A question about perfective vs. imperfective?

LeopejoThreads: 6 Posts: 154 Joined: Sep 16, 09 ♂	Edited by: Moderator Apr 1, 11, 15:05 #1
A question about perfective vs. imperfective (dokonany/niedokonany) They teach that you have to use imperfective with repeated events, even if "completed". But how would you translate for example "I PASSED an exam every day"? Can you say "Codziennie zdałem egzamin (a nie tylko zdawałem)"?

strzygaThreads: 4 Posts: 986 Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀	Apr 1, 11, 15:33 #2
Zdawałem. You may add: i zdałem wszystkie :)

LeopejoThreads: 6 Posts: 154 Joined: Sep 16, 09 ♂	Apr 1, 11, 17:07 #3
Oh, now it's clear. You simply can't use dokonany with repeated events, but have to change the sentence ("wszystkie" zamiast "codziennie"). Thank you!

Lyzko	Apr 1, 11, 18:07 #4
Merely confirming the usage of 'dokonany' (perfective) ONLY with 'one-time' actions/events-:) The addition of 'codziennie' 'zawszwe' and other conjunctive adverbs turns the sentence therefore into imperfective, conversely 'teraz' etc.. make the sentence perfective: Idę (teraz) do szkoły. - dokonany Chodzę (codziennie) do szkoły. - niedokonany

Lyzko	Apr 1, 11, 20:09 #5
The rules seem easy, application though can be more than a little tricky, 'specially when to a non-native speaker, a particular action might not even seem 'repetitive', except to a Pole (..and vice-versa!)

Lyzko	Apr 1, 11, 20:59 #6
Examples: Koncert spodobał mi się. - dokonany (TERAZ) Muzyka klasyczna podoba mi się. - niedokonany (ZAWSZE) etc.....

♂

Apr 1, 11, 21:29 #7

The problem for me is that usually an aspectual pair correspond to one only "meaning" in your native language(s). But there are exceptions, where niedokonany and dokonany "mean" different things: for example uczyć się/nauczyć się polskiego (in English both are "to learn Polish", but in other languages the first is "to study" and the second "to succesfully learn"), or zdawać/zdać egzamin (to take an exam/to pass it).

So you can wonder how to express such concepts as "to learn and become fluent in a new language every month" (as opposed to just studying it), or "to pass an exam every day" (as opposed to just take it).

♂

Apr 2, 11, 00:17 #8

Lyzko, I am really sorry to say, but you are wrong.
“Chodzić “as well as “iść” are both imperfective.
“chodzić” has no perfective equivalent
“iść” has “pójść” as an perfective equivalent.
But what is more important:
the point is that the theory of imperfective versus perfective verbs does not work for foreigners.
I have been teaching Polish for foreigners for over 10 year and I cannot understand why Polish teachers repeat these confusing clichés.
Anyway I wish you success in learning Polish.
Good night and good luck!

Lyzko

Apr 2, 11, 14:23 #9

Polish Tutor, perhaps a better choice of words would have been:

"chodzić"/"chadzać" - iterative (imperfective= repeated or daily activity!!)

"iść" - determinate (perfective = occurring at the present time, as in my above example)

'.....Anyway, I wish you success in learning Polish.'

Any time you'd like a few extra pointers on learning more English, I too am always ready, willing and able-:))

"Good night and good luck!" Hmmm, sounds like you've been listening to old broadcasts of Edward R. Murrow LOL

Lyzko

Apr 2, 11, 14:31 #10

"nauczyć" without reflexive may also be "to teach" as well as "to learn" (not that the two actions aren't in a philosophical sense related..something far too many teachers (nauczyciele) often forget or ignore-:) ) "Wykładać" + genitive I've also seen and used for "teach", more in the sense of "to give a formal lecture", "hold a class", "give a lesson" etc.

"Wykładam języka angielskiego na uniwersytecie." = I teach English at university

My Polish teacher whose English was awful, would say if someone interrupted her class by knocking on the door, "Plisss, aj emm LAATURRINK rrrajt naouu!", instead of "Sorry, but I'm TEACHING right now."

)))

helpful	Apr 2, 11, 16:10 #11
Lyzko: "Wykładam języka angielskiego na uniwersytecie." Wykładam (kogo? co?) język angielski na uniwersytecie. or: Uczę (kogo? czego?) języka angielskiego na uniwersytecie

Lyzko	Apr 2, 11, 17:13 #12
Ach. so-:)

♂

Edited by: cinek Apr 4, 11, 09:55 #13

Leopejo:

"I PASSED an exam every day"?

I'd say:

Pozdawałem wszystkie egzaminy, codziennie jeden.

Leopejo:

You simply can't use dokonany with repeated events

Yes, it's a gap in out otherwise perfect grammar system he he ;-)

We usually don't notice things like that unless trying to teach someone speaking Polish. I observerd my daughter when she was learning speaking and noticed many interesting things. Children, in general easily adopt all rules and often extend them and use beyond what is allowed in 'official' grammar, so sometimes they fix gaps like this one. I think a smart kid would say here: 'zdawywałem'. It's of course incorrect from 'official' grammar poit of view, but personally I think it perfectly expresses what you need :-)

Cinek

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Apr 4, 11, 10:34 #14
cinek: Pozdawałem wszystkie egzaminy, codziennie jeden. More naturally you should say: Dzień w dzień zdawałem jakiś egzamin i wszystkie je zdałem.

♂

Apr 5, 11, 21:11 #15

Very often, to be honest, there is no difference between the perfective and the imperfective aspect: 'koncert spodobał mi się' and 'koncert podobał mi się' are virtually the same. But often there is such a difference, for example when we are describing repetitive actions: "codziennie znajdowałem jakieś pieniądze na ulicy ..." means that I performed a perfective action every day to pick it up, but I can add that: "... i dzisiaj także je znalazłem" using the perfective aspect, since 'dzisiaj' introduces a one-time event.

tomek_gThreads: 1 Posts: 3 Joined: Jun 25, 11 ♂	Jun 25, 11, 18:18 #16
So if I wanted to express an action in the past tense, would it be safe to say that imperfective/niedokonany translates to the English "was doing" or "used to do", and the perfective/dokonany would be "did"?

♂

Jun 25, 11, 22:33 #17

tomek_g:

So if I wanted to express an action in the past tense, would it be safe to say that imperfective/niedokonany translates to the English "was doing" or "used to do", and the perfective/dokonany would be "did"?

yes, it is largely so - I cannot think of any exceptions now but I'm pretty sure there are some - appart from verbs and expressions that perfective and imperfective interchange smoothly like in the example Ziemowit has given

woodgeyThreads: - Posts: 43 Joined: May 22, 11 ♂	Jun 26, 11, 00:01 #18
Leopejo: Can you say "Codziennie zdałem egzamin (a nie tylko zdawałem)"? Yes. Yes you can

strzygaThreads: 4 Posts: 986 Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀	Jun 26, 11, 00:16 #19
woodgey: Leopejo: Can you say "Codziennie zdałem egzamin (a nie tylko zdawałem)"?Yes. Yes you can no, you can't, since the action is repetitive

woodgeyThreads: - Posts: 43 Joined: May 22, 11 ♂	Jun 26, 11, 00:23 #20
strzyga: no, you can't, since the action is repetitive Dude, people know what I'm taking about

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