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Leon Feldhendler: A hero murdered?

MareGaea Threads: 32
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  ♂   Edited by: MareGaea  Jun 13, 2010, 03:51am  #

Leon Feldhendler was, together with Russian Alexandr Pechersky the main organizer of the revolt of Sobibor of 14 October 1943, which led to the fleeing of app. 300 Jews and other prisoners from Sobibor. However, only 50 lived to see the end of the war. Pechersky and Feldhendler were among those. Feldhendler lived after the war in Lublin and got shot through the door of his apartment in that city. This happened on the 2nd of April 1945 and he died on the 6th of April of that year. Most accounts contribute this murder to a right-wing Polish nationalists movement, called Narodowe Sily Zbronje. These guys were anti-Communist and anti-semitic and formed part of the Polish resistance. However, Adam Kopciowski says his murder was part of the larger framework of the total of 118 Jews which were murdered in Lublin in the afterwar years. Other accounts state that four Polish resistance fighters pleaded guilty and were executed in Lublin Castle, 12th of April 1945. I don't find that very reliable as it would be too swift to happen, especially in the chaotic days right after the war. Other accounts state that he was murdered because of some love affair. In all, it's not really clear what exactly happened and if the government took action and if it did, what kind of action. The superswift finding, pleading of being guilty, trial, judgement and execution in a mere 6 days gives way to doubt and according to Kopciowski this incident has never fully been investigated and in fact Sobibor wasn't really known until in the 80's a TV movie was made dealing with the topic of the revolt in the camp.

What I want to know is: was this incident dealt with by the government and if yes, what was the outcome? Was this part of the context of erupting anti Jewish violence that occured in those months immediately succeding World War 2? Was Feldhendler accidentally shot, like one source says or was it willfull murder? Or can he be counted as one of the 118 Jewish post war victims as Kopciowski of the Holocaust Research Centre in Lublin says?

Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Feldhendler

About Sobibor:

http://blogs.liverpoolecho.co.uk/bandofbloggers/2009/10/on-this-day-oc tober-14th---upr.html

The Axis-History forum entry which states the version of the four Polish resistance fighters, which imo is not really feasible:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=166541&start=0

The entry of Adam Kopciowski concerning the issue:

http://www.zagladazydow.org/index.php?show=423&strona=481

>^..^<

M-G (curious)


z_darius Threads: 17
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  ♂   Jun 13, 2010, 06:20am  #

MareGaea:
Was this part of the context of erupting anti Jewish violence that occured in those months immediately succeding World War 2? Was Feldhendler accidentally shot, like one source says or was it willfull murder?

You have already answered your own questions by doubting, predictably, the versions explaining that it may have been an accident.

So just to make the long story short, emphatically yes, he was willfuly killed by Poles who had previously sucked anti-semitism with their mothers' milk. After the murder they drunk 3 pints Feldhendler's blood which goes well with the aforementioned mothers' milk. The event took place exactly at midnight (it is not yet clear if there was a full Moon at the time), and in a bloody frenzy they performed a dance of disco polo (3 times) and then polka (2 times). After that they dispersed in search of more Jewish blood. Some witnesses say they left the murder scene on flying brooms.

Hope this helps.

1jola Threads: 33
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  ♂   Edited by: 1jola  Jun 13, 2010, 08:55am  #

Every single Jewish death in Poland was committed by antisemic Poles. That includes Jews who stepped on landmines, were working for Gestapo or NKVD, Jewish Ghetto Police, or joined UB as a great career move in post-war communist Poland.

Anyone disagreeing with me is an antisemite.

1jola Threads: 33
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  ♂   Jun 13, 2010, 09:22am  #

MareGaea:
Most accounts contribute this murder to a right-wing Polish nationalists movement, called Narodowe Sily Zbronje.

Got a source for this?

MareGaea:
Other accounts state that four Polish resistance fighters pleaded guilty and were executed in Lublin Castle, 12th of April 1945.


Got a source for this?

MareGaea:
I don't find that very reliable as it would be too swift to happen, especially in the chaotic days right after the war.

You must be unfamiliar with the swiftness of communist "trials" and the efficiency of Jewish prosecutors and judges in Stalinist times in executing AK soldiers, but I understand, Polish history is a mystery to you to uncover.

Why don't you register at AHF and we'll see what you got there among some historians.

vetala Threads: -
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  ♀   Edited by: vetala  Jun 13, 2010, 10:48am  #

MareGaea:
Other accounts state that four Polish resistance fighters pleaded guilty and were executed in Lublin Castle, 12th of April 1945. I don't find that very reliable as it would be too swift to happen, especially in the chaotic days right after the war.

They were probably used as scapegoats. The communist government used whatever excuse it could to get rid of the resistance fighters.

1jola Threads: 33
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  ♂   Edited by: 1jola  Jun 13, 2010, 11:21am  #

But, but they pleaded guilty, and everyone knows Stalinist trials were fair and they never used torture to get confessions.

Torture trial lifts lid on Poland's Stalinism

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/torture-trial-lifts-lid -on-polands-stalinism-1409625.html

THE MOST Adam Humer will admit to is that he ordered his subordinates to use force against political prisoners, and that he himself sometimes slapped prisoners or abused them verbally.

But the old men and women who sit in the front rows of the Warsaw court where he is on trial believe they know better. They regard him as one of the most evil security policemen, who tortured and killed political prisoners in Poland's Stalinist period.

The trial of Mr Humer, 76, a seemingly unrepentant Communist, and 13 of his former colleagues, is the most important case dealing with the repression of the late 1940s and early 1950s to reach Poland's courts since the Communists lost power in 1989. And it may be the last. Poland's left-wing government, a coalition of former Communists who won last September's elections, shows little inclination to take up such cases, and Poles themselves are divided over whether to rake over events that occurred more than 40 years ago.

One of Mr Humer's co-defendants, Roman Laszkiewicz, is a former security policeman who held Soviet citizenship. Denying the charge of physical and moral abuse of prisoners, he told the court: 'We were not Gestapo.'

Gestapo was mild compared with these beasts, as many accounts of AK soldiers describe.

MareGaea Threads: 32
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  ♂   Edited by: MareGaea  Jun 13, 2010, 12:05pm  #

z_darius:
You have already answered your own questions by doubting, predictably, the versions explaining that it may have been an accident.


It just seemed a bit fast - not even a week they manage to find the guys, get a confession out of them, judge and trial them and finally execute them. Considering that he was a hero, one would say his murder got high exposure in those days. Can you pls be less touchy and accept that this is also part of your history? Thanks.

1jola:
Got a source for this?


Forgot your reading glasses? I've added a few links.

1jola:
Why don't you register at AHF and we'll see what you got there among some historians.


I'm already a member, but I use it mainly as reference as tend to focus more on WW1 than on WW2 as WW1 is more interesting from a historical IR viewpoint. WW2 was, besides all the ideological nonsense, an ordinairy conquerer's war. Most of the entries there are credible, but with some I have doubts, like with this one. This is not based on any prejudice, but merely on the timescale on which it happened, according to the poster in question. See my response to darius.

1jola:
You must be unfamiliar with the swiftness of communist "trials"


He bases his explanation on the Polish version of Wiki and your own words are not to trust Wiki too much and in this case, all the versions of Wiki that I can read give another explanation. Read the German version for example, there it says he was killed by a love rival.

Edit: if you read well, you would've known that I also doubt if these guys were the perpetrators at all. My questioning of the speed of things implies a doubt whether these guys were, like vetala said, used as scapegoats in order to get something done as it concerned a hero, a hero who half a year earlier led a successful uprising in a KZ. But I guess that's too subtle for you as it turns out.

vetala:
They were probably used as scapegoats. The communist government used whatever excuse it could to get rid of the resistance fighters.


That might be very well the reason, but if they weren't the perpetrators, who was/were? And why? Imo, he is considered a hero for leading the uprising at Sobibor. That is actually when I came across him. I was just wondering why there could be a relatively successful uprising in Sobibor (and relatively early as well, 1943) and not in other camps. As far as I know there were only minor uprisings in other camps, most notably the one in Auschwitz Birkenau where one of the crematoria got blown up.

>^..^<

M-G (just one case and some are already standing on their hind legs)

vetala Threads: -
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  ♀   Jun 13, 2010, 12:16pm  #

MareGaea:
That might be very well the reason, but if they weren't the perpetrators, who was/were?

Could be anybody. I guess we'll never know.

MareGaea:
I was just wondering why there could be a relatively successful uprising in Sobibor (and relatively early as well, 1943) and not in other camps.

There had to be someone strong-willed and with large following who would organize and lead it. Perhaps there was just nobody like this in other camps.

nott Threads: 4
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  ♂   Jun 13, 2010, 12:33pm  #

the case is obscure, and I doubt if you find the answer here, unless there is an eye-witness reading the PF. Any version can be true. And no, the speed of reaction is not the reason to doubt this particular version any more than the others, it rather adds credibility to it.

MareGaea Threads: 32
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  ♂   Jun 13, 2010, 12:45pm  #

nott:
Any version can be true. And no, the speed of reaction is not the reason to doubt this particular version any more than the others, it rather adds credibility to it.


I guess indeed we will never know. About the speed, it just has the shine over it, like vetala says, that they were looking for a scapegoat, just for the mere reason that this was a hero. I'm not one for conspiracy-theories, but I always find it striking how quickly in general they find sb who dunnit when a famous person gets killed, robbed or sth. This might just as well be the case.

>^..^<

M-G (nuff said)

Ironside Threads: 56
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  ♂  :-( Jun 13, 2010, 01:12pm  #

MareGaea:
Considering that he was a hero, one would say his murder got high exposure in those days.

During this time in Poland there were plenty heroes killed and murdered, all the same...

1jola Threads: 33
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  ♂   Jun 13, 2010, 01:16pm  #

I hope you are getting the picture of what I have been telling you.

Your source:

Wiki Heading:
Murdered in Lublin


However, on April 2, 1945, he was shot through the closed door of his flat as he got up to investigate a commotion in an outer room. Feldhendler and his wife managed to escape through another door and made their way to Lublin's Św. Wincentego á Paulo hospital, where he underwent surgery but died four days later.

Wounded through a closed door and that is murder? Who writes this stuff. Well, Jews do. And they will keep repeating it forever.

According to most accounts, Feldhendler was killed by right-wing Polish nationalists,[2][3][4][5][6][7]

Six Jewish sources and two we can read on-line. This is the kind of unreferenced nonsense we get:

Source 1.
Ironically, after surviving the hell of Sobibor, Leon Feldhendler was killed in his home in Lublin, soon after the liberation by anti-Semitic Polish countrymen.

Source 2
Some of them, however, including Feldhendler, were killed _after the liberation_, on April 2, by right-wing Poles.

That is all it says about it in the whole text.

It gets worse:

sometimes identified as the Narodowe Siły Zbrojne,[8][9] an anti-Communist and anti-Semitic[10][11][12] paramilitary organization which formed part of the Polish resistance.

Written by idiots who don't know who is who but let not any details spoil the anti-Polish hate. Then the friendly NKVD 'tries" five AK soldiers and executs them. These stories are what the world is fed on.

MareGaea Threads: 32
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  ♂   Jun 13, 2010, 02:10pm  #

1jola:
Written by idiots who don't know who is who but let not any details spoil the anti-Polish hate. Then the friendly NKVD 'tries" five AK soldiers and executs them. These stories are what the world is fed on.


What is it with you that you're dismissing anything that doesn't support your own opinion. This is also part of Polish history, whether you like it or not.

Nobody says here that the NKVD was friendly or that the AK did it. I think it's already established that it's not a 100 per cent clear who killed him.

Feldhendler gets mentioned a few times in the second source.

And besides, since you're on a rampage against alledged "anti-Polonism" (while in fact this topic is far from that), I just wonder why you were so quick to condemn the Jews who were forced to hang those Poles in the "Poles executed by Jews"-thread. I guess we all know the reason. You have proven it now and you will prove it again and again.


Ironside:
During this time in Poland there were plenty heroes killed and murdered, all the same...


It was indeed a chaotic time. I was just wondering whether the authorities were so quick to provide an "example" by getting "scapegoats" as it was a kinda public figure. Normally these cases take longer, much longer. It just seemed that they were in a hurry to put the case into the archives, never to be reopened again. And while Jolanda is dismissing herself as impartial participant with rantings about anti-Polonism, which is totally irrelevant in this case, I have seen some good answers, however, I am aware that the case will be remaining in shrouds of mystery. Unless, lik Nott says, we will have the entrance of an eye witness, which I don't see happening.

>^..^<

M-G (nuff said)

1jola Threads: 33
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  ♂   Jun 13, 2010, 03:00pm  #

MareGaea:
Feldhendler gets mentioned a few times in the second source.

Not about his death, pal. The second source has perhaps some shady past himself, or haven't you heard. Allegations of war crimes?

MareGaea:
And besides, since you're on a rampage against alledged "anti-Polonism" (while in fact this topic is far from that), I just wonder why you were so quick to condemn the Jews who were forced to hang those Poles in the "Poles executed by Jews"-thread. I guess we all know the reason. You have proven it now and you will prove it again and again.

Why don't you post what I posted there for the record.

I believe I said he, who the Germans made hang Poles, should not be blamed for it till I read in a later paragraph of that text that he actually enjoyed it since they were AK(sic). AK wasn't even formed then yet and for a Jew to enjoy hanging Polish soldiers who were fighting the Nazis while he was sitting in the ghetto working for the Nazi war effort is sick and deranged.

...........................

What do you say we drop the unfriendly mode and try to verify this wiki entry, the sources as much as we can, and if we see that it does not reflect the truth as much as it can be established, we modify the entry to reflect what we find out. If he was indeed murdered, let that stay, but if not, it should be changed. I am interested to read source #13, for example. We don't have to rush and perhaps the thread on AHF will yield reliable information as Thompson is pretty strict about sourcing. Nuff said.

shush Threads: 1
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  ♀   Jun 13, 2010, 03:56pm  #

MareGaea:
And while Jolanda is dismissing herself

It says in his profile - Male, i dont know, it's misleading - jola is a female name. Sorry for off topic

Sokrates Threads: 12
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  ♂   Jun 13, 2010, 04:31pm  #

MareGaea:
It was indeed a chaotic time. I was just wondering whether the authorities were so quick to provide an "example" by getting "scapegoats" as it was a kinda public figure.

As always you understand jack, the authorities of the time did not give a sh*t about him, they used his death to kill off several AK officers, its even conceivable that he got dusted by NKVD so these people could be framed for the murder.

The sources you quote however are clearly anti-Polish, they're not only that but they use eristic figures to avoid real burden of proof, in other words they make sh*t up to smear Poles.

It is possible he got dusted by AK but given the circumstances it looks like they were framed by NKVD and tortured the living crap out of to get a confession.

MareGaea Threads: 32
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  ♂   Edited by: MareGaea  Jun 13, 2010, 04:44pm  #

1jola:
What do you say we drop the unfriendly mode


Agreed. But I cannot continue today; I have to be somewhere in a moment and I won't be back until late tonight. Tomorrow I have to cramp a few meetings in the morning as I'm off in the afternoon, so probably it's best to continue tomorrow evening or else Tuesday. Ok?

Sokrates:
The sources you quote however are clearly anti-Polish


The Holocaust Research centre of the University of Lublin is anti-Polish? You've got to be kidding.

>^..^<

M-G (nuff said)

nott Threads: 4
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  ♂   Jun 13, 2010, 07:50pm  #

MareGaea:
The Holocaust Research centre of the University of Lublin is anti-Polish?


No such thing, actually. Google search for 'Holocaust Research Centre in Lublin' (unquoted) puts your original post on position 6, and search for 'Holocaust Research Centre Lublin' on the 16th position. www.zagladazydow.org describes Kopciowski as a 'historian, assistant prof. in the Department of Culture and History of the Jews, Lublin University'.

There is 'Polish Center for Holocaust Research', though: 'a section of the Institute of Philosophy and Sociology of the Polish Academy of Sciences. It is the first and so far the only research institution in Poland dealing exclusively with Holocaust studies.' Kopciowski is not amongst its members. There are 10 members, mostly from Warsaw, as it seems, including 3 from the Jewish Historical Institute, Warsaw, and one from the US Holocaust Memorial Museum. The leader is a psychologist, 'involved in the study of the Holocaust for 15 years'.

As for the Jewish Historical Institute, the first page on its site promotes 'Shtetl', to be screened there on Tuesday and Wednesday, and a meeting with its director following on Thursday. No mention about Romaniuk. Just an observation, really.

Seems your joint revisionist project might be quite interesting to watch :)

Sokrates Threads: 12
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  ♂   Edited by: Sokrates  Jun 13, 2010, 10:27pm  #

MareGaea:
The Holocaust Research centre of the University of Lublin is anti-Polish? You've got to be kidding.

This got my head scratching, i know of no such centre, i even googled for it and there's still no such centre, did you pull it from your arse or just failed to check if your source even exist? Its bullshytpedia ffs.

Iet me enlighten you about post-commie govt of Poland, since pre-war elites were dead, abroad or unwilling to co-operate the show was run by a bunch of unwashed peasants for whom there was no such thing as "hot case" or "public figure".

The way i see it is he got fragged by NKVD to frame AK soldiers since these guys were far more important on the communist hit list than a random Jew, as for AK it did not go after Jews at any point during or after the war the exception being if a Jew served the communists or otherwise betrayed Poland.]

Unless, which i suspect to be the case you're not interested in anything but smearing these people.

MareGaea Threads: 32
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  ♂   Edited by: MareGaea  Jun 13, 2010, 11:33pm  #

nott:
'historian, assistant prof. in the Department of Culture and History of the Jews, Lublin University'.


This is what I meant, mea culpa. They do research into the Holocaust, perhaps a bit confusing there, if it is, I am sorry about this. It was a reference to Adam Kopciowski.

nott:
revisionist


Why revisionist? I just want to know what happened to Feldhendler and his killers. I don't think that is really revisionism. Be careful, you're starting to lose the air of neutrality here.

Sokrates:
a random Jew


I don't think Feldhendler was a random Jew, he was pretty high profile imo.

Sokrates:
Unless, which i suspect to be the case you're not interested in anything but smearing these people


I really think you should seek some professional help.


>^..^<

M-G (off to bed)

nott Threads: 4
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  ♂   Edited by: nott  Jun 14, 2010, 12:19am  #

MareGaea:
Why revisionist? I just want to know what happened to Feldhendler and his killers. I don't think that is really revisionism. Be careful, you're starting to lose the air of neutrality here.


And if I loose it, then what?

Try to think of the r... word without its political connotations. You are going to, possibly, revise the Wiki article, right? :)

I've just scanned more than 30 pages of Google search. Most of it is simply 'murdered by AK/NSZ/Polish rightists'. One 'by anti-Semitic mob', and one 'possibly love affair'. One site says Hersz Blank was executed in November 1944, half a year before Feldhendler's death, and continues: 'Some of his murderers were later arrested and executed in Lublin on April 12, 1945, although for another reason. They were rehabilitated after the regime changed, and even received compensation.' Other says they weren't rehabilitated, but only acquitted.

Feldhendler's wife, as quoted, relates the 'shot through the closed door' version. Would be fine, only it's the same site that states the killers were executed, and later got compensation.

One text, quite widely distributed, refers to a book in Hebrew, by the look of it, seemingly unavailable in the Net.

Seems a pretty tough job, unless you can put your hands on source materials.

And you must've noticed that I am speaking of 'execution' and 'killing', and not 'murder'. Does it make me look like I loose the air of objectivity?


MareGaea:
don't think Feldhendler was a random Jew, he was pretty high profile imo.


I wouldn't be too sure. It was freshly after the war, information didn't circulate like it does today. Apparently, Wiesenthal as late as in 1957 said he had never heard about Sobibor.

z_darius Threads: 17
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  ♂   Edited by: z_darius  Jun 14, 2010, 04:35am  #

MareGaea:
I don't think Feldhendler was a random Jew, he was pretty high profile imo.

How high was his profile in April of 1945? Who raised that profile? German newspapers during WW2?

He is high profile now and to you, perhaps to a few others today.
The war wasn't even over when he got killed, and he was one of tens of thousands who were killed for one reason or another, Poles, Jews, Ukrainians, Germans. It would be even hard to say definitely who was in Poland's government at the time.

Sokrates Threads: 12
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  ♂   Jun 14, 2010, 08:00am  #

MareGaea:
This is what I meant, mea culpa. They do research into the Holocaust, perhaps a bit confusing there, if it is, I am sorry about this. It was a reference to Adam Kopciowski.

Kopciowski is a Jew, pardon me but given the sheer mind boggling amount of slander directed towards Poland via various jewish circles i'm not going to take him seriously especially given the kind of statements he uses.
MareGaea:
I don't think Feldhendler was a random Jew, he was pretty high profile imo.

In post war moonscape Poland? No he was not.

There is another possibility that you (of course) "forgot" to include in your attempts to slander all things Polish.

Feldhendler was living with another Jew from Sobibor Hersz Biankami, this guy was (as with so many Jews) a former NKVD officer responsible for murdering countless Poles, Polish Home Army had a death sentence issued on him and since this was the same flat it might've been indeed mistake though its still likely NKVD did it and framed the AK soldiers.

Another interesting info, did you know that Feldhendler capitalised on former Sobibor victims by employing them in his company for minimal wage? So we've got two Jews, one NKVD murderer, the other a shameless exploiter of concentration camp victims, which one deserved death more?:)

plk123 Threads: 20
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  ♂   Jun 14, 2010, 08:19am  #

^^^ your hate for jews is clear in every single post. jeez. how can anyone discuss anything with you?

MediaWatch Threads: 31
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  ♂   Jun 14, 2010, 08:40am  #

plk123:
your hate for jews is clear in every single post. jeez. how can anyone discuss anything with you?


What about all the Jewish hate for Poles in this forum?

All Jews do on this forum is try to DEFINE ALL POLES with SELECTED articles about Polish-anti-semitism (usually exagerrated) while REFUSING to explain WHY Jews CHOSE to Live in Poland for ONE THOUSAND YEARS if Poland was as anti-semitic as their SELECTED anti-Polish articles suggest.

Of course these same Jews willfully IGNORE the bad behavior of their fellow Jews in Poland and Eastern Europe. As in the fact that about 40% of the Communist butchers of Poles and East Europeans were Jewish.

Like Stalins Jews:

Stalin’s Jews

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

This is just the tip of the iceberg of the horrible things Jews did to Poles and East Europeans.

But the Jews who come on this forum read the Anti-Polish New York Times and Anti-Polish Washington Post and think these racist Anti-Polish Rags are the gospel on Jews and Poles.

The vicious Washington Post Anti-Polish Bigot Richard Cohen just wrote a major anti-Polish hate piece on Poland using anti-Polish hate propaganda of the Goebbels of Anti-Polish propaganda, Mr. Poland-Hater himself, "Jan Gross".

Maybe its time to post more links on the horrible things Communist Jews did to Poles and other East Europeans and have these same Jewish critics of Poles explain the actions of these thug Communist Jews?

Maybe these Jewish critics of East Europeans should ask the Russians who started Communism in Russia.

Hint: According to Russian nationalists, it wasn't the Russians. LOL

nott Threads: 4
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  ♂   Jun 14, 2010, 11:46pm  #

Magdalena:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Feldhendler

Answers most of MY questions.


try English, German, and Hebrew versions. You'll have more questions to ask.

MareGaea Threads: 32
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  ♂   Edited by: MareGaea  Jun 14, 2010, 11:50pm  #

Magdalena:
Answers most of MY questions.


That's the point: the Polish, English, German, French and the other versions have all a different explanation.

MediaWatch:
What about all the Jewish hate for Poles in this forum?


Will you give me a freaking break? There is more anti Jewish hate here than anti Polish hate on this forum. Anti Jewish thingies on this forum are much and much bigger that the so called "anti Polish" thingies here. And even when the Poles are proved wrong, it's still anti Polish in your view anyway.

>^..^<

M-G (tomorrow)

nott Threads: 4
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  ♂   Jun 15, 2010, 12:07am  #

MareGaea:
That's the point: the Polish, English, German, French and the other versions have all a different explanation.


French? Must be Google.NL edition. Except the three mentioned above I have only one [][][] version. Doesn't look like French. I want French.

Magdalena Threads: 3
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  ♀   Jun 15, 2010, 01:07am  #

nott:
try English, German, and Hebrew versions. You'll have more questions to ask.


I read the English, and it seems the authors of the entry should have asked themselves a few questions, not me.
Sorry to say I do not know enough German to read a Wiki entry, and have no Hebrew at all. Nevertheless, from what has been said in this thread and from what I have found on the net, the Polish version of events presented on Wiki seems to be the most objective.




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Leon Feldhendler: A hero murdered?

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