Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto?

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Feb 19, 09, 16:40 #121

1jola:

If you don't have anything to say about Auschwitz or the Ghetto, beat it.

Seeing as Prince is claiming that the Jaworzno and Zgoda Polish concentration camps were run by men who "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish" and that both the Jaworzno and Zgoda Polish concentration camps were formerly sub-camps of Auschwitz, I am attempting to discuss Auschwitz.

The problem is that Prince has now run away from his lies and refuses to name the men who ran those camps and now "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish".

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Feb 19, 09, 16:41 #122

This is an interesting book.

Am I a Murder?: Testament of a Jewish Ghetto Policeman (the original title is “A History of a Jewish Family During German Occupation”) by Calel Perechodnik is an interesting account by a twenty-seven year old ghetto policeman in Otwock, a town near Warsaw. Perechodnik began his memoir on May 7, 1943, while hiding in the home of a Polish woman in Warsaw. The memoir, which is primarily a confession of the guilt he feels for his responsibility in bringing about the deportation of his wife and two year old daughter and their subsequent death in Treblinka, is unique among Holocaust testimonies and is extremely thought provoking. Perechodnik’s account shares his profound sense of guilt for his inability to save his wife and child although that was the primary reason for his decision to become a ghetto policeman in early 1941. His description of the deportation on August 19, 1942, at the Umschlagplatz is chilling. The picture of his wife and daughter, sitting with the other victims as he carries out his duties, creates a surreal, circus-like scene that is intensified as he loads his boxcars. In relation to the previously mentioned comments by Viktor Frankl about the freedom of individuals in making decisions, it is interesting to compare the choices of Perechodnik, who carries out his duties at the Umschlagplatz, and his friend and fellow officer Abram Willendorf, who removes his police armband and joins his family in their wait for death. Perechodnik mentions several times his admiration for Willendorf, as well as for Janusz Korczak, who chose to die with the children under his care, but, sorrowfully, confesses that his fear of death prevented him from making the right decision.

http://academic.kellogg.edu/mandel/collins_rev.htm

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Feb 19, 09, 16:43 #123

Bzibzioh:

Again, don't hold your breath waiting for Harry-I-don't-have-an-agenda to give you a strait answer.

My apologies for jola needing to wait 17 whole minutes for a straight answer. How long have I been waiting for Prince to to name the men who ran those Polish concentration camps and now "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish"? Will you post about that too?

Again I need to extend my congratulations to you for making a post which entirely fails to engage in debate but instead focuses on personal matters. Superb stuff.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Feb 19, 09, 16:47 #124
I understand, but why do you have to do it on this thread. Start a new one.

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Feb 19, 09, 16:51 #125

How much gold Irena Sendlerowa demanded to help the hundereds of Polish Jews she saved.... none!

That there were Jewish collaborators is not a secret if it was then you would not have been able to copy and paste references to it. It is not secret either that Poles also collaborated and exploited Jews either. I personally have acknowledged both throughout this thread. The fact that Jewish memoirs mention Jewish collabortaion often must tell you that even Jews recognise the wrongs committed by some Jews!

It seems you cannot acknowledge the fact that Poles were also as much involved in the self-serving exploitation of the ghetto Jews, as the Jewish Police, the 13's et al.

To a moral person there is a difference between extorting over-inflated price from a starving person in exchange for food to save that life than a fair trade. If such a trade could ever be fair. There is no doubting the fact that prices were extortionate because the Polish Jews had no choice to pay that price or starve to death and this fact was ruthlessly exploited by both Polish 'Blueys' on the ghetto gates, the Jewish Police, the German guards, plus 13's etc., And who was risking their lives doing the smuggling?

Of course you could say that since the ghetto Jews were going have to pay any price it might as well be to me... its going to happen anyway and of course they can't eat gold or their fur-coats, artworks or jewellery, boots, silks, and everything else they had until they starved to death.

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08 ♂	Edited by: Prince Feb 19, 09, 16:56 #126
This little pig Harry wants to connect after WWII commie camps with WWII German camps. Non of them were Polish. Ask those who sold Poland in Yalta about this post WWII Soviet camps build by NKVD and by right Stalins hand in Poland - Jakub Berman. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakub_Berman As to WWII camps they were German opperated. Don't feed Harry.

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Edited by: Harry Feb 19, 09, 17:04 #127

Prince:

This little pig Harry

Good to see that you have to rely on personal abuse now that your statements have been exposed as anti-semitic lies.

Prince:

wants to connect after WWII commie camps with WWII German camps.

Do you deny that both the Jaworzno and Zgoda Polish concentration camps were formerly sub-camps of Auschwitz?

Prince:

None of them were Polish.

The post-WWII concentration camps in Poland were run by Poles at the order of Poles. They were Polish.

Prince:

Ask those who sold Poland in Yalta

Know the names of any good mediums? Churchill and Roosevelt are both dead....

Prince:

about this post WWII Soviet camps build by NKVD and by right Stalin hand in Poland Berman (Google this name).

As has already been stated: the post-WWII Polish concentration camps were built by the Nazis. Poles just decided to make use of the existing facilities.

Prince:

As to WWII camps they were German opperated.

Yes they were.

Now, please name the men who ran the Polish concentration camps and who now "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish". Either that or admit that you have been telling anti-semitic lies.

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Edited by: sjam Feb 19, 09, 17:06 #128

miranda:

I am sure they did, even though Kossak- Szczucka was ani- semitic - that is very Christian;)

Miranda your point was that:

miranda:

don't mix religion with it. She was a good person because she was a good person, not because she was a Christian.

and my reply showed quite clearly that religious belief did play a part in her actions for good. So mixing religion with it was not mixing but a fact borne out in action.

And yet despite being an openly antisemite Kossak- Szczucka did not believe that Polish Jews should be treated as less than human. I see no conflict with this view and she was not trying to murder them or extort money from them in fact she did the opposite. So what does that tell you!

1jola:

What was the penalty for smuggling? What was the penalty for aiding Jews?

German threats of execution didn't seem to stop women like Irena Sendlerowa or Zofia Kossak-Szczucka saving several thousand Polish Jews from death. They were not they only ones. Just read He Who Saves One Life by Kazimierz Iranek-Osmecki and you will see not every Pole was out to extort from the Polish Jews no matter what the very real German threats were for doing so.

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂	Feb 19, 09, 17:09 #129
1jola: I understand, but why do you have to do it on this thread. I am attempting to discuss Auschwitz and what happened to parts of it after the war. Therefore this is the correct thread because this thread asks about Auschwitz.

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Edited by: Prince Feb 19, 09, 17:13 #130

You are manipulative and provocative but we play in one team. :)

Harry:

Poles just decided to make use of the existing facilities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakub_Berman

Between 1944–1956 Berman was a member of Politbiuro of Polish United Workers' Party (PUWP) responsible for Urząd Bezpieczeństwa (State Security Services), propaganda, and ideology. In this capacity he was directly responsible for Stalinist-type terror and repressions against real and imagined political opponents of the communist regime in Poland. Urząd Bezpieczeństwa prosecution of ex-Home Army members, Roman Catholic Church clergy, and purges in the military, resulted in at least 6,000 death sentences, imprisonment and prosecuction of estimated 500,000 Polish patriots.

Berman is brother of Adolf Berman, a Zionist activist.

Harry:

Now, please name the men who ran the Polish concentration camps and who now "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salomon_Morel

Salomon (Solomon or Shlomo) Morel (November 15, 1919 in Grabowo, Poland – February 14, 2007 in Tel Aviv) was a Jew born in Poland. He was a Holocaust survivor who, between February and November 1945, was a member of the Urząd Bezpieczeństwa (State Security) and the commandant of the Stalinist-era concentration camp Zgoda in Świętochłowice, Poland.

In 1998, an extradition request for Morel was rejected by Israel. A reply sent to the Polish Justice Ministry from Israeli authorities said that Israel would not extradite Mr Morel .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Wolińska-Brus

Helena Wolińska-Brus (1919-2008) (born as Fajga Mindla Danielak) was a former military prosecutor from Poland, involved in Stalinist regime show trials of the 1950s. She has been implicated in the arrests - and in some cases deaths - of key figures in Poland's anti-Nazi resistance. From 1999-2008, Poland had been seeking the extradition of Wolińska from the United Kingdom to stand trial in Poland.

Wolińska was born in a Polish Jewish family in Warsaw.

In an interview with The Sunday Telegraph, Wolińska said she would not return to "the country of Auschwitz and Birkenau", claiming she would not receive fair trial in Poland. Despite her involvement in Stalinist-era crimes she called to forget that period in her life and, in her own words, "not to disrupt her with this silly prosecution"

Of course there were oppositionists with Jewish origin, and "ethnic" Polish commies.

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Edited by: Harry Feb 19, 09, 17:27 #131

Prince:

You are manipulative and provocative but we play in one team. :)

You are a plain and simple liar.

Prince:

Between 1944–1956 Berman ......

An excellent quote (forgive me for not repeating it in full) but one that says nothing about who built the Polish concentration camps. Do you deny that both the Jaworzno and Zgoda Polish concentration camps were formerly sub-camps of Auschwitz?

Prince:

Harry: Now, please name the men who ran the Polish concentration camps and who now "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salomon_Morel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Wolińska-Brus

a) Helena Wolińska didn't run concentration camps.
b) Helena Wolińska didn't live in Israel.
c) Helena Wolińska didn't pretend to be Israeli.
d) Salomon Morel is one camp commander. You said "the men". Who are the others?
e) Salomon Morel doesn't live in Israel.
f) You haven't named a single person other than Morel who commanded a Polish concentration camp.
g) You haven't named a single person other than Morel who commanded a Polish concentration camp and lived in Israel.
h) Are you going to name the the men who ran the Polish concentration camps and who now "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish" or are you going to admit to telling anti-semitic lies?

miranda

Feb 19, 09, 17:32 #132

sjam:

and my reply showed quite clearly that religious belief did play a part in her actions for good. So mixing religion with it was not mixing but a fact borne out in action.

And yet despite being an openly antisemite Kossak- Szczucka did not believe that Polish Jews should be treated as less than human. I see no conflict with this view and she was not trying to murder them or extort money from them in fact she did the opposite. So what does that tell you!

I admire that in her, however her being openly anti-semitic does not hold well when Christian values come into play. However, I have nothing but respect for Polish people, who helped Jews during the WW2. Many of them will probably remain unknown. I also understand that during those time Polish people were oppressed by Germans, which made it even harder to think of helping others when their own lives were at stake.

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Edited by: Prince Feb 19, 09, 17:33 #133

Harry you are povocartive and you are looking for excuse to use "Polish concentration camp"

I am realy sorry but this camps are offcialy called "Stalinist camps" because they were opperated by Stalinists from different countries with different ethnic background.

Camps from WWII :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_death_camp

UNESCO change the official name of Auschwitz from "Auschwitz Concentration Camp" to "former Nazi German concentration camp Auschwitz-Birkenau" in order to make clearer that the concentration camp was built and operated by the Germans. On 28 June 2007 at its meeting in Christchurch, New Zealand, the World Heritage Committee of UNESCO changed the name of the camp to "Auschwitz Birkenau. German Nazi Concentration and Extermination Camp (1940-1945)

Lets stick to official names of this camps. This issues has been debated by UNESCO. You can take your lies with you. You can writte to UNESCO and use your debate skills :)

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09 ♂	Feb 19, 09, 17:40 #134
1jola: Yes, who? The food smugglers were mainly Jewish children from the ghetto itself not Poles. Though there is one excellent memoir of a non-jewish boy joining the Jewish boys smuggling food from on the 'Aryan' side into the ghetto, but he was not taking gold or other payments for his smuggling. Title escapes me.

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Feb 19, 09, 17:46 #135

Pay attention to the second paragraph.

"Of the 318 people working for Ganzweich, 300 formed the “police force,” [not to be confused with the much larger Jewish order police which reported to the Jewish council], eight were employed as drivers, motor-car mechanics and in similar honest occupations, and the rest were lawyers, who formed a court that went through the legal motions of trying people guilty of profiteering and blackmarketeering. In fact, only a few small bakers, butchers and smugglers were heavily fined or kept in The Thirteen’s prison until they paid up. The 300 policemen performed the functions of an American gangster’s hoodlums and with their help Ganzweich forced all the important businessmen in the ghetto, irrespective of whether they were honest or dishonest, to pay him protection money, which he shared with his Gestapo patrons.
As practically everything needed in the ghetto had to be smuggled in, Ganzweich’s protection racket also extended to this vital activity. Before any article could be brought into the ghetto, bribes had to be paid to the Polish police, the ghetto police and to officials of the German Crminal Police, and even then there was no guarantee that it would reach the ghetto, for a German gendarme patrolling around its walls might seize it. However, if one paid protection money to The Thirteen, the article was certain to reach the ghetto without any other bribes being paid."
70 Reuben Ainsztein, The Warsaw Ghetto Revolt (New York: Holocaust Library, 1979), 9–16, 88; Reuben
Ainsztein, Jewish Resistance in Nazi-Occupied Eastern Europe (London: Paul Elek, 1974), 557–63.

So who was extorting who?

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Feb 19, 09, 17:49 #136

Prince:

I am realy sorry but this camps are offcialy called "Stalinist camps" because they were opperated by Stalinists from different countries with different ethnic background.

Lets stick to official names of this camps. This issues has been debated by UNESCO. You can take your lies with you. You can writte to UNESCO and use your debate skills :)

Don't lie. UNESCO haven't said a word about the names of the post-WWII Polish concentration camps.

And the 'official' name for these camps does not include the word "Stalinist". Centralny Obóz Pracy w Jaworznie = Central Labour Camp Jaworzno http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal/en/2/71/ Centralny Obóz Pracy w Potulicach = Central Labour Camp Potulice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Labour_Camp_Potulice Obóz Pracy Świętochłowice-Zgoda = Świętochłowice-Zgoda Labour Camp http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal.php?serwis=pl&dzial=239&id=3758&poz=3 Obóz Pracy w Łambinowicach = Łambinowice Labour Camp http://www.cmjw.pl/www/index_gb.php?id=oboz_prac

Are you going to name the the men who ran the Polish concentration camps and who now "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish" or are you going to admit to telling anti-semitic lies?

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Feb 19, 09, 17:53 #137
sjam: Title escapes me. You operate with no sources whatsoever, pumpkin.

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Edited by: Prince Feb 19, 09, 17:53 #138

Harry I love this debate :)

I like debate you provoke but just read first link you posted.

http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal/en/2/71/
First words:

Response by the State of Israel to the application for the extradition of Salomon Morel and a report by Dr. Adam Dziurok and Prosecutor Andrzej Majcher on the subject of Salomon Morel and the history and operation of the camp at Świętochłowice-Zgoda.

:)))

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Feb 19, 09, 17:56 #139

Harry:

Don't lie. UNESCO haven't said a word about the names of the post-WWII Polish concentration camps.

And the 'official' name for these camps does not include the word "Stalinist". Centralny Obóz Pracy w Jaworznie = Central Labour Camp Jaworzno http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal/en/2/71/ Centralny Obóz Pracy w Potulicach = Central Labour Camp Potulice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Labour_Camp_Potulice Obóz Pracy Świętochłowice-Zgoda = Świętochłowice-Zgoda Labour Camp http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal.php?serwis=pl&dzial=239&id=3758&poz=3 Obóz Pracy w Łambinowicach = Łambinowice Labour Camp

So they were Polish labor camps, not Polish concentration camps.

I'm glad we got that settled. Good day, sir!

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Feb 19, 09, 17:56 #140

Prince:

just read first link you posted.

http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal/en/2/71/
First words:

Response by the State of Israel to the application for the extradition of Salomon Morel and a report by Dr. Adam Dziurok and Prosecutor Andrzej Majcher on the subject of Salomon Morel and the history and operation of the camp at Świętochłowice-Zgoda.

I did indeed read the link. And nowhere in it is there information that the official name of the Polish concentration camp at Świętochłowice-Zgoda was the "Stalinist concentration camp at Świętochłowice-Zgoda". In other words, you have been proved to be lying when you claimed that the official name of the Polish concentration camp at Świętochłowice-Zgoda was the "Stalinist concentration camp at Świętochłowice-Zgoda".

Are you going to name the the men who ran the Polish concentration camps and who now "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish" or are you going to admit to telling anti-semitic lies?

miranda	Feb 19, 09, 18:04 #141
Harry: Are you going to name the the men who ran the Polish concentration camps and who now "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish" or are you going to admit to telling anti-semitic lies? hey, I think that he did name Salomon Morel who ended up in Israel. What is your point Harry. I am just sticking to the facts here.

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08 ♂	Edited by: Prince Feb 19, 09, 18:05 #142
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal Poland has been sold in Yalta by Allies. 500 000 of Polish people were arrested. You can't claim this camps to be Polish as long as Poland was Sovied occupied. Maybe you claim American prisons in Iraq to be Iraqis :)

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Feb 19, 09, 18:14 #143

The Potulice concentration camp was established during World War II by German state authorities in occupied Poland in Potulice near Nakło. It is notable as a detention centre for Polish children that underwent the Nazi experiment in forced Germanisation.

Central Labour Camp Potulice (Polish: Centralny Obóz Pracy w Potulicach) was a detention centre for Germans and Poles established by Polish Communist authorities after the end of World War II in Potulice, in place of the former German Nazi Potulice concentration camp. The camp was in operation since 1945 until 1950.

Harry, can't you read?

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Feb 19, 09, 18:17 #144

miranda:

hey, I think that he did name Salomon Morel who ended up in Israel. What is your point Harry. I am just sticking to the facts here.

He claimed the men who ran the post-WWII Polish concentration camps now live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish. I pointed out that just one camp commander fits that description and asked him to provide the names of the camp commanders. I provided the names of two men who commanded post-WWII Polish concentration camps and were not Jewish and had never lived in Israel (including one who was put on trial in post-communist Poland but then had his case dismissed because he was feeling a bit unwell). I can provide more names if need be.

Prince is refusing to to name the the men who ran the Polish concentration camps and who now "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish" because he knows that his claim is a lie.

miranda

Edited by: miranda Feb 19, 09, 18:24 #145

Harry:

He claimed the men who ran the post-WWII Polish concentration camps now live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish. I pointed out that just one camp commander fits that description and asked him to provide the names of the camp commanders. I provided the names of two men who commanded post-WWII Polish concentration camps and were not Jewish and had never lived in Israel (including one who was put on trial in post-communist Poland but then had his case dismissed because he was feeling a bit unwell).

well, based on your discussion with Prince I have lernt that Morel was the only one who ended up in Israel and was of a Jewish decent Pole
- but I haven't done my own research, so I am just basing my conclusion on your exchange with Prince.

Harry:

I can provide more names if need be.

that would be good.

Harry:

Prince is refusing to to name the the men who ran the Polish concentration camps and who now "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish" because he knows that his claim is a lie.

there seem to be one so far. Are there more of Jewish decent people to your knowledge who shared similar to Morel's history?
I am just curious.

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Feb 19, 09, 18:25 #146

1jola:

The Potulice concentration camp was established during World War II by German state authorities in occupied Poland in Potulice near Nakło. It is notable as a detention centre for Polish children that underwent the Nazi experiment in forced Germanisation.

Harry, can't you read?

I can but apparently you can not. From the wikipedia page you pulled your quote from:
"The site of the camp was used as a detention centre (Central Labour Camp Potulice) by Polish Communist authorities after World War II.[7] About 3500 ethnic Germans died in the camp in the years 1945 to 1950."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potulice_concentration_camp

Although I must say that I fail to see anything in either wikipedia page you quote from that names the the men who ran the Polish concentration camps and who now "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish".

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Edited by: Prince Feb 19, 09, 18:26 #147

Harry this stroy is not about the Jews ... but I have mentioned many names just to make this debate more interesting. I don't think that communism was Jewish conspirancy.
From the other hand we can see that for sure ethnic back ground wasn't barrer in career in Stalinist Poland...

This debate is about what have happend in sold by Allies for communist who in free Poland had no chances.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal

miranda	Feb 19, 09, 18:30 #148
one problem I have notice in this exchange: - semantics in relation to Polish concentration camps vs. labour camps (during communism) which in their nature were like concentration camps (during German occupation in Poland)

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Edited by: Prince Feb 19, 09, 18:34 #149

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal

The "betrayal" refers to the fact that the western Allies—in spite of having promoted democracy and self-determination, signing pacts and forming military alliances prior and during World War II—nonetheless betrayed their Central European allies by abandoning these pacts. For example by not preventing Nazi Germany from invading and occupying Czechoslovakia (Munich Betrayal) or abandoning its Polish ally during 1939 Polish September Campaign[2] and 1944 Warsaw Uprising. Western powers signed the Yalta agreement and after the World War II did nothing or very little to prevent these states from falling under the influence and control of Soviet communism. In addition, during the 1956 Hungarian Revolution, Hungary neither received military nor moral support from the Western powers during the uprising which was eventually violently suppressed by the Red Army.[4] The same scenario was repeated in 1968 when communist armies of Warsaw Pact nations led by the Red Army invaded Czechoslovakia to crush the Prague Spring changes in the governing communist system.

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Feb 19, 09, 18:34 #150

miranda:

that would be good.

For Jaworzno we have Stefan Szablewski, Włodzimierz Staniszewski, Stanisław Kwiatkowski, Ivan Mordasov and Teofil Hazelmajer.
http://www.sknp.umcs.lublin.pl/materialy/Obozy_pracy_w_Polsce_Ludowej_ Jaworzno.pdf

"Teofil Hazelmajer" is not a particularly Catholic sounding name but it's a bit of a stretch to say that because of that name he must now "live in Israel and claim to be Israeli not Polish".

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