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Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto?

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SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Feb 20, 09, 14:20 #211
Harry: And I'd love the publicity too. What publicity ? I'm not involved, anti-polish crimes are taken care of administratively so i'll count on you keeping us up to date, you might also reread your previous posts with "polish racists" and so on before you go on being arrogant and overconfident :)

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Edited by: sjam Feb 20, 09, 14:25 #212

Harry:

That most people might equate concentration camps with the Aktion Reinhard camps is as irrelevant

Actually not, if you want to help people understand the difference between Nazi concentration camps and extermination camps and those Post-war Polish internment/concentration camps.

For example I believe Treblinka and Sobibor were purely extermination camps whereas Auschwitz was both an exterminantion camp and a concentration camp; for the majority of Jews it was an extermination camp, whereas for the majority of non-Jews is was a concentration camp ie; Polish political prisoners like Pilecki and my Warsaw lawyer's grandfather and my own grandmother at Ravensbruck; were not automatically faced with selection for death or work unlike the Jews arriving at Auschwitz and other concentration camps.

That is my view only.

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Feb 20, 09, 14:41 #213

sjam:

For example I believe Treblinka and Sobibor were purely extermination camps whereas Auschwitz was both an exterminantion camp and a concentration camp;

Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzac were purely extermination camps. Auschwitz I was a concentration camp. Auschwitz II (Birkenau) was a mixed extermination and concentration camp. Majdanek also started as a concentration camp and became an extermination camp.

Sokrates:

What publicity ? I'm not involved, anti-polish crimes are taken care of administratively so i'll count on you keeping us up to date, you might also reread your previous posts with "polish racists" and so on before you go on being arrogant and overconfident :)

You think that a trial in a country which has so far failed to prosecute any of the commanders of its concentration camps involving a foreigner who dares to speak the truth would attract no media attention at all? The German press would lap it up! I could invite people who survived the camps to come and give evidence and they could ask why the people who commanded the camps haven't been prosecuted but somebody who calls a concentration camp a concentration camp gets prosecuted.

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Edited by: sjam Feb 20, 09, 15:26 #214

Harry:

Harry this is exactly why I personally believe there should be some distiction made between the terminology used to describe both of these types of Nazi camps and the post-war Polish internment/concentration camps—what ever they might be called.

For example; the principles involved in setting up the Warsaw Rising Museum did some research which clearly showed that the majority of those outside of Poland when asked about the Warsaw Urprising overwhelmingly linked these keywords with the Jewish Ghetto Uprising of 1943 and not the Warsaw Uprising 1944, in fact many had not even heard about the 1944 uprising! So they made the decision to differentiate the two uprisings (over a period of time) by refering to the 1944 Uprising as the 'Warsaw Rising' so there would be a distinct difference in public perception.... and no it wasn't because Norman Davies used it in his book title in case anyone asks:-)

I am not saying you should accept my interpretation nor do I see what you are saying as anti-polish and if you want to call them post-war Polish concentration camps this is fine by me as I understand what your are saying; but arriving at terms of reference that are easliy understood by all is always difficult.

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Feb 20, 09, 16:30 #215

sjam:

Harry this is exactly why I personally believe there should be some distiction made between the terminology used to describe both of these types of Nazi camps and the post-war Polish internment/concentration camps—what ever they might be called.
.....
I am not saying you should accept my interpretation nor do I see what you are saying as anti-polish and if you want to call them post-war Polish concentration camps this is fine by me as I understand what your are saying; but arriving at terms of reference that are easliy understood by all is always difficult.

As Wikipedia notes "The Nazi concentration camps were basically places of mistreatment, starvation, forced labour, and killings. Due to this fact the expression has been, sometimes and erroneously, intended in its most pejorative sense; to avoid this misunderstanding often governments and organizations describe its own facilities using euphemisms such as internment camp, resettlement camp, detention facility, etc, regardless of the actual circumstances of the camp, which can vary a great deal."

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Feb 20, 09, 17:19 #216

Harry:

Can't really argue with who ever wrote that and it sort of illustrates the point I was trying to make.

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Feb 20, 09, 17:19 #217

Harry:

1jola: Harry is spamming again. Jewish posters do that when they find the topic uncomfortable, with the Jewish Gestapo agents and all.

I am not in the slightest bit uncomfortable with discussing Jewish Gestapo agents.

Then why are you not discussing it on a thread that is called "Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto?"

If you want to discuss what you only call "Polish concentration camps"(sic), which you repeatedly "discuss" on many threads, why don't you start your own thread.

Your whole approach to the subject is making you a fool on this forum and I hope you will get widder attention. After all, you depend on Poles for your livelyhood. People are telling you over and over that to call Stalinist communist camps Polish camps is about as accurate as calling the Nazi camps Polish camps. If you insist, you might find yourself in trouble in this country.

Now, start a thread on the topic you want to discuss and go there.

Buh, bye.

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Feb 20, 09, 18:20 #218

1jola:

Then why are you not discussing it on a thread that is called "Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto?"

What would you like to discuss? That some Polish Jews were complete and utter bastards during WWII? Fine. Although it will be a rather short discussion: you'll say "Polish Jews were complete and utter bastards during WWII" and I'll say "Some Polish Jews were complete and utter bastards during WWII". End of discussion.

1jola:

If you want to discuss what you only call "Polish concentration camps"(sic), which you repeatedly "discuss" on many threads, why don't you start your own thread.

Because this thread is to discuss Auschwitz. So let's discuss what happened on the site of Auschwitz after WWII.

1jola:

Your whole approach to the subject is making you a fool on this forum and I hope you will get widder attention. After all, you depend on Poles for your livelyhood. People are telling you over and over that to call Stalinist communist camps Polish camps is about as accurate as clling the Nazi camps Polish camps.

So the Stalinist camps were not run by Poles, were not guarded by Poles, were not managed by Poles and did not exist at the order of a Polish government which was made up of Poles? OK, guess they weren't Polish then. One thing though: why did the camps outlast Stalin?

1jola:

If you insist, you might find yourself in trouble in this country.

You know my name, you know where I live, you know where I drink. If you want to come and give me some trouble, feel very free to do so.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Feb 20, 09, 20:01 #219
I would preffer that you just behaved resonably, Harry.

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Feb 21, 09, 00:37 #220

sjam:

JohnP: Hmmm. Presumably you mean pre-WWII, in which case ALL money going into Germany (not just American) was "funding Auschwitz" if you will.

Afraid not JohnP. USA was still selling Coke-Cola to the Hitler youth (and even advertised in Hitler Youth magazines) until America deaclared was on Germany in 1941 following Pear Harbor. IBM punch-card data collection machines were used by Eichman to record personal details of Jews during the Holocuast.

Ummm....you just agreed with me...
America was not at war with Germany and and commerce with Germany did not cease until after the U.S. declared war. Prior to that, from what I gather, a widely held belief in the U.S. was "not again" after WWI, and "if the Europeans wanted to slaughter each other, let them. We want no part of it." .....many of the other things were not much more than rumors. Which shouldn't surprise us...I heard mentioned on the news a few years ago that Christians and Jews in Iran were being required to put stitching indicative of their faith into their clothing...which to me, sounds uneasily familiar. I've not heard it mentioned again, amidst the praise for Ahmadinejad for "standing up to Bush" or whatever it is they like him for these days.
So saying "oooh the Nazis used ticket counters made by IBM!" is an awful lot like saying Osama Bin Ladin uses flourescent light bulbs made in Poland, or drives a BMW made in Germany. I seriously doubt that card punching machines are sold only after one signs a "no use in death camps" clause.

Seanus:

watch this and you will know what I am talking about. Look at part 4 of 15 for evidence that Prescott Bush was behind the funding

Sean, again, LOTS of money went into Germany from the US prior to the war (which, well, is not surprising...the US had not chosen sides prior to going into the war) so I'm not sure you can convince me that, as implicated, Prescott Bush specifically laid money out for a "camp for working Poles and Jews and others deemed undesirable, to death, and exterminating the rest who cannot work". Otherwise if you are just saying someone sent money to Germany...and well, there's no surprise there.
Just because the British were at war at this point, or Poland, or Russia...Americans wanted no part of it. Apparently even Hitler himself wanted to keep us out of it...but the Japanese ruined that whole idea for him, and dragged the U.S. into the war with what they thought would be a debilitating strike.

sjam:

But you are right pre-war most large multinational companies (from US, UK, France, Holland etc, ) had sales operations or German operating divisions that indirectly or directly funded the Nazi state and its concentration camps in 1930's Germany

Operating a business in a state is quite a bit different than saying one finances a death camp, unless you want to make a REEAAALLLY long stretch. That would be like saying the sale of Coke in Saudi Arabia is somehow funding extremist Islam, or sale of Rolls Royce jet engines to airlines in Pakistan somehow fund their activities.

John P.

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Feb 21, 09, 02:11 #221

Geez, cunning American justifications. Choosing sides, what?? You'd even have contemplated a stint of Nazism?? What did Prescott invest SO MUCH money in? What was his purpose in investing such a vast sum, hope? Hope for what??

The British were NOT at war at this point, the funds arrived well before that. America didn't want a hand in shaping the world order?? Wow, that's a first.

Of course Hitler wanted to keep you guys out, look at how you tipped the balance. Did he want that? Tell me he did and I'll be sure you are knighted within the week. If the US couldn't see what was happening, they were even blinder than dumb Europe.

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Feb 21, 09, 03:05 #222

Harry:

Because this thread is to discuss Auschwitz.

... and ghettos. Which you didn't bother to discuss in any of your posts.

Harry:

So let's discuss what happened on the site of Auschwitz after WWII.

Ummm … it's a museum now?

Don't give me that crap about sub-camps; it's your only excuse to start that aggressive verbal assault. First poster didn't ask about after the war period.

Seriously, Harry. You came here to provoke. Clear and simple. Not to discuss anything. Looks like you are paid for each time you manage to say "polish concentration camp". You are just Poland basher and loving it.

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Feb 21, 09, 03:08 #223

Seanus:

Geez, cunning American justifications.

funny that thing called "truth"...

Seanus:

Choosing sides, what?? You'd even have contemplated a stint of Nazism??

While many lambast Americans for not knowing enough European history, perhaps the same could be said about Europeans and American history. The U.S. was taking an isolationist stance and the largely popular views were to remain neutral and out of the war. Unfortunately a few torpedo incidents by the Germans started to test this neutral mentality, then when the Japanese (in hind sight, foolishly) decided to bomb Pearl Harbor, alliances were already in place which made U.S. entry in the war inevitable. As for horrors under the Germans (camps, for instance) many simply refused to believe such a charismatic leader as Hitler would be having such evil things carried out. America was not alone in this, by the way.

Seanus:

What did Prescott invest SO MUCH money in? What was his purpose in investing such a vast sum, hope? Hope for what??

I cannot watch the video you referred to, but unless he was investing specifically in death camps somehow (????) it is more likely that like many even today who try to make money, he saw Germany on the rise and as a potential investment that would make him or his interests a lot of money. Remember that after WWI an entire wheelbarrow of Deutschmarks would barely buy a loaf of bread...but Germany had started to turn around, and was actually starting to become a world power again. I doubt he invested in concentration camps at all, but wouldn't be surprised if he simply invested in a growing economy. I also doubt he was alone in this. If he DID specifically invest in camps (which many did not even believe existed, remember...there was no "You tube" then) then of course that was deplorable. I simply doubt it.

Seanus:

The British were NOT at war at this point, the funds arrived well before that. America didn't want a hand in shaping the world order?? Wow, that's a first.

If the funds arrived well before the British were involved, then again, it is likely nobody was funding "camps". I would also point out that the US was not a superpower at this point. It had the potential to become one, but simply was not. That did not happen until after WWII, realistically. Prior to this it was primarily a regional power. Not to say there was no interest in shaping world order...but that isn't what I said, either. I simply said most wanted no part of the war in Europe and while some dreaded it like an oncoming train, the mindset was, again, if the Europeans want to kill each other, that's their business... it just turns out that isn't how things worked out. It's also why the U.S. did not join until 1941, well into the war for other countries.

Seanus:

If the US couldn't see what was happening, they were even blinder than dumb Europe.

I think they saw, but again, the mentality was, "not our fight". Remember, WWI was supposed to be "the war to end all wars". For crying out loud, when the US entered the war many of her implements were badly outdone by German implements, and probably she would have had even less if it were not for contracts making things for British forces...
The Thompson submachine gun, for instance...and later, Mustang fighters (which the US originally didn't want to go for) being redesignated the P-51 for US forces...had originally all been made for UK forces....by Americans. Americans? were flying biplanes at the beginning of the war. Some superpower. Our submarines were commanded by 21 year old "old men" and most often, did not come back...our tanks might as well have been cardboard boxes with a BB gun, compared to the German tanks of the time...
So yes. The U.S. really thought it would be able to sit the thing out. Political will was to do just that.

John P.

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Feb 21, 09, 03:25 #224

You know John, I've had a Polish evening (too many drinks, LOL), so I'm gonna do the right thing and just say that America has profited from war too much for it to be passive. American intervention in WWII was a must. As you said, it became a superpower and used Vietnam to generate sick profits. It could ill afford to "sit things out" given the prevailing political climate.

Surely as early as Jan or Feb 1940, you could see what the Nazis were doing? Maybe you calculated that British and French resistance would last as long as 1941. This was a world issue, not a European issue. The Jews made it that way. Or do you consider Jews to be an exclusively European issue?

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Edited by: Trevek Feb 21, 09, 16:59 #225

sjam:

Afraid not JohnP. USA was still selling Coke-Cola to the Hitler youth (and even advertised in Hitler Youth magazines) until America deaclared was on Germany in 1941

Errm, wasn't Fanta actually a branch of Coca-Cola?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanta

I believe it kept trading under that name throughout nthe war and post-war the manager handed all the profits to CC.

http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/fanta.asp

szkotja2007Threads: 38 Posts: 2,543 Joined: Dec 29, 06 ♂	Feb 21, 09, 19:20 #226
Of course both the American and the British governments covertly supported Hitler and fascism in the Spanish Civil War. Previous thread Of course not all were blind..... Abe Lincoln Brigade

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Feb 22, 09, 14:58 #227

JohnP:

That would be like saying the sale of Coke in Saudi Arabia is somehow funding extremist Islam, or sale of Rolls Royce jet engines to airlines in Pakistan somehow fund their activities.

Mulit-national entities pay local taxes. So in your example if the corporate taxes from selling Coke in Saudi Arabia are used in part by the Saudi Regime to support extremist Islam then I would say yes selling Coke in Saudi Arabia is funding extremism. Just as selling Coke to the Nazis was supporting the Nazis through corporate taxation did as did IBM's selling of data entry systems support it through export sales of goods.

If selling products did not support terrorism then why does/did the US of recent years have an embargo on certain products that cannot be exported to some countries if these countries are deemed to have links with terrorism etc?

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Feb 27, 09, 15:45 #228

Harry:

...at the order of a Polish government which was made up of Poles? OK, guess they weren't Polish then. One thing though: why did the camps outlast Stalin?

Yes the 'communist' Polish government ran them even though only a small percentage of Poles were communists (Is this where I should add that a much higher percentage of Jews were communist?). As to why the camps did "outlast Stalin" um, this is one of those 'duh' answers; it's because the Soviet Union outlasted Stalin. The Russians were still there. Ever hear of the Warsaw Pact?

You seem to have a blind spot when it comes to the whole picture.

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Mar 3, 09, 16:57 #229

Reuters: March 1, 2009

Poland formally asked the European Union for help in maintaining the former Nazi death camp at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

Prime Minister Donald Tusk wrote a letter to leaders of fellow E.U. member states asking for the creation of a special fund to help carry out much-needed repair and restoration at the camp, Polish media said.

"Saving Auschwitz-Birkenau means saving the memory of millions who suffered and were bestially murdered," Reuters reported Tusk as saying. "It is the responsibility and duty of entire Europe."

The letter was dated Feb. 10 but not made public until now, according to Reuters.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Mar 3, 09, 17:11 #230
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3678583,00.html Germany will give 1 million euros for badly needed restoration work at the Auschwitz death camp museum in neighboring Poland, where more than one million Jews perished during World War Two.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Mar 3, 09, 17:14 #231
Personaly i'd be content to leave it to rot, its just a waste of space;)

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Mar 4, 09, 10:13 #232
Bratwurst Boy: Germany will give 1 million euros for badly needed restoration work at the Auschwitz death camp museum in neighboring Poland, where more than one million Jews perished during World War Two Since only Jews perished there, it is sort of a Jewish cemetary. One would think Israel would be concerned and help maintain it.

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Mar 4, 09, 11:40 #233

Bratwurst Boy:

Germany will give 1 million euros for badly needed restoration work at the Auschwitz death camp museum in neighboring Poland, where more than one million Jews perished during World War Two.

The ironies of history... built by Poles (as an army barracks), extended by Germans, (partly) destroyed by inmates and (partly) dismantled by Germans, rebuilt by Poles (as a museum) and now refurbished/restored by Germans.

1jola:

Since only Jews perished there, it is sort of a Jewish cemetary. One would think Israel would be concerned and help maintain it.

What about the Poles who were first housed there, the Gypsies et al? Anyway, I thought Israel was more into collecting Jewish items, like the Bruno Schulz murals. Maybe they could transport the whole camp over there.

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09 ♂	Mar 4, 09, 12:10 #234
Trevek: 1jola: Since only Jews perished there, it is sort of a Jewish cemetary. One would think Israel would be concerned and help maintain it. What about the Poles who were first housed there, the Gypsies et al? Maybe 1jola is a hapless victim of Jewish propaganda that only Jews died there or maybe was just an antisemitc retort???

Wroclaw Boy	Mar 4, 09, 12:37 #235
1jola: Since only Jews perished there, it is sort of a Jewish cemetary. Only Jews perished ther you must be joking. 1jola: One would think Israel would be concerned and help maintain it. If the Jews put money in i wouldnt be surprised if they start charging entry fees.

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂	Mar 4, 09, 15:54 #236
sjam: Maybe 1jola is a hapless victim of Jewish propaganda that only Jews died there or maybe was just an antisemitc retort??? No, he's just repeating what he was taught when he was young. Remember that 1Jola is really Jewish and so slips up occasionally in his attempts to act like an anti-semitic Pole.

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Edited by: 1jola Mar 4, 09, 17:58 #237

Trevek:

Maybe you are not familiar with this story.

"...foreign help still constitutes only 1-3% of the museum's annual $10m budget - barely enough to cover day-to-day operations, including paying the museum's 250 staff, let alone conservation work.

This falls far short of the $100m the museum says it needs to carry out vital tasks, such as preserving crumbling barracks, creating a new exhibition and building specialised storage facilities.

"The international community has not done enough," said 92-year-old Holocaust survivor and treasurer of the Auschwitz Museum budget committee, Kalman Sultanik.

"Germany in particular has not done enough. Whatever Germany does is not enough - not for the survivors, definitely not for Auschwitz."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7800397.stm

sjam:

Maybe 1jola is a hapless victim of Jewish propaganda that only Jews died there or maybe was just an antisemitc retort???

The Ynet article only mentioned Jews. Is it propaganda? No, it is a lie.

Wroclaw Boy:

Only Jews perished ther you must be joking.

Did you read the article?

Wroclaw Boy:

If the Jews put money in i wouldnt be surprised if they start charging entry fees.

The Jews don't run museums in Poland.

Harry:

sjam:
Maybe 1jola is a hapless victim of Jewish propaganda that only Jews died there or maybe was just an antisemitc retort???
No, he's just repeating what he was taught when he was young.

What was I taught when I was young, genius?

Harry:

Remember that 1Jola is really Jewish and so slips up occasionally in his attempts to act like an anti-semitic Pole.

Keep up pissing me off.

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Edited by: Harry Mar 4, 09, 18:10 #238

1jola:

The Jews don't run museums in Poland.

Yes they do actually. I can think of two in Warsaw alone.

1jola:

What was I taught when I was young, genius?

All about the holocaust, but from the Jewish perspective. I imagine that as Jewish Poles, your parents had quite fixed ideas about the events and that after they were forced out of Poland in the late 1960s those views hardened.

1jola:

Keep up pissing me off.

There really is no need for you to get angry about people knowing your ethnic origins. I'm sure that if you really didn't want people to know, you wouldn't have posted your origins here for all to see.

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Mar 4, 09, 18:30 #239

Harry:

I imagine that as Jewish Poles, your parents had quite fixed ideas about the events

What would be those fixed ideas?

Harry:

In fact I did post my origins. I posted that I am a Pole and a Roman Catholic.

You, on the other hand posted that you claim no nalitionality. Truthfully, you are the first person I have heard to say something ridiculous like that in all my life.

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Mar 4, 09, 18:37 #240

1jola:

In fact I did post my origins. I posted that I am a Pole and a Roman Catholic.

Sorry but you can not be either of those things. Your yourself said that only Jews were able to escape communism and get a free ride to the west. You and your parents escaped to the west, therefore you must be Jewish and not Roman Catholic. And you yourself said that a Jew can not be a Pole, so you can not be a Pole.

1jola:

You, on the other hand posted that you claim no nalitionality. Truthfully, you are the first person I have heard to say something ridiculous like that in all my life.

I think I said that I wouldn't describe myself as being of any nationality. I claim different nationalities when they suit me (e.g. using a European citizenship when in the EU). And truthfully, wouldn't the world be a better place if everybody was a lot less nationalistic and a lot more humanistic?