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Tuchola - roots of Katyn?

Plato Threads: -
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Joined: Dec 18, 2010
  ♂   Dec 18, 2010, 09:07pm  #91

ShawnH:

20,000 / 80,000 = 25% Death by disease / attrition while the balance seemed to live, probably fed to some degree. Not bad for a few years in captivity....

spanish flu?


Sokrates Threads: 11
Posts: 4,099
Joined: Jan 19, 2009
  ♂   Dec 18, 2010, 09:21pm  #92

Plato:
spanish flu?

More due to the fact that hygiene and feeding conditions in the Red Army were atrocious, many of the Russians cought by the Poles were already hungry and ill.

Poles provided meals of approximately 2000 calories per man per day which is adequate but the state that the russian soldiers were in meant that many of them would die, especially since most polish doctors were at the front treating polish troops.

In short russian claims that Russians were killed/starved/mistreated are a fat lie meant to counterweigh the many russian crimes on the Poles during WW2 Katyń being the most famous of them.

mytnica Threads: -
Posts: 8
Joined: Dec 15, 2010
  ♂   Dec 24, 2010, 07:45am  #93

Tuchola was not the root of Katyn.
In Sept/Oct.1920, my grandfather served in a small military detail,that handled the burial of 2,000-3,000 Polish P.O.W.'s who were tortured,then brutally murdered by the Bolsheviks.
The P.O.W's were left to rot,in a forest clearing,near a railway siding.
The Bolsheviks left behind a banner,declaring that some day, they would return for "the rest of them!".
The Bolsheviks committed this war crime,while they winning the 1919-1920 war against Poland.
Through out my Grandfather's Polish Military service,his commanding officers offered many times to send him to Officers school.
My Grandfather turned down these requests,and remained a NCO Lance Corporal. He always remembered what the Bolsheviks did in 1919-1920.
Katyn in the Spring of 1940,was only the logical conclusion of Bolshevik/Communist idealogy of class warfare.
Tuchola,was unfortunately the result of many factors,hunger,disease,lack of sanitation,lack of housing facilities.
A tragic event.
But,Poland was the Eastern Front during W.W.I,the country was stripped bare of almost everything by Russia,and the Central Powers.
During,1918-1920 2-3 milllion Polish citizens were on the brink of famine. Only thing that saved these people was Hubert Hoover's war relief efforts.
Equating Tuchola,with Katyn is intellectually,morally, incorrect.

Borrka Threads: 47
Posts: 715
Joined: Apr 25, 2008
  ♂   Edited by: Borrka  Dec 24, 2010, 01:29pm  #94

I can hardly imagine better documentation than Isaac Babel's novel "Red Cavalry".
Babel, during the Polish-Bolshevik conflict an active war correspondent (and Czeka member) gave a perfect description of mass killings of Polish POWs.
His novel was published in millions - nobody expected defeat of Bolsheviks.

Sokrates Threads: 11
Posts: 4,099
Joined: Jan 19, 2009
  ♂   Dec 25, 2010, 01:57am  #95

Borrka:
I can hardly imagine better documentation than Isaac Babel's novel "Red Cavalry".

To be specific, he was an officer in the Konarmia of Semion Budionny, i have both his novel and his memoirs here at home.

Soviet mounted armies were unbelievably barbaric towards Poles, Ukrainians and Jews alike.

mytnica Threads: -
Posts: 8
Joined: Dec 15, 2010
  ♂   Dec 26, 2010, 07:07pm  #96

Thanks Borrka,Sokrates for your replies!
I don't have Issac Babel's books, Red Cavalry,and Memiors.
But,I will have to find them. I think I have, almost all the English language books on the Polish-Bolshevik War of 1919-1920?
The Soviet Mounted Armies were also cruel to the Germans,Czech villages in Wolyn. I am not sure how the Belorussians were treated? I bet their experiences were similiar in 1919-1920?
I noticed on this discussion thread, there has been some dismissive comments directed at the accomplishments of the Ukrainian nation.
Which is unfortunate.
But Ukraine has been dominated and controlled by Mongols,Poles/Lithiunians,Moscovite/Russia, for the best part of the last 800 years. For a someone who was Ukrainian, to have accomplished anything of wide acclaim,they would have to do it within one of societies that dominated their country.
Since,Ukraine didn't exist as a independent country,politically,culturally,economically,militarily.

Sokrates Threads: 11
Posts: 4,099
Joined: Jan 19, 2009
  ♂   Dec 26, 2010, 08:36pm  #97

mytnica:
I am not sure how the Belorussians were treated

Belarussians were The most ferocious defenders of Poland outperforming even the most elite polish units, Grodno never fell, the belarussian division earned the nickname "Iron division" for a reason.

These people were treated as equals by Poles, given all freedoms of a polish citizens and since they didnt want to carve a country for themselves out of polish lands there was no conflict, consequently they were treated very harshly.
mytnica:
I noticed on this discussion thread, there has been some dismissive comments directed at the accomplishments of the Ukrainian nation.

Speaking of 1919-20 war, Ukraine failed to establish an army, the later sellout of parts of Ukraine by Poland is in part because polish elite became dissilusioned with Ukraine.

Ukrainians were seen as valuable allies before the war but their low performance and the indolence of the greater mass of their peoples convinced polish elite of the worthlessness of Ukraine as a potential ally, being useless Ukraine as an ideal got discarded.

mytnica Threads: -
Posts: 8
Joined: Dec 15, 2010
  ♂   Dec 28, 2010, 07:59pm  #98

Thanks for the reply Sokrates!
I thought Grodno fell to the Bolsheviks in July,1920? Never realized a Belarussian Division held off the Bolsheviks, till late Sept.1920?
From what I know of Pilsudski's federal plans,Belarussia was supposed to be a part of a 3 canton state,joined with Lithuania.
A Lithuanian dominated canton,Wilno canton dominated by Poles,and Minsk centred canton dominated by Belarussians.
Looking back on this idea,it seems visionary?
Too bad the Treaty of Riga ended such a idea. Especially,when the Polish Army controled Minsk, and almost all of Belarussia.
Why were the National Democrats so hostile,to the Belarussian aspirations? When Belarussia supported the Polish cause as strong as they did, in 1920?
As far as Ukraine was concerned.
Ukraine in spring of 1920, was mostly illiterate peasants and workers,except for Kiev,and other major towns/cities. In Kiev from 1918 till 1920,wasn't there something like 14-15 government changes?
And,wasn't the public mood in April/early June 1920 Ukraine, reported to be something similiar to, suspicious apathy towards Petlura government,and the Polish political/military presence?
The Petlura government governed, for about 6-8 weeks. The Ukrainian Army expanded from 15,000 in April 1920,to 35,000. A modest,but respectable accomplishment,considering the political/military situation. Suggests to me the indolence of the Ukrainian masses,would have been overcome, after a period of stable governance?
Didn't the Ukrainian Army fight alongside the Polish Army,during the dark days of the summer of 1920? Participating in the campaigns of in Wolyn,Galicia,and battles of Lvov,Komarow.
I haven't found any statistics for the Ukrainian Army's number of Killed,Wounded,POW's taken while fighting the Bolsheviks,from April 1920 to Mid Nov.1920?
Were the National Democratic Party elites,the only ones, who considered the Ukrainian ideal worthless?
Soviet policies directed towards the Ukraine from 1921 till 1931/32, suggest the ideal of Ukraine was considered valuable?

Sokrates Threads: 11
Posts: 4,099
Joined: Jan 19, 2009
  ♂   Edited by: Sokrates  Dec 29, 2010, 04:37am  #99

mytnica:

I thought Grodno fell to the Bolsheviks in July,1920? Never realized a Belarussian Division held off the Bolsheviks, till late Sept.1920?

I'm sorry i confused it with Lwów,you're right of course.
mytnica:
Looking back on this idea,it seems visionary?

Yes and no, the idea was smart but Lithuanians were not ready nor willing to participate for a variety of reasons.
mytnica:
And,wasn't the public mood in April/early June 1920 Ukraine, reported to be something similiar to, suspicious apathy towards Petlura government,and the Polish political/military presence?

Absolutely, Ukrainians didnt like the Poles much period, it didnt matter that they faced slavery/extermination at the hands of communist, those Poles who defended Ukraine were just not likeable enough.
mytnica:
oviet policies directed towards the Ukraine from 1921 till 1931/32, suggest the ideal of Ukraine was considered valuable?

Only as far as gaining the farmland, people were expendable.

mytnica Threads: -
Posts: 8
Joined: Dec 15, 2010
  ♂   Jan 2, 2011, 09:59pm  #100

Thanks for your reply Sokrates.
The Poles who defended the Ukraine in 1920,were not likeable enough? I just don't think the Ukrainian population, had enough time to get to like them?
I don't think Ukrainians realized, they were facing slavery/extermination, in the spring of 1920?
But,the Bolsheviks were better propagandists in 1920. They played on a undercurrent of mistrust of the Polish Landlord class,and the Jews.
The last thing the Poles wanted,or needed in 1920, was Ukrainian mistrust.
The only thing the Bolsheviks needed to win, was a atmosphere of Ukrainian apathy,mistrust.
As the old saying goes:The only thing evil needs to triumph,is good people to do nothing.

Sokrates Threads: 11
Posts: 4,099
Joined: Jan 19, 2009
  ♂   Jan 2, 2011, 10:11pm  #101

mytnica:
The Poles who defended the Ukraine in 1920,were not likeable enough? I just don't think the Ukrainian population, had enough time to get to like them?

Ukrainians wanted to carve out a country out of the polish soil, Poles showed them its polish way or the highway, there was not going to be any alliance.
mytnica:
I don't think Ukrainians realized, they were facing slavery/extermination, in the spring of 1920?

They did, they just lacked national level determination and organisation, they were an indolent mob.
mytnica:
The last thing the Poles wanted,or needed in 1920, was Ukrainian mistrust.

Ukrainians were a non-factor, they did not have the military or national coherence to matter, they were just a sideshow.

ConstantineK Threads: 32
Posts: 1,835
Joined: May 10, 2007
  ♂   Jan 5, 2011, 05:26pm  #102

mytnica:
Equating Tuchola,with Katyn is intellectually,morally, incorrect.


Cannot perceive this, why? The number of victims is more or less equal. Is that so? So why are you refusing to accept the comparison now?

Apart from these considerations, and here I mean your grandfather's tales, everything is just bogeyman tales told to beloved granddaughter...

Ironside Threads: 51
Posts: 7,677
Joined: Feb 26, 2009
  ♂  :-( Jan 5, 2011, 05:41pm  #103

ConstantineK:
The number of victims


What victims? There were no victims as such, maybe just a great Russian myth, they are always victims and if not they are not - they are regardless !

noreenb Threads: 7
Posts: 664
Joined: Apr 22, 2009
  ♀   Jan 5, 2011, 05:53pm  #104

ConstantineK
Oh, I like Poles!!! They are so..., so predictable. They eagerly pick their ulcers risking to suffocate everyone by their historical miasma, and lose interest immediately as soon as someone wants to make a hint that their own behavior cannot be considered as ideal

I think it's an interesting point. Can you go a bit further and explain what do You mean? I think nobody is ideal, but trying to become better in many issues is just a normal step on the way to natural development. Be predictable is boring. Nobody wants to be boring I guess.
So, do You want to say you can predict what Poles will do in any situations, because they are just... I'm not sure, too proud and easy to give in? (historical miasma, OMG what's that?!)
Cannot perceive this, why? The number of victims is more or less equal. Is that so?

There were victims of a crime and victims of the war...
I cannot believe you can't see it.

ConstantineK Threads: 32
Posts: 1,835
Joined: May 10, 2007
  ♂   Jan 5, 2011, 07:22pm  #105

Ironside:
There were no victims as such, maybe just a great Russian myth, they are always victims


Just a little correction. We all perfectly know that it is Poles who are always victims and they always try being victims even when their arms are blood-stained up to their elbows. God wills it, isn't it? And if you want to know it, Stalin did the right thing having shot all these Poles.

noreenb:
There were victims of a crime and victims of the war...


Really? Say this to those who died behind the barbwire in the Tuchola.

noreenb Threads: 7
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  ♀   Jan 5, 2011, 08:08pm  #106

Say this to those who died behind the barbwire in the Tuchola.

You should not name them victims. Because nobody killed them. They just died. They died because of plenty reasons, among many because they were ill and weak, but Poles had nothing to do with their death. This is a key difference, ConstantineK.
I really stand for people who lived during war. I admire all of them, I don't look at their nationalities. I feel sorry for all of them. I admire heroes of those times. I really am so thankful, that I live in rather safe times.

ConstantineK Threads: 32
Posts: 1,835
Joined: May 10, 2007
  ♂   Jan 5, 2011, 08:45pm  #107

noreenb:
ou should not name them victims. Because nobody killed them. They just died.


You forgot to mention that they died behind the barbwire. So, nothing prevents we of saying the same about those 20000+ Poles in Katyn. I feel so sorry about their fate, but they...they just died, nothing more.

Just remember one, just one simple thing....and I think that all Poles should understand this. Begin the repentance from yourselves.

noreenb Threads: 7
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Joined: Apr 22, 2009
  ♀   Edited by: noreenb  Jan 5, 2011, 09:44pm  #108

ConstantineK
You forgot to mention that they died behind the barbwire.

I'll think about a proper argument tomorrow, when ill be more intelligent than today.
Thanks so far for discussion.
:)

Ironside Threads: 51
Posts: 7,677
Joined: Feb 26, 2009
  ♂  :-( Jan 6, 2011, 08:04am  #109

ConstantineK:
Say this to those who died behind the barbwire in the Tuchola.


Yeah! Tell us - who are they, soviets citizens - any documents or prove that they really died there ?

ConstantineK:
We all perfectly know that it is Poles who are always victims and they always try being victims


Just a little correction! Stop projecting !You always try to blame victims of your deeds, they had it coming didn't they? Typical thuggish behavior - you can be really proud !
ConstantineK:
Stalin did the right thing having shot all these Poles.


Yeah ? I think Stalin should live a little longer, then he could finish off all those Russians!

noreenb Threads: 7
Posts: 664
Joined: Apr 22, 2009
  ♀   Jan 6, 2011, 06:55pm  #110

ConstantineK
Ok, so, somebody wanted to escape trying to go through a barbwire... Maybe he had a weak psychic and just wanted to die? Maybe it was his choice? If he thought: we can wait for a rescue, we will be trying to run away somehow, we will wait for somebody who will help us... there are plenty options instead of just going on a fence knowing a soldier will kill me. He will, because he has to do his job. Because in that case it was his duty. I have always a choice. When I become a prisoner of a war, I need to know that I can be killed without reasons. I don't see that Polish officers wanted very much to eliminate Russians there. They didn't. The matter looks different from Poles' point of view. Polish officers in Katyń were tortured and killed. Because they had no right to live due to Russians. Because they had to be eliminated. Because they were too wise. Well, nothing really smarter comes to my head now.
Just, please, don't try to say, that Tuchola was roots of Katyń, because it wasn't. Catchy title, isn't it? Very nice, author.

Sokrates Threads: 11
Posts: 4,099
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  ♂   Jan 6, 2011, 09:13pm  #111

ConstantineK:

You forgot to mention that they died behind the barbwire

Died.
ConstantineK:
So, nothing prevents we of saying the same about those 20000+ Poles in Katyn. I feel so sorry about their fate, but they...they just died, nothing more.

No they were murdered, Russian POVs were ill or wounded and died, not because they were malnourished or mistreated but because their woulds and illness overcame them despite adequate care provided by Poland.

On the other hand polish officers in Katyń were murdered by the Russians, thats the difference you trolling twat.

ConstantineK Threads: 32
Posts: 1,835
Joined: May 10, 2007
  ♂   Jan 6, 2011, 11:19pm  #112

Sokrates:
On the other hand polish officers in Katyń were murdered by the Russians, thats the difference you trolling twat


Ok, ok...So we can say, in this case at least, that the strive for life of those polish officers could not overcome adequate care provided by Russians.

noreenb:
Because they were too wise


Oh! I can imagine these IQ tests before shooting... Sort of examination I would say

noreenb:
Because they had to be eliminated


And here I would agree with you. Actually, they had to be removed, please let me use exactly this word. But this removal is of the same sort as in case of Tuchola. There are at least two reasons:

1) Shortage of food in case of war (so the shootings may be viewed simply as charity, though I do not insist)
2) All these officers might have been enlisted in German troops in case of war

So, I see here many similarities with Tuchola.

delphiandomine Threads: 51
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  ♂  :-( Jan 6, 2011, 11:24pm  #113

Sokrates:
Ukrainians were a non-factor, they did not have the military or national coherence to matter, they were just a sideshow.


And that same sideshow taught Poland a lesson in how to win wars.

noreenb Threads: 7
Posts: 664
Joined: Apr 22, 2009
  ♀   Edited by: noreenb  Jan 6, 2011, 11:48pm  #114

ConstantineK
Oh! I can imagine these IQ tests before shooting... Sort of examination I would say

Can You? So do this. As you probably heard in Katyń was murdered a flower of Polish intelligentsia. Thats why I wrote that they were too wise to live for some torturers.
ConstantineK
So, I see here many similarities with Tuchola.

Sigh.

Sokrates Threads: 11
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  ♂   Jan 6, 2011, 11:50pm  #115

delphiandomine:
And that same sideshow taught Poland a lesson in how to win wars.

When?! When did ukrainians win a war with Poland in the last 300 years? When did Ukraine win any war?

ConstantineK Threads: 32
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Joined: May 10, 2007
  ♂   Jan 7, 2011, 12:05am  #116

noreenb:
probably heard in Katyń was murdered a flower of Polish intelligentsia


Hmmm, rather strange flower, I would say, dressed in military.

hague1cmaeron Threads: 20
Posts: 1,769
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  ♂   Jan 7, 2011, 12:12am  #117

ConstantineK:
Oh! I can imagine these IQ tests before shooting... Sort of examination I would say


Not a good idea Costi, if applied to the Russians themselves they would have to eliminate the whole nation! And finally the last person left standing-Stalin, would have take a gun and put it to his temple and pull the trigger.

ConstantineK Threads: 32
Posts: 1,835
Joined: May 10, 2007
  ♂   Jan 7, 2011, 12:21am  #118

hague1cmaeron:
Not a good idea Costi, if applied to the Russians themselves they would have to eliminate the whole nation!


Ah, as for 'intelligentia' - the fewer the better, who cares? Just reflexing traitors

Sokrates Threads: 11
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  ♂   Jan 7, 2011, 01:38am  #119

I'm curious why none of the fuckwit mods reacted?

Wroclaw Threads: 63
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Joined: Apr 1, 2006
  ♂   Jan 7, 2011, 02:06am  #120

Sokrates:
I'm curious why none of the fuckwit mods reacted?


thanks for the glowing accolade.

'reacted' to what ?



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Tuchola - roots of Katyn?

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