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Communism fell 20 years ago, Poland led the fight since WW2

sjam Threads: 5
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Joined: Jan 13, 2009
  ♂   Jun 12, 2009, 10:00am  #

pawian:
The martial law was implemented by Poles against other Poles. Soviet troops didn`t participate in it.

Did any Polish troops mutiny against the regime at this time or did they all just follow orders supporting General Jaruzelski and martial law?


pawian Threads: 171
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Joined: May 30, 2008
  ♂   Edited by: pawian  Jun 12, 2009, 10:09am  #

The martial law imposed multiple restrictions on freedom but didn`t suppress the aspirations of the nation. From 1981 to 1989 Solidarity led an underground activity and encouraged Poles to resist communism. Resistance, due to the regime`s brutality, was carried out in a peaceful way. E.g, the boycott of state TV.

TV NEWS OBJECTORS
It happened in 1982 in Świdnik, an industrial town in southern Poland, where people found many ways in which they expressed their disagreement with the regime`s policy. The disagreement which in fact, in conditions of totalitarian system, meant protest. Such nonviolent protest was something that communists couldn`t cope with.

""One evening, just as the nightly television news came on, a Pole fed up with the daily dose of government propaganda got out of his chair, turned his TV set toward the window and went out for a stroll. No one in Swidnik, a factory town 100 miles southeast of Warsaw, claims to know just who made that first "news-walk," but within days almost the entire population of 30,000 began to crowd the tree-lined main street for an evening promenade during the 7:30 newscast. When local authorities clamped on a 7 o'clock curfew to counter the protest, the resourceful residents of Swidnik took a walk during the 5 o'clock news broadcast. Frustrated officials finally lifted the curfew, and after a month of newswalks, Swidnik's citizens decided they had made their point and stayed home-but not before their unique piece of resistance had spread to Olsztyn, Lublin, Bialystok, even Warsaw. Explained a Swidnik news-walker: "Every contact between the people and the authorities can be used to show dissatisfaction with martial law and everyone can do it in his own way."


Another way to demonstrate one`s attitude to communism was going to street demonstrations. They always ended in violent riots.
The most massive and biggest demonstrations took place on 31 August, 1982, to celebrate the 2nd anniversary of Solidarity. Hundreds of thousands people went out to streets, clashes lasted for many hours till night, several thousand were arrested, cities were totally tear gassed. In one case the police shot at people, killing 3. Such demonstrations, big or small, continued till 1989.

The riot police didn` t pity anyone. They were said to be drunk or sometimes even drugged.

See how the police attacks peaceful elderly people who attended the mass in the Old Town in Warsaw, 1983.
dziennik.pl/foto/article166058/Palowanie_pod_katedra.html?gallerySeq=1#top

Krakow, Nowa Huta. See the gas attack on the crowd of demonstrators.

Blood

Walesa in the picture and V-sign meaning victory over communism.

Lenin desecrated
http://www.pbase.com/zyziza/image/71723249

The police protect Lenin monument
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDivjTOOMl8&feature=related

Detained

Detention center. People were kept for months.
j

A sudden attack on unexpecting women who have just put a floral cross on the ground in the site where John Paul II gave a sermon.

j

j

j

In 1982 the police used guns against demonstrators which were going home after a peaceful protest. 3 men were killed on the spot.

On August 31, 1982, the communist regime perpetrated a crime in Lubin that shall forever remain in the hearts and minds of the townsmen as well as all Poles. Due to the actions of Civic Militia 3 people were fatally shot and other tens were wounded. The memory of the victims of the Martial Law is crucial for coming generations. The memory of Michał Adamowicz, Andrzej Trajkowski and Mieczysław Poźniak, all of whom were killed by the 'people's government', should never wane. The names of those whose decisions contributed to the killing of innocent people should also never be forgotten.

j

j

This is the best known photograph of the event - men are carrying a fatally wounded mate under gun fire. You must admit it is really shocking. It is a symbol of communist rule in Poland.
j
j

Temporary monument on the day after the killing.
j

j

Bullet holes
j

j

Inhabitants of Lubin were indomitable. On the next day after the massacre they went out to streets again to protest against communist crimes.
j

j

j

Films from various protests and events of the martial law:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxNKQZ8mUyc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOrP2srt-5w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtupz-ulbNo&feature=related

Street fights in Krakow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idbvMgCZoCg&feature=related

Contemporary reconstruction of street protest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s4JqymihiQ&feature=related


The nation`s answer - religion.
j

WooPee Threads: 2
Posts: 133
Joined: Jul 1, 2008
  ♂   Jun 15, 2009, 06:28am  #

pgtx:
U2-IT WAS TWENTY YEARS AGO...

I've seen that before, it's great!

SeanBM Threads: 42
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Joined: Mar 10, 2008
  ♂   Jun 15, 2009, 08:59am  #

You know the way during communism,
everyone had a job, everyone was at least promised a flat (usually in a tower block?) and a car.
Did those things every materialise?, I mean how did you "get" a car, I heard you were put on a waiting list and if you pledged a legions to the communist party.
You would be bumped up the list, getting you closer to the top and therefore closer to having a car, is that how it worked?.
Also if you reported any non-communist activity, you got privileges?.
Privileges in communism for party members? (sounds paradoxical).





Also I am interested in when the communists devalued the Zloty on day, if you had 1000 zloty in the bank, the next day you would have 10, since then people have not trusted the banks, perhaps that is why Poland is one of the lowest mortgage takers in Europe.
Please correct me if I am wrong on any of these issues.

Eagle20 Threads: 26
Posts: 128
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
  ♂   Edited by: Eagle20  Jun 15, 2009, 02:20pm  #

pgtx:
U2-IT WAS TWENTY YEARS AGO...

Thanks for link.

New Year's Day, the band's first debut ten hit in the UK back in 1983, was inspired by Solidarnosc, the first non-communist trade union in then communist Poland.

Lyrics: u2.com/discography/lyrics/lyric/song/91

ConstantineK Threads: 32
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  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 02:40pm  #

pawian:
Patriotic demonstration in 1979.

It is incredible, my friends, all contemporary regimes, for I think about communism as good pattern for modern governments, have one significant and fatal weakness which prevents them from being true representative of their people. Regardless democracy it is or autocraty, they can deal nothing with street protestors, whose protests, in fact, are inspired from behind the border. They all afraid of the bloodshed, though little bloodshed is always useful in such cases. Remember, one gun-machine's shot may save situation and cease all protests in a moment. Poor communists, they were afraid to use this salutary remedy, that was their mistake.

Borrka Threads: 48
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  ♂   Edited by: Borrka  Jun 20, 2009, 03:06pm  #

Well Kostik... it was Russian communism.
Wasn't it ?
And for Russians shooting their own people with MGs is an object of national devotion, kind of the Holy Grail, traditionally reserved for externally patriotic events like заградотряд if you know what I mean.

ConstantineK Threads: 32
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  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 03:30pm  #

Borrka:
Well Kostik... it was Russian communism.Wasn't it ?

If I were on the Gorbachev's place, please don't think about me as insane "napoleon", I would wipe out all Poles rather then allow them to shake the lawfull government, believe me Borrka. That would be a good example for the rest of europe and you present masters, who actually don't care about your fate my poor brothers.

Seanus Threads: 19
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  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 03:33pm  #

You would wipe out all Poles? What in God's name are you talking about, CK? What business have you got of going near Polish people? You are cut from the same cloth anyway ;)

SeanBM Threads: 42
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  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 03:43pm  #

ConstantineK:
please don't think about me as insane "napoleon", I would wipe out all Poles rather then allow them to shake the lawfull government

Napoleon, no.
Insane, yes.

ConstantineK Threads: 32
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  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 03:44pm  #

Seanus:
You would wipe out all Poles? What in God's name are you talking about, CK?

They allies with our enemies, then, why we should feel pity?

Borrka Threads: 48
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  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 03:46pm  #

ConstantineK:
I would wipe out all Poles

Unfortunatelly todays Russians are only in position to wipe out their ....
Oh i'll beter stop now.

Seanus Threads: 19
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Joined: Dec 25, 2007
  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 03:47pm  #

Fair enough, why should you feel pity? But wiping out is not a valid approach, wouldn't you say?

PolishCowboy Threads: 1
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Joined: Jan 30, 2009
  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 03:51pm  #

ConstantineK:
I would wipe out all Poles rather then allow them to shake the lawfull government

Typical backward commie ruski response.

Lawful government?
Bullshi!t, did the Poles vote for your "lawful" fu(ked up form of government or even want it? No, they did not. Go back behind your curtain Ivan.

pawian Threads: 171
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  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 04:03pm  #

ConstantineK:
They all afraid of the bloodshed, though little bloodshed is always useful in such cases. Remember, one gun-machine's shot may save situation and cease all protests in a moment. Poor communists, they were afraid to use this salutary remedy, that was their mistake.

Not necessarily. You must have overlooked the massacre in Lubin above.

g
pawian:
Inhabitants of Lubin were indomitable. On the next day after the massacre they went out to streets again to protest against communist crimes.

f

ConstantineK Threads: 32
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Joined: May 10, 2007
  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 04:04pm  #

Borrka:
nfortunatelly todays Russians are only in position to wipe out their ....

Let's wait alittle, we will see what will happen when your main ally exerting all last means they remain, will fall under the burden of huge debts. Aaand... here we are, your devoted brothers and faithful neighbors...

Seanus:
But wiping out is not a valid approach, wouldn't you say?

Who said about validity? It is a question of existance, either Russians or you (poles are only particular case)...

Seanus Threads: 19
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  ♂   Edited by: Seanus  Jun 20, 2009, 04:06pm  #

The commies were just controlling monsters. Why should some politicians have excessive control over the masses, CK? It's absurd!

Go and read Animal Farm, CK, it might open your eyes.

I am not Polish, CK, you should know that by now. Sasha reckons you are full of sh*t, I have to agree. You are one of those nutjob drinkers of 80% vodka, the kind that wakes up to 5 shots of freezing cold vodka in the morning.

Throttle back, man, throttle back! Try Żołądkowa Polish vodka, it might cure you, albeit partially.

pawian Threads: 171
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  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 04:07pm  #

PolishCowboy:
Typical backward commie ruski response.
Go back behind your curtain Ivan.

Guys, calm down. :):):) Constantine is a vampire longing for bad emotions, he plays with you by means of little provocations. :):):)

Seanus Threads: 19
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  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 04:17pm  #

Och, we know that. It's all a laugh anyway, he has about as much power as my little pinky. Another rambler :)

ConstantineK Threads: 32
Posts: 1,879
Joined: May 10, 2007
  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 04:22pm  #

PolishCowboy:
Typical backward commie ruski response.Lawful government?

I am neither Ivan nor communist

pawian:
On the next day after the massacre they went out to streets again to protest against communist crimes.

it means only one thing, it was not enough. They should massacre them in such extent, that would be no one who could go out to protest again.

Seanus:
Why should some politicians have excessive control over the masses,

because masses must be under control.

Seanus:
Go and read Animal Farm, CK, i

Thank you for your wise advise, but I have read it long ago.

Seanus Threads: 19
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  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 04:37pm  #

Masses must respect law and order to a reasonable extent. However, civil disobedience is sometimes called for and your python state doesn't allow that.

Vital lessons not learned then ;)

pawian Threads: 171
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  ♂   Edited by: pawian  Jun 20, 2009, 04:38pm  #

Hey, make up your mind at last if you want a little bloodshed
ConstantineK:
hough little bloodshed is always useful in such cases. Remember, one gun-machine's shot may save situation and cease all protests in a moment.

or a big massacre.
ConstantineK:
it means only one thing, it was not enough. They should massacre them in such extent, that would be no one who could go out to protest again.

:):):):)


Poor communists, they were afraid to use this salutary remedy, that was their mistake.

Actually, they were never afraid to use lethal violence against protesting workers and others. If you look carefully through this thread, you will see it.

But after continual usage of violence they realised it didn`t help, only made the situation much worse in the long run. Angry workers didn`t want to work and eventually even communist rulers, those Red Princes, started complaining about economy when they couldn`t give the police and army satisfactory pay rises and new equipment because there was not enough money.

Finally communists realised they needed to give away power to avoid being eaten alive by the furious hungry nation and nobody would help them because their protectors, red army and police, would be hungry too.
Ponial, towariszcz? :):):):):):):)

gumishu Threads: 18
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  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 04:48pm  #

SeanBM:
Also I am interested in when the communists devalued the Zloty on day, if you had 1000 zloty in the bank, the next day you would have 10, since then people have not trusted the banks, perhaps that is why Poland is one of the lowest mortgage takers in Europe.
Please correct me if I am wrong on any of these issues.

I can't remember any bank savings devaluation you mention (imposed by government regulations) but there was a time that there was hyperinflation (government went on printing money) and that thing caused bank savings to turn into peanuts - the only exception were so called lodging booklets 'książeczki mieszkaniowe' that were later (in the 90's and maybe even up to now) recounted - but that money could have only be used to buy flats (maybe also houses)
those who received credit before the hyperinflation suddenly were paying back peanuts on the other hand
so some people would lose savings of their lifes and some would receive free state support at the same time (I guess those who knew about what was going to happen were surely taking credits then) others were just lucky


in 1995 we had denomination - 1 polski nowy złoty replaced 10000 previous złotych
and I was still not able to count in PLN as recently as 2000 instead counting in millions ;)
but it was by no means another reaping of the nation's savings

however sometime in the 50's the commies made an assault on nation's savings performing money replacement - they printed new notes (don't know about coins) and single person or family could only receive a limited amount of new currency for the old currency - it was an attempt to destroy private sector - I think the very moment most deals in private sector started to be performed in dollars (illegally)

pawian Threads: 171
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  ♂   Edited by: pawian  Jun 20, 2009, 04:52pm  #

There were more victims of the martial law. Altogether - about 100.

Grzegorz Przemyk, a 19 yo high school student, beaten up to death at the police station in 1983.

g

Przemyk`s grave
g

One more death which shocked Poles. Solidarity priest Jerzy Popiełuszko was assassinated by the communist secret police. The murder was so blatant that the regime was forced to react. The murderers were arrested and received due punishment.

On October 19, 1984, a frail, young priest was savagely beaten and drowned by government security agents in the woods of rural Poland. The brutal death of this holy priest, carried out in the dark of night, captured the attention of the world, and his martyrdom is increasingly seen as a sacrifice leading not only to the resurrection of his own country as a free and independent nation of Christian people, but a bloody sacrifice redeeming all enslaved European peoples from the Baltic to the Urals.
g

g

The nation`s answer: But they can`t kill the soul.
g

Bogdan Włosik, shot during a demonstration in 1983.

Monument
g

ConstantineK Threads: 32
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  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 04:54pm  #

pawian:
they would be eaten alive by the furious hungry nation and nobody would help them because their protectors,

That is bull§hit, you know it very well, history knows alot of examples when rulling regimes were in far greater danger. Remember our civil war, then contrrevolutionary forces were not far from moscow, but failed, or the same situation during ww2. Just entire ruling elites were already corrupted by US.

Seanus:
Masses must respect law and order to a reasonable extent.

You think? Actually masses are the same livestock, why they should posess any rights?

Seanus Threads: 19
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Joined: Dec 25, 2007
  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 04:57pm  #

I think you are either off your chump or away on a tangent. Please clarify, what do you understand by the word 'masses'?

ConstantineK Threads: 32
Posts: 1,879
Joined: May 10, 2007
  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 05:04pm  #

Seanus:
Please clarify, what do you understand by the word 'masses'?

common people, just like you and me

Seanus Threads: 19
Posts: 27,014
Joined: Dec 25, 2007
  ♂   Jun 20, 2009, 05:07pm  #

CK, I'm not gonna play your game. Human rights law was a major part of my university education and if you wipe out rights with one dismissive stroke, you need to visit your local mental hospital and fast.

Quit the fooling around and argue like Sasha does. Show that you are intelligent and not just a wind-up merchant and buffoon.

pawian Threads: 171
Posts: 8,951
Joined: May 30, 2008
  ♂   Edited by: pawian  Jun 20, 2009, 05:07pm  #

ConstantineK:
That is bull§hit, you know it very well, history knows alot of examples when rulling regimes were in far greater danger. Remember our civil war, then contrrevolutionary forces were not far from moscow, or the same situation during ww2.

Yes, the Soviet regime managed to survive because they still had some support from people. Stalin, despite his crimes, received support from common Russians who decided to defend their country against a greater enemy.

At the end of communism,when economy was crumbling into pieces, regimes realised they were losing support not only of common people but also the police and army, two fundamental pillars without which communist system would have collapsed in any country after 3 months after its introduction.
Shortly speaking, party bosses weren`t sure if the forces would stand by them in case of trouble. They prefered to resign than check it out for themselves. :):):):)



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Communism fell 20 years ago, Poland led the fight since WW2

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