Państwo macie ..., pan masz ...

♂

May 8, 11, 16:03 #1

Hi,

I've heard native speakers use the second person together with pan/państwo, which sounds very odd to me. My impression is that using państwo together with a verb in the second person (plural) is an acceptable semi-formal form of address (I often heard it in PRL-era movies), whereas using pan/pani with the second person (singular) is really wrong and evokes poor education. However, both usages seem grammatically wrong to me.

Could some native speaker clarify this?

Thanks,
Arnaud

KoalaThreads: 1 Posts: 433 Joined: May 4, 11 ♂	May 8, 11, 16:16 #2
Expressions "panie/pani/państwo + verb in second person" are usually meant to express annoyance at the addressed person and also show disrespect while being somewhat formal. Gramatically they are correct though, as long as they're in the wołacz case. At least that's how I used it several times and heard it used.

♂

May 10, 11, 13:37 #3

arnaud:

My impression is that using państwo together with a verb in the second person (plural) is an acceptable semi-formal form of address (I often heard it in PRL-era movies), whereas using pan/pani with the second person (singular) is really wrong and evokes poor education

In contemporary language, using second p. in sing is not polite, however it used to be ok in the past (see. e.g. texts like Bible or historical novels or movies e.g. Sienkiewicz's). In today's language in singular we use it only the way Koala described (to express annoyance or disprespect), but it can be felt as strongly impolite.

On the other hand, in the past using plural with sec. pers. (Wy) was a polite way to refer to other person or persons in both sing an plural (instead of Pan/Pani/Państwo). This is still visible in e.g. commies era movies, and some older people still use it when talking to e.g. priests or elders (I often heard my grandma using it when talking to her mum).
I suspect that this is why using second person in plural is felt as acceptable. Probably it just reminds that old way of referrig the interlocutor (Wy).

Cinek

ZiemowitThreads: 10 Posts: 1,063 Joined: May 8, 09 ♂	May 10, 11, 15:14 #4
arnaud: Arnaud Despite the common and increasing use of forms like "Państwo macie/Państwo tutaj widzicie/Państwo możecie kupić tutaj wiele produktów", these are evidently wrong and should be avoided. Forms like "Pan nie umiesz naprawić kranu/Pan jesteś głupiec i matoł" are wrong but common among some less well educated people and are often heard "in the street".

♂

May 10, 11, 15:20 #5

Ziemowit:

Despite the common and increasing use of forms like "Państwo macie/Państwo tutaj widzicie/Państwo możecie kupić tutaj wiele produktów", these are evidently wrong and should be avoided. Forms like "Pan nie umiesz naprawić kranu/Pan jesteś głupiec i matoł" are wrong but common among some less well educated people and are often heard "in the street".

Where do you live? Maybe that depends on the region?

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