Narzędnik - Liczba Mnoga (Instrumental - plurals)

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Oct 9, 11, 22:07 #1

Hi everyone

Can anyone shed any light on a difficulty I have with narzędnik liczba mnoga.

I have 'Hurra!! Po Polsku 1' and slowly working through the workbook (zeszyt ćwiczeń). Come to check my answers but I'm confused why the answers are as they are!

We are given a statement and have to choose the correct endings. Na przykład:

1. Eva jest Niemką i Melanie jest miemką. One są Niemkami.
2. Marek jest Polakiem i Anna jest Polką. Oni są Polakami.
3. Anna i Agnieszka są sympatycznymi Polkami (sympatyczna Polka).
4. Oni są kreatywnymi studentami (kreatywny student).
5. One są ambitynymi studentakmi (ambitna studentka).
6. Interesujesz się Japonskimi autami (Japonskie auto).
7. Oni są dobrymi nauczyciekami (dobry nauczyciel).
8. Magdalena i Dorota są dobrymi naucycielkami (dobra nauczycielka).
9. Mariusz i Pawel są wysokimi mezczyzna (wysoki mezczyzna).
10. Wanda i Basia są ładnymi i sympatycznymi kobietami (ładna i sympatyczna kobieta)
11.czy jesteście ambitnymi studentami (ambitny student).
12.Interesujemy się aktualnymi informacja (aktualna informacja).

I've copied the table I am referring to at the bottom on this post.. am I stupid? Can anyone shed any light on what I'm missing. Many thanks,

TABLE ATTACHED!
Dziekuje!

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Edited by: catsoldier Oct 9, 11, 22:27 #2

Come to check my answers but I'm confused why the answers are as they are!

Which answers did you get wrong?

5. One są ambitynymi studentakmi (ambitna studentka).

One są ambitynymi studentkami.

Just above the table you posted there is also a picture with 2 men, Oni są Francuzami, a man and a woman, Oni są Francuzami and a group of women only(no men) One są Francuzkami. They use the extra k only for groups of female nouns only, in this case women.

Mariusz i Pawel są wysokimi mezczyzna (wysoki mezczyzna).

mężczyzna is a tricky one because it is a feminine noun even though it is the name for a man you must decline it as the same as a female noun. Jestem mężczyzną. Alpinista, on jest alpinistą.
In this one though, Mariusz i Pawel są wysokimi mężczyznami.

am I stupid?

You are not stupid, this is Polish grammar and you are only starting to decline nouns as far as I can see, best of luck.

E&OE

catsoldierThreads: 90 Posts: 697 Joined: Sep 27, 09 ♂	Edited by: catsoldier Oct 9, 11, 22:37 #3
Reading something always helps especially if it is unusual, maybe this link will help! In this case it may just confuse you more! :-) http://dziendobry.tvn.pl/video/kiedys-byly-mezczyznami,1,newest,10615. html

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Oct 9, 11, 22:40 #4

Hi Catsoldier

I only got 5 correct! Looking at the answers take number 8 for example.

Magdalena i Dorota są dobrymi nauczycielkami. Looking at the attached table I look at the żeński row (as Dorota and Magdelena are women, but I read the ending to be '...kimi'! The '... ymi' ending is next to the męski row...

Also number 3. Anna i Agnieszka są sympatyczynymi polkami. Looking at the table again, both żeński row, so why is the ending not ....nymi?

I'm flummoxed!

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Edited by: catsoldier Oct 9, 11, 22:46 #5

but I read the ending to be '...kimi

the kimi bit is for the adjectives of plural nouns.
For example, Dorota i Magdalena są wysokimi nauczycielkami. The adjectives decline also depending on the gender of the noun and whether they are singlular or plural. Adjectives that end in k or g take imi

both żeński row, so why is the ending not ....nymi?

I think you are mixing how to decline the adjectives and the nouns.

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Oct 9, 11, 22:58 #6

Still don't get it! It's so frustrating!

Do you think I'm reading the table wrong? I read that looking the way the table is formatted:

męski instrumental plurals = ... czymi (so when you have 2 or more male things, the word ends .czymi)

żeński instrumental plurals = ...kimi (so when you have 2 women the word ends .kimi)

nijaki instrumental plurals = ... ymi (so when you have 2 neutral things, the word ends .ymi).

... :-(

a.k.

Oct 9, 11, 23:03 #7

Chrzaszcz

I'm Polish native speaker so I have no idea about Polish grammar (I use it intuitively) and I'm not 100% sure what are you asking about. However after studing this table I think that in plural form you shouldn't look up gender in singular.
For me the pattern is easy. If you have an adjective you write it in masculine form and add suffix +mi, in all cases. Examples:

dobry + mi = dobrymi
dobrymi nauczycielkami (women), dobrymi nauczycielami (men), dobrymi dziećmi (dziecko neutral in singular)

brzydki + mi = brzydkimi
brzydkimi słowami (słowo neutral in singular), brzydkimi wyrazami (wyraz masculin in sing.), brzydkimi cechami (cecha feminine in sing.)

So as you see it does not take into account what is the gender of the noun in singular.

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Edited by: catsoldier Oct 9, 11, 23:09 #8

Still don't get it! It's so frustrating!

Getting frustrated won't help I am afraid, take a break and come back to it later.

Do you think I'm reading the table wrong?

Yes.

An idea would be to simplify things by declining the nouns only first and practice this until you know it well, forget about declining the adjectives for now.

In the long term you will need a teacher to help you.

You must be tired or something because declining the nouns in plural is simpler than in singular for the instumental case.

a.k.	Oct 9, 11, 23:10 #9
Adjectives that end in k or g take imi Overally there is no such ending in adjectivies like ky or gy. It's always gi and ki. E.g. brzydki, gorzki, słodki, kiepski, krakowski, mnogi. And probably that's the only thing they meant here.

catsoldierThreads: 90 Posts: 697 Joined: Sep 27, 09 ♂	Edited by: catsoldier Oct 9, 11, 23:14 #10
I couldn't delete my post

ChrzaszczThreads: 19 Posts: 136 Joined: Jul 4, 11 ♂	Oct 9, 11, 23:18 #11
Thanks very much catsoldier - I really appreciate your help. I know once I get this, It'll stick. I know it'll bash me between the eyes - I'm off to bed.... Thanks again for your time, Chrzaszcz

a.k.	Oct 9, 11, 23:22 #12
Thanks again for your time, What about me, I gave you a simple rule how to decline adjectives of plural nouns in narzędnik! :)

ChrzaszczThreads: 19 Posts: 136 Joined: Jul 4, 11 ♂	Oct 9, 11, 23:24 #13
I am trying to give you a thank you! I won't / didn't let me! Lets hope now! Trying to do GCSE Polish - got to learn all 7 cases!

a.k.	Oct 9, 11, 23:27 #14
Ok, in other words you should read the table in this way: the last column says that in all genders you should use -ymi ending and in case when a temat (English equivalent?) of an adjectives ends with -k or -g you use ending -imi. And that's all.

catsoldierThreads: 90 Posts: 697 Joined: Sep 27, 09 ♂	Oct 9, 11, 23:29 #15
Trying to do GCSE Polish - got to learn all 7 cases! If you are doing it for your GCSEs shouldn't you have a teacher?

ChrzaszczThreads: 19 Posts: 136 Joined: Jul 4, 11 ♂	Oct 9, 11, 23:32 #16
Dziekuje bradzo A.K. I get the -ami part. But not the rest. I think I'm reading too much into this! I'll have another bash tomorrow. I'm off to bed. Thanks again, Chrzaszcz

ChrzaszczThreads: 19 Posts: 136 Joined: Jul 4, 11 ♂	Oct 9, 11, 23:46 #17
Hi Catsoldier, I do have a (native Pole) teacher. He was doing a fantastic job, but due to work commitments, I haven't had a lesson for a few weeks. Just trying to get by on my own (with yours and A.K's help!!!) :-)

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Edited by: Leopejo Oct 11, 11, 15:22 #18

I get the -ami part. But not the rest. I think I'm reading too much into this! I'll have another bash tomorrow.

The instrumental is perhaps the easiest case there is, especially the plural. Remember that in the plural there aren't the usual masculine/feminine/neuter genders, but only "personal masculine" (men, etc.) vs. the rest (feminine, neuter, and masculine things and animals). Besides the distinction has meaning only in nominative, genitive and accusative plural, while the other plural cases are the same regardless of gender.

nouns: -ami
adjectives: -ymi or -imi
The usual ending for adjectives is -ymi, but you have to use -imi with adjectives ending in -i, which usually means adjectives ending in -ki or -gi, but also for example "tani" (cheap). So you get (wysoki) wysokimi, (drogi) drogimi and (tani) tanimi. Gender has no role in the choice between -ymi and -imi. Remember that K and G always require I after them, never Y, whatever the word or grammatical case.

Instrumental plural has a few irregular forms, for example dziecko -> dziećmi and pieniądze -> pieniędzmi.

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Nov 3, 11, 00:01 #19

Czesc everyone!

Can anyone clear something up regarding the plural Narzędnik (Instrumental) case..

I have a sentence 'Mark i Piotr są studentami politechniki'.

I understand the 'studentami' ending (intrumental plural masculine), but not sure why 'politechniki' ends the way it does?

Will the word politechnika decline as Instrumental the same for 'studentami'?

I have noun/adjective tables giving their full declentions, but can't fathom out this! Any help?

catsoldierThreads: 90 Posts: 697 Joined: Sep 27, 09 ♂	Nov 3, 11, 00:26 #20
Chrzaszcz: why 'politechniki' ends the way it does? politechniki probably has nothing to do with the instrumental, it is more likely genitive, they are either students from the politechnika or belonging to the politechnika.

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Nov 3, 11, 00:38 #21

Chrzaszcz:

'Mark i Piotr są studentami politechniki'.

just as Catsoldier says, it's genitive

student kogo? czego? politechniki - a student of the polytechnics (technical university)
and politechniki in this phrase will always remain in the genitive, no matter how you decline student or students
you may call it a fixed genitive

studenci politechniki
widziałem studentów politechniki
mówię studentom politechniki
nie ma studenta politechniki
rozmawiamy o studentce politechniki
etc.

ChrzaszczThreads: 19 Posts: 136 Joined: Jul 4, 11 ♂	Nov 3, 11, 00:48 #22
Thanks Catsoldier and Strzyga. Does it then have to decline in the Genitive - do you know why? I believe Politechni'ka is nominative form in dictionaries (and female). Looking at my noun declension table (female genitive) it could end in -y or -i. I'm stuck!

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Nov 3, 11, 00:52 #23

With a combination of two nouns - mianownik + dopełniacz (Nom. + Gen.), which is an equivalent of the English construction N of N (a bottle of milk, a student of the university), when declining the first one, the second one will always remain in the genitive.

butelka mleka
studentka uniwersytetu
grupa dzieci
kostka czekolady
torby prezentów
stosy kłopotów

the bolded noun is declined, the other one remains fixed

I really admire your efforts guys :)

ChrzaszczThreads: 19 Posts: 136 Joined: Jul 4, 11 ♂	Edited by: Chrzaszcz Nov 3, 11, 00:57 #24
Thanks a million strzyga Jestem uczę się polsgiego i myszlę język polskiego jest bardzo trudne, zwłaszcza deklinacja!!!! Czy jesteś polką?

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Nov 3, 11, 01:21 #25

Glad I could help you, Chrząszcz.

Chrzaszcz:

Czy jesteś polką?

tak

Chrzaszcz:

Jestem uczę się polsgiego i myszlę język polskiego jest bardzo trudne, zwłaszcza deklinacja!!!!

I believe verbs are much harder than nouns.

Can I give you a hint? Forget about "jestem" when rendering in Polish phrases like: I'm learning, I'm going, I'm looking. Uczę się, idę, patrzę, and that's it. We don't really have auxiliary verbs in Polish.
So the above sentence should read: Uczę się polskiego i myślę, że język polski jest bardzo trudny, zwłaszcza deklinacja!
Good job, anyway. Have fun! :)

ChrzaszczThreads: 19 Posts: 136 Joined: Jul 4, 11 ♂	Nov 3, 11, 12:27 #26
Hi moderators Just to say what a blessing this forum is! Thank you for this forum where those (like myself) have so many helpful experts in Polish to give linguistic prompts! Dziękuję bardzo Chrząszcz

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Narzędnik - Liczba Mnoga (Instrumental - plurals) - table attached