gaa Thanks for the pronunciation guide. Brilliant.....I'll do my best.

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 769 Joined: Apr 25, 08 ♂	Dec 20, 09, 13:44 #13
I'm ready to offer a Nobel prize nomination to somebody who can explain different pronunciation of "h" and "ch" . But I've heard there are some nuances. BTW, I'm a Warsaw born Polish native speaker with many years of experience LOL. So take it easy guys - no sense in our spelling.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Dec 20, 09, 13:50 #14
You'd better go looking for that award, Borrka, as that difference has been done successfully on another thread here ;) ;)

scottie1113Threads: 10 Posts: 813 Joined: Mar 13, 07 ♂	Dec 20, 09, 13:51 #15
Seanus: how many different sounds does 'OUGH' have? Nine. I showed this in class last week. It always makes them crazy but they enjoy it. So do I. And try to figure out the logic in pronouncing comfortable. By comparison, Polish pronunciation is easy. Sadly, not true for the grammar.

VincentThreads: 15 Posts: 1,606 Joined: Sep 9, 07 ♂ [Moderator]	Dec 20, 09, 13:55 #16
Seanus: Imagine a ż followed by a d, poliż dupę, would it sound more like SH or Ż, I'd say Ż Thanks for explaining Seanus. Will confirm that next time I see my polish friend. Might try to find another "d" word though ;)

♀

Dec 20, 09, 13:59 #17

Borrka:

different pronunciation of "h" and "ch"

"H" used to be voiced, "ch" unvoiced. Czech keeps this distinction very clear. For some reason, Poles stopped pronouncing the voiced "h" approx. 30 - 40 years ago (I can still remember it being used by some when I was tiny). Being half Czech, I used the voiced "h" when speaking Polish till my teens, when I got laughed at by my peers for this and gradually dropped it. ;-)

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 769 Joined: Apr 25, 08 ♂	Dec 20, 09, 14:04 #18
Magdalena: I used the voiced "h" when speaking Polish till my teens, when I got laughed at by my peers for this and gradually dropped it. ;-) I know the difference is still to hear for people from the Eastern part of Poland. Anyway, you are my Nobel Prize nominee LOL.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Dec 20, 09, 14:18 #19
I got 7, Scottie. 9? Are you sure? Do you remember them? The schwa is awkward for them too, a comfortable vegetable. Vincent, no problem. Please don't take my words as gospel, they are just based on listening to Poles as is much of my Polish. Poliż dywan, LOL. Lick the carpet :) The ż rolls beautifully into the d

♀

Dec 20, 09, 14:47 #20

I remember learning about the difference in pronounciation in different regions in Poland on one of my linguistics lectures. So it all depends I guess.

I also learned that there are three ways of pronouncing 'e' in the English language and pretty much from anywhere you can expect a surprise attack from 'shwa'. Phonetically, English makes much less sense than Polish. How the hell does 'knicht' become 'nait'?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Dec 20, 09, 14:48 #21
Knight become night you mean? Just like knife becomes nife ;) ;)

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09 ♀	Dec 20, 09, 14:57 #22
I meant the phonetic pronounciation. You don't pronounce 'k','g' or 'h' but you add 'a' for some reason. In Polish nearly every sound is transcribed and only sometimes one or two letters are pronounced a tad bit differently.

ewelinaq2

Dec 20, 09, 15:05 #23

hey guys

that's only for fanatics of grammar, or for regular people also?

regular people cannot care less if there is any difference between the history of ó and u,
that 500 years ago it was a way or another...

how you WRITE something it should be always easy to read,
and when you read smth it should be ALWAYS easy to write it.

In polish it is a pure hell to read and write things

each rule has thousands of exceptions

numerals are not normal

genders are crazy

when will this old unadapted language will ever evolve ?

Przepraszam you read sz and rz the same... the first sign that something is REALLY WRONG with polish language!

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Edited by: Seanus Dec 20, 09, 15:07 #24
Why a and not igh? Those little differences matter :) How many names can we expect, microwave? Przepraszam, LOL. You say potato (potayto) and I say potato (potAto) :) You say tomato (tomayto) and I say tomato (tomAto). Get it?

♀

Edited by: Magdalena Dec 20, 09, 17:12 #25

ewelinaq2:

Przepraszam you read sz and rz the same... the first sign that something is REALLY WRONG with polish language!

Yeah, especially in words like "drzewo" and "pszenica".
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Polish language, you can take it or leave it. I have studied Latin, Italian, German, and English, and dabbled in Japanese and Croatian, and I obviously know Czech and Polish. Apart from Latin and Croatian, not one of those languages has a logical and easy spelling. There are always rules to memorise, and most of the time, loads of exceptions too. And AFAIR Croatian is only easy to spell if you know the spoken language, because their spelling follows pronunciation exactly, e.g. "hlep" - "hleba", so no easy assumptions there either.

BTW, I know I am feeding a troll here, but I felt like bragging about my considerable linguistic abilities ;-)

scottie1113Threads: 10 Posts: 813 Joined: Mar 13, 07 ♂	Dec 21, 09, 15:36 #26
Seanus: I got 7, Scottie. 9? Are you sure? Do you remember them? The schwa is awkward for them too, a comfortable vegetable. though, thought, through, cough, rough,bough, thorough, lough (like Scottish loch), and my favorite: hiccough. When I prounce it hiccup (both are in the dictionary) my students always ask where the p is. I just smile. Seanus, is it nine?

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 12 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Dec 21, 09, 15:40 #27
This is the BEST pronunciation guide available on the net.

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,648 Joined: Oct 15, 08 ♀	Dec 21, 09, 15:59 #28
SzwedwPolsce: This is the BEST pronunciation guide available on the net. She has slight Eastern Polish accent (esp. when pronouncing sz like in cisza)

caprice49Threads: 4 Posts: 288 Joined: Aug 5, 09 ♀	Dec 21, 09, 16:28 #29
microwac: the first RZ is read SH all the way !!! Never. You need to adjust your linguistic ear.

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 12 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Dec 21, 09, 16:30 #30
Bzibzioh: She has slight Eastern Polish accent Maybe that's why I like the way she speaks.. hehe. :)

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