Usage rules of ł

POLAND . The Unofficial Guide

chazaThreads: 49 Posts: 266 Joined: Dec 21, 09 ♂	Dec 21, 09, 18:51 #1
i am aware that the letter ł is pronounced the same as the w, but what are the rules for its usage, when and where is it sounded, can anyone assist me please. examples would be nice, I know that głowa is gwova, ładny is wadny, but how is this letter used in longer words. thanks chaza

SildarThreads: - Posts: 85 Joined: Sep 20, 09 ♂	Dec 21, 09, 19:18 #2
It is not pronounced the same. the letter ł is appearing in words that simply contain that letter, if I only have a time and working microphone i would rec it for you so you could hear that w nad ł are not the same at all. It first occured in XIV century i think, don't remember why.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Dec 21, 09, 19:24 #3
Sildar: so you could hear that w nad ł are not the same at all. I think he means the English w is the same as ł, not that the Polish ł and w are the same... I think?

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: jonni Dec 21, 09, 19:26 #4
If you watch a pre-war Polish film, you will hear the ł pronounced very differently. In those days, ł (the so-called 'dark L') was vocalised more. Very old people sometimes pronounce it in this way - I rather like the sound.

chazaThreads: 49 Posts: 266 Joined: Dec 21, 09 ♂	Dec 21, 09, 22:33 #5
i understand that, i am a bit uncklear as to when i sound the letter within a word, or do i sound the letter in every word. its a bit like some letters in english are not sounded, is that the same with this letter. as i said, głowa is sounded gwova, ładny is sounded wadny, are the rules such that this letter is always sounded. thanks

♀

Dec 21, 09, 22:49 #6

jonni:

If you watch a pre-war Polish film, you will hear the ł pronounced very differently. In those days, ł (the so-called 'dark L') was vocalised more.

Very old people sometimes pronounce it in this way - I rather like the sound.

We now have phonemes /ł/ and /l/ rather than dark /l/ ,that used to be a veralised seperate speech sound, and clear /l/ which are both lateral approximants. We no longer use dark /l/ however, in British English, we distinguish those two quite easily: dark /l/ is used as words' final after a vowel and before a consonant, e.g. [bill], [help]. Clear /l/ is used before vowels and before a semivowel /j/, e.g. [leave], [blow], [silly]. Additionally, dark /l/ is also commonly used in American English, pretty much all the time I think.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Dec 21, 09, 22:51 #7
jump_bunny Yes, that is the case. Have you heard how a very old (but posh) person from the east of Poland pronounces it? A lovely sound.

jump_bunnyThreads: 8 Posts: 332 Joined: May 14, 09 ♀	Edited by: jump_bunny Dec 21, 09, 22:53 #8
jonni: Have you heard how a very old (but posh) person from the east of Poland pronounces it? Unfortunately not however, my Phonology teacher likes to imitate that sound which I find really quite interesting! This is also relatively easy to notice when listening an English native speaker pronouncing the word 'lull' - first /l/ is clear and second /l/ is dark.

♂

Dec 21, 09, 23:06 #9

It always sounds like English w.

But it can occur around sounds that the English w can't, as in robił, English w can't appear after the ee sound at the end of a word, to get it right say ee (as in see) followed by a very short oo (as in too) sound.

It occasionally isn't pronounced in colloquial speech.

Between consonants jabłko (usually pronounced as if written japko)

At the end of a word after a consonant as in poszedł (usually pronounced as if written poszet)

The ł can be pronounced in those words but it sounds very formal and most people don't bother most of the time. If it's pronounced it sounds a lot like a very short, unaccented oo sound.

jabłko (YAH-boo-koh) poszedł (POH-she-doo).

♂

Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Dec 21, 09, 23:58 #10

chaza:

i understand that, i am a bit uncklear as to when i sound the letter within a word, or do i sound the letter in every word. its a bit like some letters in english are not sounded, is that the same with this letter.

In Polish all sounds in a word are usually pronounced. And all letters/combinations are pronounced the same in all words.

Of course, all rules have rare exceptions. But the rules and structures of pronunciation are much easier than in English.

chazaThreads: 49 Posts: 266 Joined: Dec 21, 09 ♂	Dec 22, 09, 00:00 #11
thats great thank you all. chaza

nanaThreads: - Posts: 48 Joined: Sep 7, 09 ♀	Dec 22, 09, 01:09 #12
jonni: If you watch a pre-war Polish film, you will hear the ł pronounced very differently. In those days, ł (the so-called 'dark L') was vocalised more. In subway in Warsaw, the man use "dark l"- Metro Arsenalł ;)

♂

Dec 29, 09, 22:44 #13

Dec 29, 09, 22:47 - Thread attached on merging:
Ł pronounced like hard 'L', not English 'W'

Anyone on board pronounce the Polish barred 'Ł' like the hard English 'L' in lord, law or lunch, as opposed to today's common 'W' pronunciation. I understand that before hte war, only the hard Ł pronouncers could be radio presenters or perform in films and the theatre. After the war you still heard that pronuncaiton (eg Łapicki) in newsreels and early PRL films, but eventually the peasant pronunciation took over. In Poland I have encountered hard Ł speakers along the country's eastern rim (Podlasie, Lubelszczyna, Podkarpackie).
I wonder if any younger people on PF use the hard Ł as their natural, unrehearsed pronunciation.

JS08KThreads: 2 Posts: 7 Joined: Jan 15, 10 ♂	Jan 23, 10, 06:56 #14
jump_bunny: Additionally, dark /l/ is also commonly used in American English, pretty much all the time I think. You must be right on that, I was trying to sound out your examples and I really couldn't tell the difference. I do have question though. What is the name of the letter " ł "? To be honest I am kinda getting tired of calling it the "L with a slash through it".

NomsenseThreads: - Posts: 47 Joined: Sep 20, 09 ♂	Jan 26, 10, 04:34 #15
JS08K: I do have question though. What is the name of the letter " ł "? To be honest I am kinda getting tired of calling it the "L with a slash through it". The letter "Ł" is called... "Ł". We don't have a separate name for it (like "an o with a stroke" or "a closed u" for "Ó").

strzygaThreads: 4 Posts: 986 Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀	Edited by: strzyga Jan 26, 10, 04:43 #16
Nomsense: The letter "Ł" is called... "Ł". pronounced a bit like "ow" in "grown" Polonius3: I wonder if any younger people on PF use the hard Ł as their natural, unrehearsed pronunciation. no, practically you don't hear it anymore

skysoulmateThreads: 41 Posts: 3,039 Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂	Jan 26, 10, 05:32 #17
jonni: If you watch a pre-war Polish film, you will hear the ł pronounced very differently. In those days, ł (the so-called 'dark L') was vocalised more. True, my grandfather (on my mom's side) would use that Ł sound. I remember it sounded 'different' but nice. Of course I might have liked it simply because he was my Grandpa.

♂

Edited by: skysoulmate Jan 26, 10, 06:54 #18

I have an old 78-gramophone record titled “Szkoda Twoich Łez, Dziewczyno” and remember my grandfather singing along it when being playful with me grandma. He loved music, just like his dad and had many records at home - we only have a few left.

I found the very same song and the artist on youtube – my grandpa’s ł pronunciation was exactly the same as the singer’s.

I highlighted a few spots of the “dark” ł in the song.

Wow, this brought some nice memories I thought I’d forgotten…

…płyną “słowa”… - 0:17
…na mnie “zła”… - 0:28
…”posłuchaj”… - 0:29
…”miłość”… - 1:15
…szkoda twoich “łez”… - 1:28 and -2:16

...and here's another great example of how the hard ł used to be pronunced...

Ł - L with stroke

Polish
In Polish, Ł is used to distinguish historical dark (velarized) L from clear L.
In 1440 Jakub Pakoszowic proposed a letter resembling to represent clear L. For dark L he suggested l with a stroke running in the opposite direction as the modern version. The latter was introduced in 1514-1515 by Stanisław Zaborowski in his Orthographia seu modus recte scribendi et legendi Polonicum idioma quam ultissimus. L with stroke originally represented avelarized alveolar lateral approximant[1], a pronunciation which is preserved in the eastern part of Poland[2] and among the Polish minority in Lithuania, Belarus, and Ukraine.
In modern Polish, Ł is normally pronounced /w/ (almost exactly as w in English as a consonant, as in were, will, firewall but not as in new or straw).[3] This pronunciation first appeared among Polish lower classes in the 16th century. It was considered an uncultured accent by the upper classes (who pronounced Ł almost exactly as: л in East Slavic languages or L in English pull) until the mid-20th century when this distinction gradually began to fade. The old pronunciation of Ł is still fully understandable but is considered theatrical in most regions.
Polish Ł usually corresponds to Russian unpalatalised Л in native words and grammar forms, although the pronunciation of Ł and Л are different in modern Polish and Russian. Polish final Ł also often corresponds to Ukrainian final/pre-consonant Cyrillic В and Belarusian Ў. Thus, "he gave" is "dał" in Polish, "дав" in Ukrainian, "даў" in Belarusian and "дал" in Russian.
The shift from [ɫ] to [w] in Polish has affected all instances of dark L, even word-initially or intervocalically, e.g. ładny ("pretty, nice") is pronounced [ˈwadnɨ], słowo ("word") is [ˈswɔvɔ], andciało ("body") is [ˈtɕawɔ].
In Polish Ł often alternates with clear L, such as the plural forms of adjectives and verbs in the past tense that are associated with masculine personal nouns, e.g. mały → mali ([ˈmawɨ] →[ˈmali]). Alternation is also common in declension of nouns, e.g. from nominative to locative, tło → na tle ([twɔ] → [na'tlɛ]).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L_with_stroke

JS08KThreads: 2 Posts: 7 Joined: Jan 15, 10 ♂	Jan 27, 10, 17:11 #19
strzyga: pronounced a bit like "ow" in "grown" Thank you

skysoulmateThreads: 41 Posts: 3,039 Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂	Jan 27, 10, 19:19 #20
JS08K: I do have question though. What is the name of the letter " ł "? In English Ł is called - L with stroke

mafketisThreads: 17 Posts: 1,880 Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂	Jan 27, 10, 21:40 #21
skysoulmate: In English Ł is called - L with stroke By who? That sounds very awkward and unidiomatic in English imo. A term I've heard before (by linguists) is the "barred L". I prefer that since it describes the letter better (all letters are made with strokes).

skysoulmateThreads: 41 Posts: 3,039 Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂	Jan 27, 10, 21:56 #22
You're probably correct and obviously more au fait in this matter. I simply googled "polish L", etc. and few of the results mentioned "L with stroke" but I also saw the "barred L" option being mentioned. To an amateur such s myself a "barred L" implies I'm getting in trouble for using the letter L... :) http://wapedia.mobi/en/L_with_stroke

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