PolishForums.com
POLAND . The Unofficial Guide
Unanswered | Archives
Poland for Expats and Tourists Witamy, Guest | PF Members | Gold Members

Polish Forums / History of Poland /

Am I misreading the plight of Poles during the Holocaust?


page 1 of 7:  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Next » posts: 192

masks98Threads: 32
Posts: 374
Joined: Apr 10, 08
 Pictures: 1
 Mar 1, 11, 21:21    #1
Israel, jews and anti-semitism came up at a dinner table discussion.

I stepped forward and said that Israel needs to calm down and said that after all "you don't see Poland armed to the teeth harassing its neighbors and constantly bringing up the holocaust to justify being an aggressive power." I was laughed at. Then I mentioned that the holocaust started in Poland, after the Nazis invaded it and built extermination camps and that the holocaust was not just about the jews, but about Lebensraum and the need to destroy Poland and the polish race which ultimately led to the killing 2-3 million non Jewish Poles, together with another 3 million polish jews. I was laughed at, told how the Jews were especially targeted, and that the Poles helped the nazis etc.. That the Poles that died were just casualties of war (as if that was any better or worse) etc. I mentioned that Germany and Russia have repeatedly sought to destroy the Polish nation and that poland was wiped off the map for roughly 100 years. "that was forever ago, germany and russia would never do such a thing today. " Although I would never say never, I partly agree, bu my point was that it's just as ridiculous for Israel to be paranoid about its existence as it would be for poland.

I read up about anti-polonism, and was surprised to see many statements from Polish figures sympathizing with the plight of the jews without making much mention of the fact that the Poles were fellow victims of the holocaust. When Polish organizations expressed outrage at hints in the western media that poland collaborated with the nazis, they often mention the righteous poles who helped the jews, but without really stressing the ultimate insult of calling a victim of the holocaust a participant in it!!

An article in the Economist defending the Poles' role in WWII had the following passage:

One could ask him why he thinks more Poles are honoured at Yad Vashem than gentiles from any other country. One could also point out that Poland was under foreign occupation during the Holocaust, and that Poles, unlike some other places occupied by the Nazis (Norway, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark or the British Channel Islands, for example), proved extremely unwilling to collaborate with Hitler’s war machine. One could note that the allies won the second world war thanks in part to Polish bravery and brilliance in smuggling out the Germans’ Enigma cipher machine.

One could also mention that while 3 million Jews were Killed in Poland, The Poles themselves were to suffer complete extermination, and that 2 to 3 million Poles subsequently perished. Isn't that a glaring omission??

Am I wrong?

gumishuThreads: 17
Posts: 3,943
Joined: Apr 6, 09
 Pictures: 1
 Mar 1, 11, 21:29    #2
you're mostly right - but what is the point of quarelling much about it - you will get tired of it if you indulge in it for any longer period
ShortHairThugThreads: -
Posts: 1,375
Joined: May 1, 09
 Mar 1, 11, 21:35    #3
masks98:
Am I wrong?

Does that really surprise you? Just look at the headlines in the western press, "Polish concentration camps" etc. Do you honestly think those editors know their history? or their readers.
enkiduThreads: 18
Posts: 983
Joined: Sep 23, 08
 Mar 1, 11, 22:08    #4
What is the death of 3mln Poles comparing to the death of 3mln Jews?

They are "goyim". The wikipedia tells you that this world means "non-Jew".
If you are a Jew, you know it really means "non-human". A cattle.
What is the suffering of the cattle comparing to the suffering of the human being?
Nothing.

You can't even call the death of the 3mln Poles the "Holocaust" without enraging some pious Jew, who would explain to you that this is an exclusively Jew word. Talking about the "Poles's Holocaust" is a blasphemy.
And better don't mention that Auschwitz is a place where the people of many different nationalities and ethnic background had died. Most people are not know about that.
Auschwitz has to be a symbol of Jew's suffering. And only that.

All you can hear is that the Poles are anti-Semitic blood thirsty bastards who are more than happy for Hitler's devil job. The fact that the majority of the people honoured by the Yad-Vashem institute for sawing the Jew's are Poles is conveniently omitted.
As well the fact that the example of a Jew sawing aPole is virtually unknown to the history.
As well the fact that western Jews (from Europe and the USA) were the ones who turn their back to their fellow Jews. There was a numerous ships full of European Jews turned back from Ellis Island straight to the Auschwitz gas-chambers.
And the starving, slaughtered Poles were the ones expected to sawing them. And some were saved.

No one wants to talk about this.

And no one talks about the Jewish guerilla fighters like the Bielski brothers, who killed numerous Poles in return for all this help. Like in the Naliboki.

Being Polish and knowing all that (and more) doesn't turn me anti-Semite. I know that this is not the voice of the Jew's majority. This is a voice of some bastards who want to earn money and gain politically. Who have got access to the money and the media.
Mostly American Jews.

The ones who did absolutely nothing on the Ellis Island.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07
Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Mar 1, 11, 22:11    #5
enkidu:
What is the death of 3mln Poles comparing to the death of 3mln Jews?


This number is not clear either:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland_(1945%E2%80%931989)#War time_devastation.2C_border_and_population_shifts

...
Poland suffered heavy losses during World War II. While in 1939 Poland had 35.1 million inhabitants,[2] at the end of the war only 29.1 million remained within its borders.[2]

The first post-war census of 14 February 1946 showed 23.9 million due to migration.[3] It is estimated that 6 million Polish citizens – nearly 21.4% of Poland's population died between 1939 and 1945,[4][5] nevertheless, the number of ethnic Polish victims could have been smaller by as much as 50% due to multiethnic diversity of prewar Poland reflected in national censuses – according to 2009 statement by German-Polish reconciliation commission.

It seems Poland counted around 1,5 mill Germans to it's polish victims!
enkiduThreads: 18
Posts: 983
Joined: Sep 23, 08
Edited by: enkidu  Mar 1, 11, 22:15    #6
Bratwurst Boy:
It seems Poland counted 1,5 mill Germans as polish victims!


1.5mln of Germans living in Poland prior to 1939? That is interesting.
Where did you get this number?

BTW - As a German you should consider the opportunity of being quiet in this thread.
(Just a friendly advice)
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07
Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Mar 1, 11, 22:17    #7
enkidu:
1.5mln of Germans living in Poland prior to 1939. That is interesting.
Where did you get this number.


Nope...victims...after 1945!
I don't know how they get to that number but there had been a commission.

enkidu:
BTW - As a German you should consider the opportunity of being quiet in this thread.
(Just a friendly advice)


Why? (just a friendly question)
grubasThreads: 20
Posts: 1,452
Joined: Feb 1, 10
 Pictures: 1
 Mar 1, 11, 22:27    #8
masks98:
Am I wrong?

You are mostly right.Sure there were some Poles giving Jews away to Germans but I don't think somebody who did not live in German occupied Poland has a right to judge them.A Jew hiding close to your home was a bad, bad news.Sometimes Germans were killing not only people hiding Jews but also their neighbors when they assumed that the neigbous knew about it and did not report .Now, would you risk yours and your familiy life to save someone you don't even know?Most of the survived jews were saved but Poles who knew them since before the war.Another thing is that not all Jews were (are) as good natured people as they paint themselves.There was a lot of tensions between Poles and Jews in pre war Poland.As I said NOBODY has a right to judge war time Poles.As for "Polish" politicians,many of them are Jews themselves and most Poles do not agree with what they say on the issue (e.g Kwasniewski apologizing in Poles name for Jedwabne,well I am not sorry,I wasn't there at that time and if he wants to apologize he can speak only for himself.)The whole thing is blown out of proportion and most people of Poland is already sick of it and honestly they don't give a f u c k about the holocoust.The problem are American Jews (they control mass media in the US) bringing it up over and over in order to squeeze money out of Poland even though they themselves did nothing to help European Jews.They will not get anything.People from the other side of "iron courtain" were extremaly brainwashed,many Americans to this day believe that the Germany were beaten thanks to American landing in Normandy and have no idea about the sacrifice and effort of the Red Army on Eastern front.Same goes for the Holocaust.
KsysiaThreads: 39
Posts: 545
Joined: May 6, 09
Edited by: Ksysia  Mar 1, 11, 22:41    #9
Life is way more complicated than Hollywood would like us believe.

For example, Germans have settled and lived in Poland and became the citizens ever since medieval ages. They were craftsmen and farmers.

In the 19/20th centuries the families living in eastern Poland, today's Belaruss and Ukraine were actually Poles of German origin. It was common practice to hire German governesses for the children because they were seen as good with children (yes, Poles hiring German au-pairs).

Another thing is that Jews are not the ultimate victims, they were as much part of this incredibly complicated society as all others, Ormians included.

Many of the Polish officers killed in Katyń were Jewish for example - but they went ahead as Poles. Other Jews were siding with the enemy,

RP, the biggest daily has published some memories from those years here:
http://uwazamrze.pl/2011/02/wrog-klasowy-jaruzelski/

Wojciech's sister, Teresa Tarnawska, told: 'The town was decorated with red flags, some individuals - mostly Jews - were running across the town with red bands and apprehend Polish officers who showed up there from the defeated units, they would lock them up in stables, pigsties, and as related, were to shoot them. When the tabor came for us the gun fight begun. And then for the first and hopefully the last time I've seen people let to be shot. Those people were the mentioned individuals captured by Polish soldiers, the same who first inflicted violence on Polish officers.'


Siostra Wojciecha, Teresa Tarnawska, opowiadała: „Miasteczko było udekorowane czerwonymi flagami, jacyś osobnicy – byli to w większości Żydzi – biegali po mieście z czerwonymi opaskami i chwytali polskich oficerów, którzy pojawiali się z rozbitych oddziałów, zamykali ich w stajniach i chlewach, i jak mówiono, mieli rozstrzeliwać. Gdy nadjechał nasz tabor, wywiązała się strzelanina. I wtedy pierwszy i oby ostatni raz widziałam ludzi prowadzonych na rozstrzał. Byli to z kolei wspomniani przeze mnie osobnicy pojmani przez polskich żołnierzy, a pastwiący się poprzednio nad polskimi oficerami”.
vetalaThreads: -
Posts: 512
Joined: Jul 10, 09
 Mar 1, 11, 22:42    #10
Bratwurst Boy:
It seems Poland counted around 1,5 mill Germans to it's polish victims!

They've already been counted in the Polish population before the war, why shouldn't they be counted among the victims then? All too often people forget the fact that only about 60% of the pre-war Polish population was ethnically Polish.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07
Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Mar 1, 11, 22:52    #11
vetala:
Bratwurst Boy:
It seems Poland counted around 1,5 mill Germans to it's polish victims!

They've already been counted in the Polish population before the war, why shouldn't they be counted among the victims then?


Because I would find it abit..umm...erm...how do I say it..dishonest to count killed/expelled/refugees as brave polish victims.

I mean if they had been Poles they would count as Poles but they were counted as Germans what would make them at least to Volksdeutsche.
They should be counted to Germany's losses not Polands....because their killers had been surely not Germans!
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,431
Joined: May 28, 09
Edited by: PlasticPole  Mar 1, 11, 23:10    #12
masks98:
I stepped forward and said that Israel needs to calm down and said that after all "you don't see Poland armed to the teeth harassing its neighbors and constantly bringing up the holocaust to justify being an aggressive power."

Those two countries are not in the same situation. Are Poland's neighbors sending suicide bombers into Poland to kill innocent people to prove a point? That is quite a stretch, comparing the two situations which are nothing alike.
I don't always agree with Israeli foreign policies but this post of yours is ludicrous!
grubasThreads: 20
Posts: 1,452
Joined: Feb 1, 10
 Pictures: 1
 Mar 1, 11, 23:16    #13
PlasticPole:
Is Poland's neighbors sending suicide bombers into Poland to kill innocent people to prove a point?

What do you mean "to prove a point"?Palestinians have a much better and more justified reason to do it than just "to prove a point".
Grzegorz_Threads: 81
Posts: 6,213
Joined: Nov 16, 06
Edited by: Grzegorz_  Mar 1, 11, 23:27    #14
masks98:
I was laughed at.


I'm not surprised. What you heard is being promoted as It is in interest of many groups more influencial than Poles. Gerries are pissing in their pants hearing about "Polish antisemitis, Polish collaboration etc." as It makes so called Holocaust look more like a "European" crime, French and all are happy that their collaboration is not in the spotlight, Jews are happy as it makes them look even more victimized, holocaust industry is just behind the corner with the compensations...

Bratwurst Boy:


They forgot about a few hundered thousand Poles, who stayed abroad, both in the east and west, so there's a chance that soon you can quote a source claiming that Polish population actually increased during WW2.
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,431
Joined: May 28, 09
 Mar 1, 11, 23:30    #15
grubas:
What do you mean "to prove a point"?Palestinians have a much better and more justified reason to do it than just "to prove a point".

They have no reason to do that any more than a minority has the right to commit a crime just because they feel oppressed. You don't go that way.
isthatu2Threads: 13
Posts: 5,225
Joined: Apr 3, 08
 Mar 2, 11, 00:38    #16
enkidu:
BTW - As a German you should consider the opportunity of being quiet in this thread.
(Just a friendly advice)

Why,did BB march into poland in jackboots singing Erika ?
enkidu:
There was a numerous ships full of European Jews turned back from Ellis Island straight to the Auschwitz gas-chambers.

wrong,no ship from europe would be leaving for new york in 1942!!!
Its silly lies like this that enable deniers to call the whole thing a lie,just be carefull.
Marek11111Threads: 49
Posts: 1,954
Joined: Aug 6, 09
 Pictures: 1
 Mar 2, 11, 00:44    #17
pp:They have no reason to do that any more than a minority has the right to commit a crime just because they feel oppressed. You don't go that way.

So what rights does Israel has to bomb Palestinians and to lock them in biggest ghetto
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,431
Joined: May 28, 09
 Mar 2, 11, 00:51    #18
Marek11111:
So what rights does Israel has to bomb Palestinians and to lock them in biggest ghetto

They do it because of the suicide bombings. That is the sole reason.
enkiduThreads: 18
Posts: 983
Joined: Sep 23, 08
 Mar 2, 11, 01:21    #19
isthatu2:
Why,did BB march into poland in jackboots singing Erika ?


Why? Out of old fashioned decency.

isthatu2:
wrong,no ship from europe would be leaving for new york in 1942!!!
Its silly lies like this that enable deniers to call the whole thing a lie,just be carefull.


Who said 1942? Me?
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,441
Joined: Dec 7, 08
 Pictures: 2
Edited by: PennBoy  Mar 2, 11, 01:30    #20
Bratwurst Boy:
It seems Poland counted around 1,5 mill Germans to it's polish victims!

Slow down BB. Multi ethnic diversity 1931 Poland:
* Poles, 68.9% of the population
* Ukrainians, 13.9%
* Jews, 8.7%
* Belarusians, 3.1%
* Germans, 2.3%
* Other, 3.1%
There were far more Ukrainians and Belorussians in Poland than Germans. Besides Jews (3.1 m) and Poles (2m) the other Slavs were targets and it's mostly them who are the remainder of victims. P.S the roughly 2 million Poles are ethnic Poles, not any Polish citizen.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
Posts: 2,318
Joined: Feb 6, 10
 Pictures: 4[Suspended]
 Mar 2, 11, 01:37    #21
PlasticPole:
They do it because of the suicide bombings. That is the sole reason.

The Israelis lock Palestinians up in Gaza and the West Bank because many of these Palestinians are refugees from Israel who would try to go home to rebuilt their villages and towns which were ethnically cleansed by armed Zionist militias in 1947-1949. The Zionists do not allow these refugees to return because they are not Jewish. The state of Israel is founded and maintained through such racism.
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,431
Joined: May 28, 09
 Mar 2, 11, 01:39    #22
Des Essientes:
The Zionists do not allow these refugees to return because they are not Jewish.

There are plenty of non jews living in Israel.
isthatu2Threads: 13
Posts: 5,225
Joined: Apr 3, 08
 Mar 2, 11, 01:42    #23
enkidu:
Who said 1942? Me?

"straight to aushwitz gas chambers"......you didnt say it,but,the final solution ,the systematic plan to kill all europes jews didnt swing into action untill 1942,especially as far as "Gas Chambers " go. A small number had been killed in late 1941 but this was members of the sonder kommando who would not all have been jewish.
It wasnt untill spring 1942 that Jews were being deliberatly transported to Auschwitz to be gassed.
Sure,you could argue that what you meant was that people who had been denied entry to the US then went on a year or 3 later to be killed in Auschwitz and say Im splitting hairs,but its important to stick to facts rather than hyperbole when talking about the subject.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
Posts: 2,318
Joined: Feb 6, 10
 Pictures: 4[Suspended]
Edited by: Des Essientes  Mar 2, 11, 01:43    #24
PlasticPole:
There are plenty of non jews living in Israel.

So what? The Zionists didn't expell all the non-Jews. Does that somehow make the ethnic cleansing of 1 million non-Jews in 47-49 acceptable? No it doesn't, nor is the denial of the right of return for the Palestinian refugees acceptable.
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,431
Joined: May 28, 09
 Mar 2, 11, 01:46    #25
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_ethnic_Poles

Sums it up.
warszawskiThreads: 60
Posts: 2,387
Joined: May 21, 10
 Mar 2, 11, 02:32    #26
grubas:
most people of Poland is already sick of it and honestly they don't give a f u c k about the holocoust.


This is when the problems start and history could repeat itself, don't forget.

Ksysia:
Many of the Polish officers killed in Katyń were Jewish for example - but they went ahead as Poles. Other Jews were siding with the enemy,


Many of the inmates killed in the Nazi concentration camps where Polish jews.

grubas:
The problem are American Jews


The problem is people that do not learn from history, no matter what religion or atheist.

masks98:
I stepped forward and said that Israel needs to calm down and said that after all "you don't see Poland armed to the teeth harassing its neighbors and constantly bringing up the holocaust to justify being an aggressive power." I was laughed at


It is quite a strange comparison.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
Posts: 2,318
Joined: Feb 6, 10
 Pictures: 4[Suspended]
Edited by: Des Essientes  Mar 2, 11, 07:21    #27
warszawski:
It is quite a strange comparison.

Yeah it is strange comparing a country like Poland where everyone has equal rights regardless of their ethnicity to a racist enthnocracy like Israel.
puellaThreads: 9
Posts: 319
Joined: Jan 10, 11
 Mar 2, 11, 13:29    #28
masks98:
One could also mention that while 3 million Jews were Killed in Poland, The Poles themselves were to suffer complete extermination, and that 2 to 3 million Poles subsequently perished. Isn't that a glaring omission??

Am I wrong?


3 mln Polish Jews. Overally 6 mln Jews died during II World War.
There are many views about how many Poles died because of Nazi German occupation. It is said that it's between 2.5 - 3 mln. But it's really hard to count. I'm not sure if that number is solely ethnic Poles number or is it also include non-jewish Polish citizen of other ethnicity (e.g. Ukrainians) but certainly most of that number were Poles.

read this short article in can give you a brief knowledge about the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_ethnic_Poles

Also:
it is estimated that about 16,000 members of the Polish resistance were killed and about 6,000 badly wounded. In addition, between 150,000 and 200,000 civilians died, mostly from mass murders conducted by troops fighting on the German side.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_uprising

Read also about Intelligenzaktion, Generalplan Ost


So yes you are right, but how many Holywood movies about this subject have you seen?


Btw. who are those people you were talking to? I'm just curious.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07
[Suspended]
Edited by: Harry  Mar 2, 11, 14:04    #29
masks98:
"you don't see Poland armed to the teeth harassing its neighbors and constantly bringing up the holocaust to justify being an aggressive power."

Quite right: the Polish excuse was 'the partitions'. That is why independent Poland was armed to the teeth and not only harassed its neighbours but also invaded them (Czechoslovakia (twice), Lithuania, Ukraine), threatened to invade them if they didn't do what Poland told them to (Lithuania), broke treaties/agreements with them (Czechoslovakia (twice), Lithuania, Ukraine), and stabbed them in the back selling them to the Soviets and stealing their land (Ukraine). None of this was done because some Poles are not very nice people (Poles are well known to be the nation of never-wrongs, the only nation whose members are all 100% perfect): it was all done because of the partitions of Poland.

puella:
Read also about Intelligenzaktion, Generalplan Ost

I'd love to read the Generalplan Ost. Have you perchance got a link to a copy of it?
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07
Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Mar 2, 11, 14:08    #30
....also Polands neighbours are not standing at the borders, firing rockets, sending suicide bombers into polish restaurants and marketplaces and demanding the annihilation of Poland.

What a comparison!


page 1 of 7:  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Next »

Home / History of Poland / Unanswered [this forum] | Similar


Similar discussions:

"I was more afraid of fellow Poles than Nazi German Officers", says Bartoszewski  Help identify medals for a Polish soldiers Grandson please


Random: Add (Polish words) to favourites

Only registered and logged-in users may post here. Please log in or register.


55 [Guests - 37 / Members - 18] users on live forums now


Home | Unanswered | Archives | Random | Statistics Time in Poland: 16:58 / May 26

About Us | Contact Us | Rules, Privacy | Poland Advertising

© 2005-12 PolishForums.com