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Communism fell 20 years ago, Poland led the fight since WW2


pgtx Activity: 32 / 3,232
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15 Jun 2009  #31

u2.com/news/title/it-was-twenty-years-ago
WooPee Activity: 1 / 124
Joined: 1 Jul 2008 ♂
 
15 Jun 2009  #32

U2-IT WAS TWENTY YEARS AGO...

I've seen that before, it's great!
SeanBM Activity: 35 / 5,867
Joined: 10 Mar 2008 ♂
 
15 Jun 2009  #33

You know the way during communism,
everyone had a job, everyone was at least promised a flat (usually in a tower block?) and a car.
Did those things every materialise?, I mean how did you "get" a car, I heard you were put on a waiting list and if you pledged a legions to the communist party.
You would be bumped up the list, getting you closer to the top and therefore closer to having a car, is that how it worked?.
Also if you reported any non-communist activity, you got privileges?.
Privileges in communism for party members? (sounds paradoxical).





Also I am interested in when the communists devalued the Zloty on day, if you had 1000 zloty in the bank, the next day you would have 10, since then people have not trusted the banks, perhaps that is why Poland is one of the lowest mortgage takers in Europe.
Please correct me if I am wrong on any of these issues.
Eagle20 Activity: 16 / 119
Joined: 12 Dec 2007 ♂
 
15 Jun 2009  #34

U2-IT WAS TWENTY YEARS AGO...

Thanks for link.

New Year's Day, the band's first debut ten hit in the UK back in 1983, was inspired by Solidarnosc, the first non-communist trade union in then communist Poland.

Lyrics: u2.com/discography/lyrics/lyric/song/91
ConstantineK Activity: 27 / 1,266
Joined: 10 May 2007 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #35

Patriotic demonstration in 1979.

It is incredible, my friends, all contemporary regimes, for I think about communism as good pattern for modern governments, have one significant and fatal weakness which prevents them from being true representative of their people. Regardless democracy it is or autocraty, they can deal nothing with street protestors, whose protests, in fact, are inspired from behind the border. They all afraid of the bloodshed, though little bloodshed is always useful in such cases. Remember, one gun-machine's shot may save situation and cease all protests in a moment. Poor communists, they were afraid to use this salutary remedy, that was their mistake.
Borrka Activity: 40 / 603
Joined: 25 Apr 2008 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #36

Well Kostik... it was Russian communism.
Wasn't it ?
And for Russians shooting their own people with MGs is an object of national devotion, kind of the Holy Grail, traditionally reserved for externally patriotic events like заградотряд if you know what I mean.
ConstantineK Activity: 27 / 1,266
Joined: 10 May 2007 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #37

Well Kostik... it was Russian communism.Wasn't it ?

If I were on the Gorbachev's place, please don't think about me as insane "napoleon", I would wipe out all Poles rather then allow them to shake the lawfull government, believe me Borrka. That would be a good example for the rest of europe and you present masters, who actually don't care about your fate my poor brothers.
Seanus Activity: 15 / 19,984
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20 Jun 2009  #38

You would wipe out all Poles? What in God's name are you talking about, CK? What business have you got of going near Polish people? You are cut from the same cloth anyway ;)
SeanBM Activity: 35 / 5,867
Joined: 10 Mar 2008 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #39

please don't think about me as insane "napoleon", I would wipe out all Poles rather then allow them to shake the lawfull government

Napoleon, no.
Insane, yes.
ConstantineK Activity: 27 / 1,266
Joined: 10 May 2007 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #40

You would wipe out all Poles? What in God's name are you talking about, CK?

They allies with our enemies, then, why we should feel pity?
Borrka Activity: 40 / 603
Joined: 25 Apr 2008 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #41

I would wipe out all Poles

Unfortunatelly todays Russians are only in position to wipe out their ....
Oh i'll beter stop now.
Seanus Activity: 15 / 19,984
Joined: 25 Dec 2007 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #42

Fair enough, why should you feel pity? But wiping out is not a valid approach, wouldn't you say?
PolishCowboy Activity: 1 / 48
Joined: 30 Jan 2009 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #43

I would wipe out all Poles rather then allow them to shake the lawfull government

Typical backward commie ruski response.

Lawful government?
Bullshi!t, did the Poles vote for your "lawful" fu(ked up form of government or even want it? No, they did not. Go back behind your curtain Ivan.
pawian Activity: 134 / 6,657
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20 Jun 2009  #44

They all afraid of the bloodshed, though little bloodshed is always useful in such cases. Remember, one gun-machine's shot may save situation and cease all protests in a moment. Poor communists, they were afraid to use this salutary remedy, that was their mistake.

Not necessarily. You must have overlooked the massacre in Lubin above.

g
Inhabitants of Lubin were indomitable. On the next day after the massacre they went out to streets again to protest against communist crimes.

f
ConstantineK Activity: 27 / 1,266
Joined: 10 May 2007 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #45

nfortunatelly todays Russians are only in position to wipe out their ....

Let's wait alittle, we will see what will happen when your main ally exerting all last means they remain, will fall under the burden of huge debts. Aaand... here we are, your devoted brothers and faithful neighbors...

But wiping out is not a valid approach, wouldn't you say?

Who said about validity? It is a question of existance, either Russians or you (poles are only particular case)...
Seanus Activity: 15 / 19,984
Joined: 25 Dec 2007 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #46

The commies were just controlling monsters. Why should some politicians have excessive control over the masses, CK? It's absurd!

Go and read Animal Farm, CK, it might open your eyes.

I am not Polish, CK, you should know that by now. Sasha reckons you are full of sh*t, I have to agree. You are one of those nutjob drinkers of 80% vodka, the kind that wakes up to 5 shots of freezing cold vodka in the morning.

Throttle back, man, throttle back! Try Żołądkowa Polish vodka, it might cure you, albeit partially.
pawian Activity: 134 / 6,657
Joined: 30 May 2008 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #47

Typical backward commie ruski response.
Go back behind your curtain Ivan.

Guys, calm down. :):):) Constantine is a vampire longing for bad emotions, he plays with you by means of little provocations. :):):)
Seanus Activity: 15 / 19,984
Joined: 25 Dec 2007 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #48

Och, we know that. It's all a laugh anyway, he has about as much power as my little pinky. Another rambler :)
ConstantineK Activity: 27 / 1,266
Joined: 10 May 2007 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #49

Typical backward commie ruski response.Lawful government?

I am neither Ivan nor communist

On the next day after the massacre they went out to streets again to protest against communist crimes.

it means only one thing, it was not enough. They should massacre them in such extent, that would be no one who could go out to protest again.

Why should some politicians have excessive control over the masses,

because masses must be under control.

Go and read Animal Farm, CK, i

Thank you for your wise advise, but I have read it long ago.
Seanus Activity: 15 / 19,984
Joined: 25 Dec 2007 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #50

Masses must respect law and order to a reasonable extent. However, civil disobedience is sometimes called for and your python state doesn't allow that.

Vital lessons not learned then ;)
pawian Activity: 134 / 6,657
Joined: 30 May 2008 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #51

Hey, make up your mind at last if you want a little bloodshed
hough little bloodshed is always useful in such cases. Remember, one gun-machine's shot may save situation and cease all protests in a moment.

or a big massacre.
it means only one thing, it was not enough. They should massacre them in such extent, that would be no one who could go out to protest again.

:):):):)


Poor communists, they were afraid to use this salutary remedy, that was their mistake.

Actually, they were never afraid to use lethal violence against protesting workers and others. If you look carefully through this thread, you will see it.

But after continual usage of violence they realised it didn`t help, only made the situation much worse in the long run. Angry workers didn`t want to work and eventually even communist rulers, those Red Princes, started complaining about economy when they couldn`t give the police and army satisfactory pay rises and new equipment because there was not enough money.

Finally communists realised they needed to give away power to avoid being eaten alive by the furious hungry nation and nobody would help them because their protectors, red army and police, would be hungry too.
Ponial, towariszcz? :):):):):):):)
gumishu Activity: 9 / 3,776
Joined: 6 Apr 2009 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #52

Also I am interested in when the communists devalued the Zloty on day, if you had 1000 zloty in the bank, the next day you would have 10, since then people have not trusted the banks, perhaps that is why Poland is one of the lowest mortgage takers in Europe.
Please correct me if I am wrong on any of these issues.

I can't remember any bank savings devaluation you mention (imposed by government regulations) but there was a time that there was hyperinflation (government went on printing money) and that thing caused bank savings to turn into peanuts - the only exception were so called lodging booklets 'książeczki mieszkaniowe' that were later (in the 90's and maybe even up to now) recounted - but that money could have only be used to buy flats (maybe also houses)
those who received credit before the hyperinflation suddenly were paying back peanuts on the other hand
so some people would lose savings of their lifes and some would receive free state support at the same time (I guess those who knew about what was going to happen were surely taking credits then) others were just lucky


in 1995 we had denomination - 1 polski nowy złoty replaced 10000 previous złotych
and I was still not able to count in PLN as recently as 2000 instead counting in millions ;)
but it was by no means another reaping of the nation's savings

however sometime in the 50's the commies made an assault on nation's savings performing money replacement - they printed new notes (don't know about coins) and single person or family could only receive a limited amount of new currency for the old currency - it was an attempt to destroy private sector - I think the very moment most deals in private sector started to be performed in dollars (illegally)
pawian Activity: 134 / 6,657
Joined: 30 May 2008 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #53

There were more victims of the martial law. Altogether - about 100.

Grzegorz Przemyk, a 19 yo high school student, beaten up to death at the police station in 1983.

g

Przemyk`s grave
g

One more death which shocked Poles. Solidarity priest Jerzy Popiełuszko was assassinated by the communist secret police. The murder was so blatant that the regime was forced to react. The murderers were arrested and received due punishment.

On October 19, 1984, a frail, young priest was savagely beaten and drowned by government security agents in the woods of rural Poland. The brutal death of this holy priest, carried out in the dark of night, captured the attention of the world, and his martyrdom is increasingly seen as a sacrifice leading not only to the resurrection of his own country as a free and independent nation of Christian people, but a bloody sacrifice redeeming all enslaved European peoples from the Baltic to the Urals.
g

g

The nation`s answer: But they can`t kill the soul.
g

Bogdan Włosik, shot during a demonstration in 1983.

Monument
g
ConstantineK Activity: 27 / 1,266
Joined: 10 May 2007 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #54

they would be eaten alive by the furious hungry nation and nobody would help them because their protectors,

That is bull§hit, you know it very well, history knows alot of examples when rulling regimes were in far greater danger. Remember our civil war, then contrrevolutionary forces were not far from moscow, but failed, or the same situation during ww2. Just entire ruling elites were already corrupted by US.

Masses must respect law and order to a reasonable extent.

You think? Actually masses are the same livestock, why they should posess any rights?
Seanus Activity: 15 / 19,984
Joined: 25 Dec 2007 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #55

I think you are either off your chump or away on a tangent. Please clarify, what do you understand by the word 'masses'?
ConstantineK Activity: 27 / 1,266
Joined: 10 May 2007 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #56

Please clarify, what do you understand by the word 'masses'?

common people, just like you and me
Seanus Activity: 15 / 19,984
Joined: 25 Dec 2007 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #57

CK, I'm not gonna play your game. Human rights law was a major part of my university education and if you wipe out rights with one dismissive stroke, you need to visit your local mental hospital and fast.

Quit the fooling around and argue like Sasha does. Show that you are intelligent and not just a wind-up merchant and buffoon.
pawian Activity: 134 / 6,657
Joined: 30 May 2008 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #58

That is bull§hit, you know it very well, history knows alot of examples when rulling regimes were in far greater danger. Remember our civil war, then contrrevolutionary forces were not far from moscow, or the same situation during ww2.

Yes, the Soviet regime managed to survive because they still had some support from people. Stalin, despite his crimes, received support from common Russians who decided to defend their country against a greater enemy.

At the end of communism,when economy was crumbling into pieces, regimes realised they were losing support not only of common people but also the police and army, two fundamental pillars without which communist system would have collapsed in any country after 3 months after its introduction.
Shortly speaking, party bosses weren`t sure if the forces would stand by them in case of trouble. They prefered to resign than check it out for themselves. :):):):)
SeanBM Activity: 35 / 5,867
Joined: 10 Mar 2008 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #59

Popieluszko

They have recently made a film about this horrendous act. And there is more interesting details about him Here. Wiki. Thanks gumishu, I was not clear on the details.
Nathan Activity: 19 / 1,510
Joined: 13 Feb 2009 ♂
 
20 Jun 2009  #60

At the end of communism,when economy was crumbling into pieces, regimes realised they were losing support not only of common people but also the police and army, two fundamental pillars without which communist system would have collapsed in any country after 3 months after its introduction.
Shortly speaking, party bosses weren`t sure if the forces would stand by them in case of trouble. They prefered to resign than check it out for themselves.

Good point.



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Communism fell 20 years ago, Poland led the fight since WW2
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