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Poles as Iroquois of Europe

Ironside Threads: 56
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Joined: Feb 26, 2009
  ♂ :-( Jun 14, 2010, 08:57pm  #

I think it was Bismark who compared Poles to Iroquois. I wonder what he had in mind.
Maybe it was a wishful thinking!
He couldn't knew about Lacrosse?!

vetala Threads: -
Posts: 497
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
  ♀ Jun 14, 2010, 09:09pm  #

I don't know what he thought about Iroquois but he once compared Poles to wolves that have to be shot whenever possible so what you said must have been an insult on his part.

Torq Threads: 54
Posts: 3,350
Joined: Apr 10, 2009
  ♂ Jun 14, 2010, 09:13pm  #

Yeah, the old man loved us. Oh, well - I hope those devils in hell take into consideration
his service to Germany and every second Thursday don't f**k him up the arse :)

Bratwurst Boy Threads: 8
Posts: 11,693
Joined: Apr 2, 2007
  ♂ Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jun 14, 2010, 09:57pm  #

You shouldn't all believe what they tell you...

I'm fairly sure Bismarck had NOT Serbia on his lips the moment he died! ;)
Also we found out in this other thread that polish princess Wanda was all made up and did
not drown because of a Teuton.

There is alot of fairytales in polish history I fear ;)

Sokrates Threads: 12
Posts: 4,353
Joined: Jan 19, 2009
  ♂ Jun 14, 2010, 10:00pm  #

Bratwurst Boy:
I'm fairly sure Bismarck had NOT Serbia on his lips the moment he died! ;)

Amusingly enough he probably did, why? We'll never know.

Just like Prussian kings before him the guy had a pathological discipline streak, a nation where 2 people have 20 opinions and it still actually works was something a guy with his mental profile could not understand or cope with.

king polkakamon Threads: -
Posts: 770
Joined: Dec 30, 2009
  ♂ Edited by: king polkakamon  Jun 14, 2010, 10:02pm  #

Two obvious disadvantages perplexed Bismarck.The Polish question and the Austrian future in the Balkans.

http://books.google.gr/books?id=mEMniLRw8nYC&pg=PA349&lpg=PA349&dq=bis marck+about+polish&source=bl&ots=jSI_coKhQp&sig=47_ez67sdgh62XVIgDC9DK A13RA&hl=el&ei=8IkWTIDIJOOV4gb67ZTHDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&re snum=3&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=bismarck%20about%20polish&f=false

Bratwurst Boy Threads: 8
Posts: 11,693
Joined: Apr 2, 2007
  ♂ Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jun 14, 2010, 10:03pm  #

Sokrates:
Amusingly enough he probably did, why? We'll never know.


Where you there?
The man was dying FFS, had his family around him....how big is the chance that he would
especially one of the Balkan mess mention during his last breath.

Would you sigh "Germany" when you die??? ;)

Sokrates:
Just like Prussian kings before him the guy had a pathological discipline streak,


Nothing pathological about discipline....only upringing and education!

Sokrates:
a nation where 2 people have 20 opinions and it still actually works was something a guy with his mental profile could not understand or cope with.


I doubt they lost much sleep over Poland! ;)
It was always more about France or Russia...

PS: Bismarck’s Speech to the Prussian House of Deputies on the ―Polish Question‖ (January 28, 1886)

...
The belief that we could become accustomed to the Poles, and the desire to test the difficulties of the situation, gained credibility from the fact that in Silesia we lived with a million Polish-speaking subjects without any difficulty. [Also contributing to this belief was] the memory of the era before 1806 during which time the nationalistic passions were not so clearly in evidence. There was a socially bearable relationship between Germans and Poles, a complex social intercourse with Poles here in Berlin and in society.

This kind of naive trustfulness was suddenly disturbed by the Warsaw rising of 1830 and the emergence of a Polish question, in a European sense, in which other nations were involved and which has never since then wholly disappeared.
...

He didn't hate Poles but wanted to keep Prussia on order as every nationstate with strong minorities did...and does.
Poland did the same.

Ironside Threads: 56
Posts: 8,169
Joined: Feb 26, 2009
  ♂ :-( Jun 14, 2010, 10:25pm  #

Not necessary Bismark, it could be one of those freakish Prussian leaders.

king polkakamon Threads: -
Posts: 770
Joined: Dec 30, 2009
  ♂ Jun 14, 2010, 10:28pm  #

Ironside:
Not necessary Bismark, it could be one of those freakish Prussian leaders.


I am curious how polish books in school describe Friedriech der Groesse or Bismarck.(I guess some illustrations with horns and tails?)

Seanus Threads: 19
Posts: 28,102
Joined: Dec 25, 2007
  ♂ Jun 14, 2010, 10:46pm  #

In the words of a wise redneck, 'huh?' Iroquois??

king polkakamon Threads: -
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Joined: Dec 30, 2009
  ♂ Jun 14, 2010, 10:48pm  #

I was always amazed how good the Germans knew the Poles and the Czechs.They had really deepened into these two nations.We are lucky Russians were always far and an enigma.

vetala Threads: -
Posts: 497
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
  ♀ Edited by: vetala  Jun 14, 2010, 10:58pm  #

king polkakamon:
I am curious how polish books in school describe Friedriech der Groesse or Bismarck.

Frederick II is only mentioned as one of the 2 who partitioned Poland. No demonization. As for Bismarck, his service to Germany is described but so is Kulturkampf and his anti-Polish policies which really did happen, unlike what some here would like to believe.

Bratwurst Boy Threads: 8
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Joined: Apr 2, 2007
  ♂ Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jun 14, 2010, 11:00pm  #

vetala:
but so is Kulturkampf and his anti-Polish


The Kulturkampf wasn't anti-polish! But to modernize Prussia and make it a seculare nation state...as all modern countries are today, where state and church are separated!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulturkampf

The German term About this sound Kulturkampf (help·info) (literally, "culture struggle") refers to German policies in relation to secularity and the influence of the Roman Catholic Church, enacted from 1871 to 1878 by the Chancellor of the German Empire, Otto von Bismarck.

It wasn't easy but he did it and Prussia profited from it. He nearly got killed for it...by a German, not a Pole btw.

On July 13, 1874 in the town of Bad Kissingen Eduard Kullmann attempted to assassinate Bismarck with a pistol, but only hit his hand. Kullmann cited church laws as the reason why he had to shoot Bismarck.

I know I'm repeating myself here but I really wonder what is taught about Prussia, Bismarck and other german history in polish schools...maybe they really have horns and tails in their schoolbooks! ;)

Ironside Threads: 56
Posts: 8,169
Joined: Feb 26, 2009
  ♂ :-( Jun 14, 2010, 11:20pm  #

Bratwurst Boy:
The Kulturkampf wasn't anti-polish! But to modernize Prussia and make it a seculare nation state...as all modern countries are today, where state and church are separated!

Prussian state it was a freakish state its a pity that Germanic states were consolidated by this ugly monstrous modern state - totalitarian state

Torq Threads: 54
Posts: 3,350
Joined: Apr 10, 2009
  ♂ Edited by: Torq  Jun 14, 2010, 11:21pm  #

Ironside:
its a pity that Germanic states were consolidated by this ugly monstrous modern state - totalitarian state


Well, they needed training before consolidating most European states into the EU ;)

Bratwurst Boy Threads: 8
Posts: 11,693
Joined: Apr 2, 2007
  ♂ Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jun 14, 2010, 11:33pm  #

Ironside:
Prussian state it was a freakish state its a pity that Germanic states were consolidated by this ugly monstrous modern state - totalitarian state


Another example of polish school teachings??? ;)

For a more correct insight I would advise this book here:
http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Kingdom-Downfall-Prussia-1600-1947/dp/06740 31962/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276551339&sr=8-1

By 1947, Prussia was deemed an intolerable threat to the safety of Europe; what is often forgotten, Clark argues, is that it had also been an exemplar of the European humanistic tradition, boasting a formidable government administration, an incorruptible civil service, and religious tolerance.
Clark demonstrates how a state deemed the bane of twentieth-century Europe has played an incalculable role in Western civilization's fortunes. Iron Kingdom is a definitive, gripping account of Prussia's fascinating, influential, and critical role in modern times.

...
This book is everything its subject is supposed not to be: it's sparkling, light-footed and intellectually supple at every turn. Even more refreshingly, it narrates the story of a Prussia that was itself the source of much that was socially and intellectually progressive. The history of Prussia is a history of the West: we are all Prussians one way or another. ...

...
Iron Kingdom, Christopher Clark's stately, authoritative history of Prussia from its humble beginnings to its ignominious end, presents a much more complicated and compelling picture of the German state, which is too often reduced to a caricature of spiked helmets and polished boots.
Prussia and its army were inseparable, but Prussia was also renowned for its efficient, incorruptible civil service; its innovative system of social services; its religious tolerance; and its unrivaled education system, a model for the rest of Germany and the world. ...

Yup! :)

...
From the military and agricultural innovations of Frederick the Great to nineteenth-century high academic politics to Bismarck's social-security system, this magisterial and remarkably well-written history of Prussia traces back to the eighteenth century the region's surprisingly tolerant and intellectually rich culture. Clark, a Cambridge historian, suggests that the world is poorer for Prussia's absence.

"Freakish" huh? Your education seems to have been freakish...

southern Threads: 97
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Joined: May 17, 2007
  ♂ Edited by: southern  Jun 14, 2010, 11:56pm  #

German unification under Prussia produced some consequences which would have been avoided maybe if it were united under Bayern or better Hamburg and north Germany.But Prussia was more imperial and agricultural,militaristic nationalistic.

Bratwurst Boy Threads: 8
Posts: 11,693
Joined: Apr 2, 2007
  ♂ Jun 14, 2010, 11:59pm  #

Well, Bavaria was to poor and broke and the North German Confederation was the forerunner of unified Germany and led by Prussia too.

hague1cmaeron Threads: 22
Posts: 1,783
Joined: Mar 30, 2010
  ♂ Jun 15, 2010, 02:42am  #

Ironside:
I think it was Bismark who compared Poles to Iroquois. I wonder what he had in mind.
Maybe it was a wishful thinking!
He couldn't knew about Lacrosse?!

No it was Frederick

plk123 Threads: 21
Posts: 5,804
Joined: Aug 29, 2007
  ♂ Jun 15, 2010, 03:01am  #

Ironside:
I think it was Bismark who compared Poles to Iroquois. I wonder what he had in mind.

me too.. as i just don't see the connection whatsoever. hmmm

Chicago Pollock Threads: 10
Posts: 608
Joined: Apr 10, 2010
  ♂ Jun 15, 2010, 03:31am  #

The Iroquois developed a confederation of six tribes that were very powerful. The confederation was known for it's democratic institutions. The Iroquois were noted as fierce warriors but cannibalistic The would eat the body parts of the defeated Indian warriors. They'd make a feast out of it. I don't quite understand what Bismarck meant when comparing the Polish to the Iroquois.

hague1cmaeron Threads: 22
Posts: 1,783
Joined: Mar 30, 2010
  ♂ Edited by: hague1cmaeron  Jun 15, 2010, 08:56am  #

Chicago Pollock:
The Iroquois were noted as fierce warriors but cannibalistic The would eat the body parts of the defeated Indian warriors. They'd make a feast out of it. I don't quite understand what Bismarck meant when comparing the Polish to the Iroquois.


Given the cannibalistic tendencies of the Prussian sate I think the comparison works better in reverse:)

Bratwurst Boy Threads: 8
Posts: 11,693
Joined: Apr 2, 2007
  ♂ Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jun 15, 2010, 02:49pm  #

Chicago Pollock:
I don't quite understand what Bismarck meant when comparing the Polish to the Iroquois.


Show me where he did please...I can't find something!

hague1cmaeron:
Given the cannibalistic tendencies of the Prussian sate I think the comparison works better in reverse:)


Sure, calling the most advanced, most modern state in Europe "cannibalistic" is a thing a Pole would do! :)

Ironside Threads: 56
Posts: 8,169
Joined: Feb 26, 2009
  ♂ :-( Jun 15, 2010, 10:54pm  #

Ironside:
Not necessary Bismark, it could be one of those freakish Prussian leaders.

hague1cmaeron:
No it was Frederick

I'm last to argue about it!


Bratwurst Boy:
Prussia and its army were inseparable, but Prussia was also renowned for its efficient, incorruptible civil service; its innovative system of social services; its religious tolerance; and its unrivaled education system, a model for the rest of Germany and the world. ...

Yeah modern crap - totalitarian state - in XIX century but a first step, could be seen as advanced.
Bratwurst Boy:
lark, a Cambridge historian, suggests that the world is poorer for Prussia's absence.

Sure, nothing new there Britain supported Prussian state from the very being of an upstart. Anyway one lark make no difference!
Bratwurst Boy:
"Freakish" huh? Your education seems to have been freakish...

What it has to do with education? Its my a very own conclusion.......
tell me that state school is good and progressive and I will call you freakish mass production of an misconception as was Prussian state !

Bratwurst Boy Threads: 8
Posts: 11,693
Joined: Apr 2, 2007
  ♂ Jun 15, 2010, 10:58pm  #

Ironside:
tell me that state school is good and progressive and I will call you freakish mass production of an misconception


True too...

Ironside Threads: 56
Posts: 8,169
Joined: Feb 26, 2009
  ♂ :-( Jun 16, 2010, 12:11am  #

Chicago Pollock:
I don't quite understand what Bismarck meant when comparing the Polish to the Iroquois.

destined to extinct ?
How about that one ?

Crow Threads: 214
Posts: 6,412
Joined: Feb 14, 2007
  ♂ Jun 16, 2010, 12:52am  #

Poles as Iroquois of Europe

that i telling to you

Ironside Threads: 56
Posts: 8,169
Joined: Feb 26, 2009
  ♂ :-( Jun 16, 2010, 01:05am  #

Crow:
that i telling to you

telling what?

I-S (speak clearly or don't speak at all)

Crow Threads: 214
Posts: 6,412
Joined: Feb 14, 2007
  ♂ Jun 16, 2010, 04:20am  #

Ironside:
telling what?

that`s how so called west see Poland. As kind of Iroquois

in EU, Poles may face destine of Lusatian Serbs. May become touristic attraction

plk123 Threads: 21
Posts: 5,804
Joined: Aug 29, 2007
  ♂ Jun 16, 2010, 05:22am  #

Crow:

that`s how so called west see Poland. As kind of Iroquois

how are these related???



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