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Endecja - State Sponsored Anti Semitism 1935 - 1939.

MareGaea Threads: 32
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  ♂   Edited by: MareGaea  Jul 27, 2010, 11:12pm  #

I did a search on Endecja, the nationalist Polish party that came to power after the death of Pilsudski. Remarkably, with all the "historians" we have on here, this word could not be found at all, as I did a search on the entire forum.

We all know that Pilsudski was against anti semitism. To him it only matters how loyal one was to the state. Endecja, the right-wing nationalist Polish party that gained momentum after Pilsudski's death introduced sth else: state supported anti semitism in Poland. In the Endecja-years when anti semitism was made official policy in Poland.

- Ghetto benches in the Universities;
- Jews blocked out of most, if not all parts, of public and social life;
- Random violence destroying Jewish properties, leading most Jews, who were prosperous before the event, to poverty as of course they weren't compensated;
- Boycott of Jewish shops;
- Boycott of Jewish doctors, lawyers and the like;
- A crusade against the koosker slaughtering of animals, under the presumption of "animal rights";

And the list goes on.

Remarkably this epoch never gets mentioned by our Polish "historians", yet I want it discussed. I want views on this era, opinions on Endecja and why some ppl still proclaim that they are anti semite because of the fact that some Jews welcomed the Soviet soldiers and betraying Poland that has been so good to them 700 years ago. I guess what happened 700 years ago does not matter much when you see your house destroyed.

NB, this is not an attempt to start an anti Polish thread. I just want the immediate pre-WW2 era discussed as I have nowhere on this forum come across a discussion concerning specific the years from 1935 to 1939. I think it's a good topic for discussion. At least it's a NEW topic that, so it appears, has never been mentioned here on PF :)

Discuss.

NB, I want a normal discussion about this topic. Anybody who feels the need to attack me yet again, will be reported.

>^..^<

M-G (curious)

dtaylor5632 Threads: 27
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Joined: May 2, 2009
  ♂   Jul 27, 2010, 11:19pm  #

Ooooo I think you may have stumbled upon a section of history the "historians" may have wanted to be swept under the carpet and forgotten about ;)

Happy discussing ;)


MareGaea Threads: 32
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  ♂   Jul 27, 2010, 11:21pm  #

Well, they always argue in favour of a complete overview of Polish history; this is part of it, whether they like it or not.

>^..^<

M-G (still curious)

Sokrates Threads: 12
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  ♂   Edited by: Sokrates  Jul 27, 2010, 11:22pm  #

Given that Jews entertained racist marketing policies and anti-Polish pro-communist movement all i can say is ifully support endecja's reprisals.

You've got a minority thats an enemy of your country and actively works to destroy it, you limit their freedom, polish Jews should be glad they didnt face court martial for treason and trials for racism.

dtaylor5632 Threads: 27
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  ♂   Jul 27, 2010, 11:23pm  #

Sokrates:
Jews entertained racist marketing policies and anti-Polish pro-communist movement

Facts?
Sokrates:
ifully support endecja's reprisals.

I think we all knew your neo-nazi agenda's :P

MareGaea Threads: 32
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  ♂   Edited by: MareGaea  Jul 27, 2010, 11:24pm  #

Well, funny that of all those "anti Polish" actions the Jews supposedly have undertaken I only found that in 1931 about 80 per cent of them mentioned Yiddish or Hebrew as their native tongue. Nothing else. To Pilsudski that apparently never was a problem. To him only loyalty to the state of Poland counted and with 130.000 Jewish soldiers fighting the Soviet troops in 1921, he considered them pretty loyal to Poland.

>^..^<

M-G (still curious)

Nathan Threads: 33
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  ♂   Jul 27, 2010, 11:27pm  #

MareGaea:
M-G (still curious)

Thanks, MG for posting - never heard of it before.
Sokrates:
ifully support

Is this why you posted "I" with a low case letter?

MareGaea Threads: 32
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Joined: Feb 6, 2008
  ♂   Jul 27, 2010, 11:41pm  #

WikiLink On Endecja

Quote:

Simultaneously the ND emphasized its anti-Semitic program, aimed at excluding Jews from Polish social and economic life and ultimately at pushing them to emigration from Poland.[3] Antisemitic actions and incidents – boycotts, demonstrations, even attacks – organized or inspired by National Democrats occurred during the 1930s. The most notorious actions were taken by a splinter group of radical young former NDs who formed the fascist-inspired National Radical Camp (Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny)[4]

>^..^<

M-G (still curious though)

Matyjasz Threads: 2
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  ♂   Jul 27, 2010, 11:47pm  #

This topic has been mentioned on the forums several times. Instead of endecja type Roman Dmowski in the search toolbar.

MareGaea Threads: 32
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  ♂   Edited by: MareGaea  Jul 27, 2010, 11:59pm  #

Matyjasz:
This topic has been mentioned on the forums several times.


Only one hit, nearly two years ago, October 2008:

Roman Demowski, Polish Adolf Hitler.

But actually it's not the same topic. That thread is about Dmowski as a person and statesman, this is about the State conducted and sponsored anti semitism of the years 1935 - 1939.

>^..^<

M-G (yay!)

Matyjasz Threads: 2
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  ♂   Jul 28, 2010, 12:03am  #

MareGaea:
Only one hit, nearly two years ago, October 2008:



That's because you have to search for the name in messages. 44 hits.

MareGaea Threads: 32
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  ♂   Edited by: MareGaea  Jul 28, 2010, 12:09am  #

Got indeed a little more hits, many from the same thread a few from other threads. But they are still not the same topic. Like I said, the topic is State sponsored anti semitism from 1935 to 1939.

*And besides, this thread is not intended to discuss how many times Dmowski has been mentioned as side remark, it's to discuss the above given topic*

Also remarkable that a few of our renowned "historians" call Dmowski a genuine Polish hero of the 20th century, or use likewise wordings.

Edit: Dmowski was in office for not even two months in 1923, so that definitively puts him out of the range of this topic.

>^..^<

M-G (curious)

Borrka Threads: 48
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  ♂   Edited by: Borrka  Jul 28, 2010, 12:53am  #

MareGaea:
130.000 Jewish soldiers fighting the Soviet troops in 1921


Nobody was fighting the Soviet troops 1921.

MareGaea:
In the Endecja-years when anti semitism was made official policy in Poland.

"Endecja years" are fiction - phenomena you're talking about took place when Sanacja had the political power in Poland. We can speak only about general radicalization of political arena what was fully in line with the pan-European scenario.

MareGaea:
the State conducted and sponsored anti semitism of the years 1935 - 1939.

Again fiction. Actually "the state" used to jail both ... Polish nationalists and rebelling minorities.

zetigrek     Edited by: zetigrek  Jul 28, 2010, 01:04am  #

MareGaea:
Also remarkable that a few of our renowned "historians" call Dmowski a genuine Polish hero of the 20th century, or use likewise wordings.


Oh... Liga Polskich Rodzin isn't in parlament. So don't worry, they are miniority ;)

Sokrates Threads: 12
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  ♂   Jul 28, 2010, 01:13am  #

MareGaea:
130.000 Jewish soldiers fighting the Soviet troops in 1921

Only about 10.000 Jews fought Bolsheviks, more then 150.000 joined them, in 1921 the war was over so you were cought lying again.

Zed Threads: -
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  ♂   Jul 28, 2010, 01:20am  #

Borrka is right. Endecja never ruled in pre-war Poland.

guzzler Threads: 2
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  ♂   Jul 28, 2010, 01:21am  #

MareGaea:
Well, funny that of all those "anti Polish" actions the Jews supposedly have undertaken I only found that in 1931 about 80 per cent of them mentioned Yiddish or Hebrew as their native tongue.



Yiddish is a mixture of German and Hebrew, spoken by the Gerrer Chassidim who were the largest Jewish group in Poland. They are ultra orthodox and lived in closed communities, and only spoke yiddish. And polish with an accent, which was the downfall of some of the ones who tried to flee the Germans. The Polish Blue Police who worked along side the Germans could pick-up the accent.


MareGaea:
I did a search on Endecja, the nationalist Polish party that came to power after the death of Pilsudski. Remarkably, with all the "historians" we have on here, this word could not be found at all, as I did a search on the entire forum



M-G, Abraham Stern on behalf Jabotinsky the founder and leader of the Irgun, in February 1939 approached the Polish government with a plan to oust the British in Palestine. I idea was for the Poles to take over the mandate, and transfer the Jews to Palestine. And Palestine would become a homeland for the Jews, and a colony of Poland. The Polish government asked the British government and they refused.

Plan B, was for Poland to supply the Irgun with weapons to arm 40,000 Jewish volunteers already in place around Europe. And help establish an officers training camp, it was set up in the mountains of Zakofna South West Poland in the Spring of 1939. The guns were supplied and the camp started training Irgun officers and NCO'S, the was aim was to over throw the British in Palestine and transfer the Polish Jews. Jabotinsky had been warning Jews in Poland to get out because of what was happening in Germany but they would not listen. In late May the British rounded up the Irgun leaders, and the operation never took place. Jabotinsky set up a government in exile in the USA.

Zed Threads: -
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  ♂   Jul 28, 2010, 01:28am  #

guzzler: a government in exile? please...

Yiddish is 90 german, however archaic, the rest is slavic or hebrew.

Sokrates Threads: 12
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  ♂   Jul 28, 2010, 01:29am  #

I'm afraid MG is not interested in any of your posts, he posted to show Poles as vile antisemits and that was that.

Ironside Threads: 56
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  ♂  :-( Jul 28, 2010, 01:33am  #

MareGaea:
Remarkably, with all the "historians" we have on here, this word could not be found at all, as I did a search on the entire forum.

Do you imply something? Its funny as the only one claiming to be historian on PF is you.
Its the internet and maybe some real historians do not find it proper to back up their free opinion by claiming professional status.
I also noticed that your only serious interest in regards to Polish history is when it intertwine with Jewish question or some related issues.
Why don't you start treads about history of Jews in Poland?

MareGaea:
Ghetto benches in the Universities;

I would like to point out to the historian that ghetto benches as you choose to call it was done by student organizations and has nothing to do with the state!
I'm sure such proficient historian like yourself wouldn't deem to notice that fact.
I gather it must be a test for posters on the very thread.
Government policy concerning University's was about limits for non-Polish students, limits which existed in Britain at the time and in USA till about 50-ties or 60-ties if I'm not mistaken - however much longer than in Poland.
MareGaea:
under the presumption of "animal rights";

I presume that you are against animal right and cruelty toward animals is for you only pretext for hidden agendas and lobby to use animal rights activist for pursuing their sinister activities, whatever it may be ?
I sorry if I'm mistaken but didn't you laugh your head off, disposing conspiracy theories (Seanus) as blunder and silliness?!

Well if you are curios something as a lecture.


Jews in Poland - A Documentary History, Hippocrene Books, New York 1998

lobsterg Threads: -
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  ♂   Edited by: lobsterg  Jul 28, 2010, 01:34am  #

Sokrates:
Given that Jews entertained racist marketing policies and anti-Polish pro-communist movement all i can say is ifully support endecja's reprisals.

You've got a minority thats an enemy of your country and actively works to destroy it, you limit their freedom, polish Jews should be glad they didnt face court martial for treason and trials for racism.


Sokrates:
Only about 10.000 Jews fought Bolsheviks, more then 150.000 joined them, in 1921 the war was over so you were cought lying again.



Nothing can really justify actions of a sovereign state against its ethnic minorities, might there have been any in Poland or anywhere else.

MareGaea Threads: 32
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  ♂   Edited by: MareGaea  Jul 28, 2010, 01:34am  #

Sokrates:
Only about 10.000 Jews fought Bolsheviks, more then 150.000 joined them


Facts pls?

Sokrates:
you were cought lying again


Since when is a typo lying? And I presume you mean "caught"? Now we're talking about typos...

Borrka:
"Endecja years" are fiction - phenomena you're talking about took place when Sanacja had the political power in Poland. We can speak only about general radicalization of political arena what was fully in line with the pan-European scenario.


Actually, it was in only a handful of countries that made it an official policy to effectively block Jews out of the governmental institutions. So it wasn't for sure a pan-European trend. Fascism and National Socialism were popular in the 30's, yes, but not many made it to the government and not many went that far to block Jews from any govt institution.

"General Radicalisation"? Blocking even educated Jews from entry into jobs suitable? Barring them becoming a member of respective unions and societies when they were doctors, lawyers? Willfully destroying their houses? General Radicalisation?

Zed:
Endecja never ruled in pre-war Poland.


With the influence of the Endecja party growing, antisemitism gathered new momentum in Poland and was most felt in smaller towns and spheres in which Jews came into direct contact with Poles, such as in Polish schools or on the sports field. Further academic harassment, such as the introduction of ghetto benches, which forced Jewish students to sit in section of the lecture halls reserved exclusively for them, anti-Jewish riots, and semi-official or unofficial quotas (Numerus clausus) introduced in 1937 in some universities halved the number of Jews in Polish universities between independence and the late 1930s. The restrictions were so inclusive that, while Jews made up 20.4 percent of the student population in 1928, by 1937 their share was down to only 7.5 percent.[63]

I wouldn't say these were just spontaneous outbursts, but it looks more like a structural string of events happening in the years immediately preceding WW2.

They may have not been in the actual government, but their influence was undeniable.

Ironside strikes again:
Why don't you start treads about history of Jews in Poland?


I just did, Einstein.


>^..^<

M-G (still curious)

Sokrates Threads: 12
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  ♂   Edited by: Sokrates  Jul 28, 2010, 01:35am  #

lobsterg:
Nothing can really justify actions of a sovereign state against its ethnic majorities.

Rubbish, majority of Jews were pro-Soviet and enacted policies that were meant to bankrupt polish businesses everywhere they could, that pretty much makes them enemies of Poland and enemies you fight.
MareGaea:
Facts pls?

Sure thing but how about you first prove this:
MareGaea:
with 130.000 Jewish soldiers fighting the Soviet troops in 1921


MareGaea Threads: 32
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  ♂   Edited by: MareGaea  Jul 28, 2010, 01:38am  #

Sokrates:
Rubbish, majority of Jews were pro-Soviet and enacted policies that were meant to bankrupt polish businesses everywhere they could, that pretty much makes them enemies of Poland and enemies you fight.


Again, can you prove any of this within the context of the decades before WW2?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

lobsterg Threads: -
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  ♂   Edited by: lobsterg  Jul 28, 2010, 01:40am  #

Sokrates:
Rubbish, majority of Jews were pro-Soviet and enacted policies that were meant to bankrupt polish businesses everywhere they could, that pretty much makes them enemies of Poland and enemies you fight.



Oh yeah? Poor Polish businesspeople. Are you serious? Btw, I edited my post, I am just starting to contribute to this forum and my English is far from being perfect. I am sorry.

Sokrates Threads: 12
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  ♂   Edited by: Sokrates  Jul 28, 2010, 01:41am  #

MareGaea:
Again, can you prove any of this within the context of the decades before WW2?

Yes i can but how about you first prove your claim? You know you made it first, i'm happy to provide links any minute just go ahead and prove yours:)
lobsterg:
Poor Polish businesspeople. Are you serious?

Yes, there was a regular economic war between Jewish and Polish businesses since Jews attempted to monopolize areas based on ethnicity (working with other Jews targetting non-jewish business) so it wasnt specifically against Poles but against all non-Jews.

lobsterg Threads: -
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  ♂   Edited by: lobsterg  Jul 28, 2010, 01:49am  #

Sokrates:
Yes, there was a regular economic war between Jewish and Polish businesses since Jews attempted to monopolize areas based on ethnicity (working with other Jews targetting non-jewish business) so it wasnt specifically against Poles but against all non-Jews.


Again: Are you serious? Wouldn't it be a case for the poor Polish businesspeople to better organize themselves instead of engaging the state authorities to start actions against its own citizens?

MareGaea Threads: 32
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  ♂   Edited by: MareGaea  Jul 28, 2010, 01:53am  #

Sokrates:
I'm afraid MG is not interested in any of your posts, he posted to show Poles as vile antisemits and that was that.


Of course. I said in the first post that if I hear anything of that nonsense I'd report the person. I will do so if you keep it up. I know the period doesn't fit in your world image, but if you want a complete picture, this is part of it. Denying it doesn't make it go away.


>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Sokrates Threads: 12
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  ♂   Edited by: Sokrates  Jul 28, 2010, 01:56am  #

MareGaea:
Of course. I said in the first post that if I hear anything of that nonsense I'd report the person. I will do so if you keep it up. I know the period doesn't fit in your world image, but if you want a complete picture, this is part of it. Denying it doesn't make it go away.

Ok so any proof of this statement:
MareGaea:
and with 130.000 Jewish soldiers fighting the Soviet troops in 1921

Or do you still shirk away from backing up whats simply another one of your many lies?
lobsterg:
Again: Are you serious? Wouldn't it be a case for the poor Polish businesspeople to better organize themselves instead of engaging the state authorities to start actions against its own citizens?

Both happened, in the end the Jews had to contend with both organised business and goverment based backlash as well as social one, when peple realised jewish practices were ethnic based they obviously did not appreciate it.

Ironside Threads: 56
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  ♂  :-( Edited by: Ironside  Jul 28, 2010, 02:00am  #

MareGaea:
I just did, Einstein.

No you did not - you stared the thread about anti-Semitism, and although it fits general description of history- is not history of Jews in Poland -is history from specific angle.

I would like to point about that I didn't insult you in anyway as you requested but you made ironic remarks which could be read as insulting.
Shouldn't you report yourself then ?



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Endecja - State Sponsored Anti Semitism 1935 - 1939.

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