Polaron - Get Polish Citizenship / EU Passport now!Witamy, Guest  |  Members

The Unofficial Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives

Poland Information in English
Home / History /answers: 209 - page 5 of 7

Slavic vs Germanic thinking.... and the philosophical differences

Ironside Threads: 56
Posts: 8,168
Joined: Feb 26, 2009
  ♂  :-( Nov 30, 2013, 07:45pm  #

Ironside:
I'm sure that suitable substitute would arise if needed.



Wlodzimierz Threads: 5
Posts: 818
Joined: Jul 12, 2013
  ♂   Nov 30, 2013, 09:09pm  #

In essence, scholars of Germany, from Friedrich Meinecke through Gordon Craig, have basically agreed that the foundations of Germanic "thinking" were shaped primordially by the drive for territorial expansion, dating back to the days of the Teutonic Knights during the early Middle Ages! This eternal quest throughout history for a "Volksgemeinschaft", one of those almost untranslatable concepts in German meaning roughly "community of race and nationhood", shaped a good deal of German history right on through and culminating in Hitler's Third Reich!

Slavic history was shaped by different currents, whereby culture more than sheer territorial expansion, informed Slavic thinkers and writers. Poles such as Mickiewicz saw themselves as both proud Poles as well as historically Baltic ("Litwo, ojczyno moja.!") in nature. Russian philosophers saw a kind of Russian "melos" or cultural melancholy as informing the pessimistic "Russian soul".

Clichees perhaps, and yet much of history can be boiled down to general trends and developments.

R.U.R.     Nov 30, 2013, 09:31pm  #

Ironside
Ironside:
R.U.R.: What does this mean ? A warning ?
But thinking grows out of a civilization, and is predefined by it
There is no such a thing like Slavic and Germanic thinking. If anything that deep in the past there were the same tribal thinking.


But I have the same opinion, probably your are confusing me with someone else

Ironside Threads: 56
Posts: 8,168
Joined: Feb 26, 2009
  ♂  :-( Edited by: Ironside  Nov 30, 2013, 10:10pm  #

Wlodzimierz:
In essence, scholars of Germany, from Friedrich Meinecke through Gordon Craig, have basically agreed that the foundations of Germanic "thinking"

There is no Germanic thinking. As for expansion you can say that Prussian circumstances coupled with french Huguenots resulted in a new nation called German Empire in which aggressiveness and a spirit of conquest has between imprinted by the very example of Prussian success in destroying the Kingdom of Poland. Which has been afterwards methodically and scientifically squared by German Universities hence your scholars, servants of the state, reason over morality, typical for Byzantine philosophy.

R.U.R.     Nov 30, 2013, 10:12pm  #

Ironside:
Germany is a Byzantine civilization planted in the middle of Europe.

An acquaintance of mine from Latvia told me that Protestantism is much closer to christian orthodox
church then to Catholicism so it is true that at least partly Germany is a Byzantine civilization planted in the middle of Europe.

Palivec:
Western philosophy without the categorical imperative and Marxism,

Ancient Greek philosophy contains almost all valuable ideas.

Often heard and read that Marxism is Jewish way of thinking , not european, may be German thinking
too , I do not know, I'm not sure about it (WW II )

Don't you understand that the victory of fascist Germany meant the end of European civilization ?

The victory of fascist Germany meant German civilization , not even Germanic civilization , THAT'S WHY GERMANY NEEDED WESTERNIZATION AND REEUROPEANIZATION

Wlodzimierz Threads: 5
Posts: 818
Joined: Jul 12, 2013
  ♂   Dec 1, 2013, 09:31pm  #

Yes and no to your riposte, Ironside et al.

Indeed, Prussia did seek tremendous expansion throughout the 18th and on into the mid-19th century prior to the 1871 Unification of the German Empire under Bismarck. The Hugenots however claimed practically 'asylum' status as a persecuted minority in staunchly Catholic France, thus Prussia merely offered them their succor as a supposed "free" state (although of course, she wasn't "free" at all)!

Read Hans Kohn's "The Germans" published (in English, by the way) in 1960. He gives a wonderfully comprehensive account of the so-called shibboteth surrounding "Germanic" thinking, providing a layman's groundwork for the trends and currents which eventually lead to the rise of totalitarianism to its Teutonic apotheosis in the figure of the Fuehrer. Plessner's "Nationhood Deferred: On the Political Gullibility of the Bourgeoise Intellect" (1933?? and reprinted in 1959) offers a more religious explanation for the foundations of Nazism as due to the slow, yet ineluctable decline of Christian brotherly acceptance of the equality of man as subjugated by the insurmountable control foisted upon the Church by the petty princes, fiefdoms, duchies and kingdoms within the Holy Roman Empire, making the healthy growth of enlightened democracy as practiced in England. France or the fledlging United States of America, nearly impossible.

R.U.R     Dec 1, 2013, 10:41pm  #

Palivec:
what exactly did Poland contribute to the Western civilization if these people don't count? Was Poland ever a civilized culture or just a peasants society?


Still feel infinite superiority ?

Try to use search engine and you'll find something like this:

The Polish School of Mathematics refers to the mathematics community that flourished in Poland in the 20th century, particularly during the Interbellum

Or something like this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_School_of_Mathematics

Over the centuries, Polish mathematicians have influenced the course of history. Copernicus used mathematics to buttress his revolutionary heliocentric theory. Four hundred years later, Marian Rejewski - subsequently assisted by fellow mathematician-cryptologists Jerzy Rˇ┐ycki and Henryk Zygalski - in December 1932 first broke the German Enigma machine cipher, thus laying the foundations for British World War II reading of Enigma ciphers ("Ultra"). After the war, Stanis│aw Ulam showed Edward Teller how to construct a practicable hydrogen bomb

Ironside Threads: 56
Posts: 8,168
Joined: Feb 26, 2009
  ♂  :-( Dec 2, 2013, 01:00am  #

TheOther:
Hmmm, and I always thought Kopernikus was German... ;)

In that case Merkel is Polish :(
Wlodzimierz:
The Hugenots however claimed practically 'asylum' status as a persecuted minority in staunchly Catholic France, thus Prussia merely offered them their succor as a supposed "free" state (although of course, she wasn't "free" at all)!

They influenced Prussian elites big time.

TheOther Threads: 7
Posts: 2,828
Joined: Jul 13, 2009
  ♂   Dec 2, 2013, 01:23am  #

Ironside:
In that case Merkel is Polish :(


Deal :)

PlasticPole Threads: 10
Posts: 4,921
Joined: May 28, 2009
  ♀   Dec 2, 2013, 06:32am  #

Wlodzimierz:

In essence, scholars of Germany, from Friedrich Meinecke through Gordon Craig, have basically agreed that the foundations of Germanic "thinking" were shaped primordially by the drive for territorial expansion, dating back to the days of the Teutonic Knights during the early Middle Ages! This eternal quest throughout history for a "Volksgemeinschaft", one of those almost untranslatable concepts in German meaning roughly "community of race and nationhood", shaped a good deal of German history right on through and culminating in Hitler's Third Reich!

When you think about it, Germans have never really done a great job exanding, not like the British, Spanish or French. When they did try it, it didn't work out. The one great accomplishment they have is exporting. Good idea to stick with that.

R.U.R     Dec 2, 2013, 12:10pm  #

TheOther:
Hmmm, and I always thought Kopernikus was German... ;)

Hmmm, the rest of Europe and the whole world always thought Copernicus was Polish. Hehehehe....

You , Germans, certainly can appropriate 50% German Copernicus but then in this case our dear German friends, please, forget for good about the so called German school of mathematics and physics , forget forever about some important names in German literature, music etc. from now on it'll be JEWISH
German culture will be of course more German but it will at the same time be much more primitive. Let's talk about Jewish school of mathematics in Gettingen, Germany and so on.
As usual our dear Germans do not understand simple things that the rest of Europe
knows so well but I'll explain : It is education, society and country that counts, has importance and value in such cases, not blood. In Copernicus case, it is Jagiellonian University , Cracow, Poland.
And this means that if Copernicus were 100000% German , he would be 100% Polish for the
The whole world, Germany excepted of course.
But our Bright German boys want as usual to have all .... To have German school of mathematics and German Copernicus and in addition probably entire Poland Germanized ...............


TheOther, thanks for the link

Palivec Threads: -
Posts: 461
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
  ♂   Dec 2, 2013, 12:53pm  #

R.U.R:
Still feel infinite superiority ?


Huh? I'm not German. And isn't this thread about feeling superior to Germans???

TheOther Threads: 7
Posts: 2,828
Joined: Jul 13, 2009
  ♂   Dec 2, 2013, 05:30pm  #

R.U.R:
the rest of Europe and the whole world always thought Copernicus was Polish.

Totally understandable given the fact that his mother's name was Barbara Watzenrode ...

R.U.R:
You , Germans,

Me, Australian... :)

Wlodzimierz Threads: 5
Posts: 818
Joined: Jul 12, 2013
  ♂   Edited by: Wlodzimierz  Dec 2, 2013, 10:32pm  #

Ironside, whilst it is true that the German Empire settled only sparingly, "colonizing" places such as Tanganyika (formerly German East Africa), Cameroon (Kamerun) and parts of the Central Congo, namely by Carl Peters the explorer, compared with France, Britain, Portugal or Spain, don't forget either that had Hitler won the war, practically ALL of Europe, Russia, perhaps the US herself, would have become enslaved through one of the most massive colonization efforts the world has ever seen since the mighty Genghis Khan himself several thousand years prior:-)

A further major difference between so-called Slavic vs. Germanic thinking revolves around this peculiarly German idea of "Weltfroemmigkeit", something nearly impossible to translate accurately, but approximating "secular piety", the notion that the external world holds sway over the spiritual, that obedience to the higher law supersedes even the belief in God, and that finally disobeying this supreme will represents an even greater crime than murder, the latter idea being extracted from Kant's Critique!! It could be argued that Kant's philosophy would've been non-existent without the foundation laid by this turning away from a monotheistic God as the cornerstone of civilized society.

This philosophical tradition of secular piety has no equivalent in any Slavic culture with which I'm even partly familiar.

Wlodzimierz Threads: 5
Posts: 818
Joined: Jul 12, 2013
  ♂   Dec 2, 2013, 11:47pm  #

Apologies there, Ironside! My post was meant for PlasticPole.
:-)))

R.U.R     Dec 3, 2013, 05:38pm  #

TheOther:
R.U.R: the rest of Europe and the whole world always thought Copernicus was Polish.Totally understandable given the fact that his mother's name was Barbara Watzenrode ...


'.......world always thought Copernicus was Polish Scientist.
It follows from the context of my message


R.U.R.:
R.U.R: You , Germans,


TheOther:
R
Me, Australian... :)

'
Well, actually I was taking about Gemans who are mentioned here

GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS
The link was given by you.
polishforums.com/news-politics-4/germans-want-germaniz e-kopernik-copernicus-outrage-28721/
Don't you remember ?


They enjoy cutting and deleting posts here....

Wlodzimierz Threads: 5
Posts: 818
Joined: Jul 12, 2013
  ♂   Dec 3, 2013, 11:35pm  #

Koperniku is justifiedly claimed by BOTH countries as one of their own, much as Chopin/Szopen is claimed as French by France because of his father's birth, but Polish by Poland because his mother was Polish and he was born in Poland, not France. When KopernikuÂ/Kopernigk was born, the city of Thorn (Toru˝) was part of the territory still belonging to the German Empire:-)

TheOther Threads: 7
Posts: 2,828
Joined: Jul 13, 2009
  ♂   Dec 4, 2013, 02:21am  #

R.U.R:
The link was given by you.

Yes, and only to show you that you were flogging a dead horse.

R.U.R     Dec 4, 2013, 05:48pm  #

Wlodzimierz:
impossible to translate accurately, but approximating "secular piety"



Secular - not religious.
Piety - deep respect for Good.

I'm struck dumb with the complexity of German culture......
Even do not know what to say.......
Fantastic.........deep respect for German culture ........ and I'm serious about it

R.U.R     Dec 4, 2013, 06:09pm  #

TheOther:
Yes, and only to show you that you were flogging a dead horse.

I understand that the link is a very important source of information for you
So it's true that we are wasting our time

R.U.R     Dec 4, 2013, 06:27pm  #

Wlodzimierz:
much as Chopin/Szopen is claimed as French by France because of his father's birth, but Polish by Poland


But see Chopin' s music is 100% polish. He wrote polonaises and his music is influenced by polish folk music , not French. It is ridiculous too

Ironside Threads: 56
Posts: 8,168
Joined: Feb 26, 2009
  ♂  :-( Dec 4, 2013, 06:40pm  #

Wlodzimierz:
When KopernikuÂ/Kopernigk was born, the city of Thorn (Toru˝) was part of the territory still belonging to the German Empire:-)

Not factual. The German Empire were created in 1872. Anyway that is not issue as that subject has been long decided by the people knowledgeable in the field that Kopernik has been willing and loyal subject of the Polish Kingdom. The only issues that are being debatable here is his "blood" but that different.

R.U.R     Dec 4, 2013, 06:59pm  #

Wlodzimierz:
Chopin/Szopen is claimed as French



I have never heard about French claims.
Please provide a link, if possible, I suspect manipulation and it is clear why you are doing this
Sorry but Typically German behaviour

TheOther Threads: 7
Posts: 2,828
Joined: Jul 13, 2009
  ♂   Edited by: TheOther  Dec 4, 2013, 08:29pm  #

Ironside:
that subject has been long decided by the people knowledgeable in the field

Most folks would agree that both Poland and Germany can "claim" him, but we all know of course that people of a certain political affiliation don't like that idea...

R.U.R:
Sorry but Typically German behaviour

I don't think Wlodzimierz is German.

R.U.R:
I suspect manipulation

Question is, by whom? But of course, only people of a certain political affiliation suspect manipulation...

http://www.consulfrance-atlanta.org/spip.php?article2433
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/7244031/C hopin-belongs-to-us-says-Poland.html
http://www.ljms.org/Education-and-Community/Learn-More/Chopin-and -Polish-Nationalism.html

Ironside Threads: 56
Posts: 8,168
Joined: Feb 26, 2009
  ♂  :-( Edited by: Ironside  Dec 4, 2013, 08:58pm  #

TheOther:
Most folks would agree that both Poland and Germany can "claim" him,

Could you claim the moon? Sure you could. Doesn't it make a ounce of sense? It doesn't.
TheOther:
but we all know of course that people of a certain political affiliation don't like that idea...

To be factual it was the German Nazis who were claiming or ousting certain people even historical figures. More often then not that was based on blood. One could be ten times removed Maritain and still because they could find an ounce of German or what they though was German blood they claimed him.
So as far as history goes we cannot establish whether or not koperinki was an ethnic German or whatever passed for that at the time the one thing is certain that he was a loyal subject of the Polish Kingdom which he proved on the battlefield and has been educated together with elite of that Kingdom in Cracow University.
I wonder why we even debate the obvious? Let talk about Australia the land many dedicated German supporters of Hitler emigrated after the war.
About Chopin let make it simple for you. If he wouldn't consider himself a Pole he would stay in the Russian Empire rather than travel to Paris.

TheOther Threads: 7
Posts: 2,828
Joined: Jul 13, 2009
  ♂   Dec 4, 2013, 09:25pm  #

Ironside:
About Chopin let make it simple for you.


From the last link I posted (or use Google if you want):

Quote:
" I have saved for my conclusion the one comment from Chopin himself that appears to speak to the composer's intention to raise the flag of Polish nationalism through his music. "The Official Bulletin declared that the Poles should be as proud of me as the Germans are of Mozart-obvious nonsense."


My whole point is that nobody except for a handful of people really care whether Chopin was French or Polish, or whether Copernicus was Polish or German. You get Chopin's remark regarding the Germans and Mozart, right?

Ironside Threads: 56
Posts: 8,168
Joined: Feb 26, 2009
  ♂  :-( Edited by: Ironside  Dec 4, 2013, 09:32pm  #

TheOther:
My whole point is that nobody except for a handful of people really care whether Chopin was French or Polish, or whether Copernicus was Polish or German.

seems that those people are congregating on PF. when comes to Koperink I don't even understand why there are any doubt the case is clear.
Sure, I understand why Chopin is more controversial but still. There are plenty of expert, who know the subject. i don't really care as long as somebody doesn't talk rubbish.

TheOther Threads: 7
Posts: 2,828
Joined: Jul 13, 2009
  ♂   Dec 4, 2013, 09:40pm  #

Ironside:
when comes to Koperink I don't even understand why there are any doubt the case is clear.

32 pages of a stupid thread called "GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)!!! OUTRAGE!" tell a different story.

R.U.R     Dec 4, 2013, 09:52pm  #

R.U.R.:
Sorry but Typically German behaviour

TheOther:
I don't think Wlodzimierz is German.


IT IS CLEAR ENOUGH THAT HE ( Wlodzimierz ) SUPPORTS GERMAN SIDE, SO DO NOT
PAY ATTENTION TO HIS NAME , PLEASE
I DO NOT THINK THAT ALL GERMANS ARE LIARS BUT AFTER ALL Myunkhgauzen
IS GERMAN AND DO NOT FORGET ABOUT G÷bbels AND PLUS MY OWN EXPERIENCE
SO I KNOW WHAT I 'M TALKING ABOUT.

IT IS EVEN POSSIBLE TO EXPLAIN THIS PHENOMENON (LIE) FROM GERMAN HISTORY


TheOther:
32 pages of a stupid thread called "GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)!!! OUTRAGE!" tell a different stor


You are probably monolingual




Home / History / Unanswered [this forum]

Slavic vs Germanic thinking.... and the philosophical differences

  To post as guest, enter a temporary and unique username (without password) or login and post as a member.