Why is the Battle of Grunwald celebrated more than the Battle of Lubiszewo?

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Edited by: PolskiMoc Jul 4, 11, 16:00 #1

the Battle of Lubiszewo was really a much more impressive Polish victory. Poland did not have Lithuania also involved. Poles were massively outnumbedred by Germans.

Also the Battle of Lubiszewo happened in 1577 which to me is a better date than 1410 as it is a more recent date.

The Danzig (Gdańsk) army, led by the German commander Johann Winkelbruch (Hans Winckelbruch or Winckelburg von Kölln), was about 7,000–12,000 strong (including mercenaries, among them a Scottish regiment[3]), but with less than 1,000 cavalry. The Danzig army was utterly defeated by the army of Jan Zborowski (of about 2,000 men, half of them cavalry).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lubiszewo

Poles only had 88 killed, 100 wounded while Germans had 4,420 killed, 5,000 captured.

Which is one of the most impressive Polish battles fo all time along with Klushino.

That is a much better ratio. With alot fewer Poles dying & a much higher of Germans being slaughtered than in grunwald.

I guess Grunwald generally has more significance because it was a larger battle? Because Poles inflicted more damage? Such as how Poles did alot of Damage to the the Teutons in general

According to different sources, some 200 or 400 brothers of the Order were killed, including much of the Teutonic leadership – Grand Master Ulrich von Jungingen, Grand Marshal Friedrich von Wallenrode, Grand Komtur Kuno von Lichtenstein, Grand Treasurer Thomas von Merheim, Marshal of Supply Forces Albrecht von Schwartzburg, and ten of the komturs.[66] Markward von Salzbach, Komtur of Brandenburg (Ushakovo), and Heinrich Schaumburg, voigt of Sambia, were executed by order of Vytautas after the battle.[65] The bodies of von Jungingen and other high-ranking officials were transported to Marienburg Castle for burial on 19 July

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grunwald

legendThreads: 9 Posts: 819 Joined: Apr 23, 11 ♂	Jul 4, 11, 18:26 #2
Didnt know about this particular battle. Perhaps Grunwald is easier to pronounce than Lubiszewo (might be a slight reason).

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	Jul 4, 11, 18:53 #3
Maybe the battle is not thought of as remarkable because it actually was a kind of civil war that the battle put an and to (actually it was Gdańsk/Danzig rebellion) - and well the overwhelming part of the Danzig forces were some kind of militia so even when the losses ratio is impressive you had perhaps plenty of such battles with ill trained and equiped peasant or burgher rebellions in the past

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Edited by: pawian Jul 4, 11, 18:55 #4

PolskiMoc:

the Battle of Lubiszewo was really a much more impressive Polish victory. Poland did not have Lithuania also involved. Poles were massively outnumbedred by Germans.

Also the Battle of Lubiszewo happened in 1577 which to me is a better date than 1410 as it is a more recent date.

Strange, I have never heard of this battle. It isn`t taught in Polish history classes. Thanks for info.

PolskiMoc:

Which is one of the most impressive Polish battles fo all time along with Klushino.

Which is much more popular and known in Poland.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Edited by: JonnyM Jul 4, 11, 19:00 #5
PolskiMoc: a much higher of Germans being slaughtered 1. Do you think that's good? 2. Do you realise it was more a civil conflict than a war between 'Poland' aad 'Germany' which existed in very different forms than we would recognise now? 3. Have you visited the site of either battle? Or Poland at all?

PalivecThreads: - Posts: 333 Joined: Apr 22, 11 ♂	Jul 4, 11, 19:01 #6
So, when Gdansk fought against Poland it was a German city, otherwise it was Polish? LOL! :D

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Jul 4, 11, 20:56 #7
The reason is due to that being a rebellion, by 1577 Poland was firmyl entrenched as an european superpower, Grunwald is where polish ascension to european power started however. pawian: Strange, I have never heard of this battle. It isn`t taught in Polish history classes. Thanks for info. Polish history passionate eh?

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	Jul 4, 11, 20:58 #8
Palivec: So, when Gdansk fought against Poland it was a German city, otherwise it was Polish? LOL! :D It was also a free city, neither Polish nor German. Depends what dates you're looking at. While the first stronghold was established by Poles, the city was bounced back and forth over the last 1000 years. Most of the time it enjoyed a degree of independence.

PalivecThreads: - Posts: 333 Joined: Apr 22, 11 ♂	Jul 4, 11, 21:16 #9
z_darius: It was also a free city, neither Polish nor German. You know this, and I know this, but obviously not the starter of this thread. ;)

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Jul 4, 11, 23:22 #10

z_darius:

It was also a free city

Nope, it was a vassaldom.

z_darius:

Depends what dates you're looking at.

Gdańsk was a "free city" only during the 1919-39 period, otherwise it was a polish vassaldom with far reaching authonomy.

it could not conduct foreign policy for example.

Palivec:

You know this, and I know this, but obviously not the starter of this thread. ;)

At the time it was indeed a manner of civil war, OP is correct.

SemsemThreads: 18 Posts: 25 Joined: Dec 28, 09 ♂	Jul 18, 11, 03:44 #11
Wouldn't it also be since Grunwald halted the Tuetons, whom if had won would have probably continued and conquered Western Europe? At least...that's what I was taught, and I find it interesting how many times Poland saved the rest of Europe, but don't even get an honorable mention in history classes in most nations.

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 ♂ [Moderator]	Jul 18, 11, 03:53 #12
Why is the Battle of Grunwald celebrated more than the Battle of Lubiszewo? it was fought again this weekend. it'll probably be on youtube.

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Jul 18, 11, 07:22 #13

Semsem:

Wouldn't it also be since Grunwald halted the Tuetons, whom if had won would have probably continued and conquered Western Europe? At least...that's what I was taught, and I find it interesting how many times Poland saved the rest of Europe, but don't even get an honorable mention in history classes in most nations.

Maybe you should forget your Commie education and read some modern books instead? Because... both is bollocks.

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Jul 24, 11, 00:21 #14

Maybe you should forget your Commie education and read some modern books instead? Because... both is bollocks.

How do you figure both is "bollocks" (an English term which I don't really know exactly)?

The Battle of Grunwald killed off the grand master of the time, and many of the other heads of the order. They were unable to truly recover from then, and thus slowly declined as history shows us. The Knights, had they been victorious, would have most likely spread and continued to conquer other vast parts (if not all) of Western Europe.

And, with regards to Education, it is NOT taught in ANY schools in America or Canada. It might be taught in some nations of Europe, but I'd be willing to bet that it isn't taught in that many.

Or again, am I wrong?

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,395 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Jul 24, 11, 00:27 #15
Or again, am I wrong? No, you aren`t. You only mistook Knights with bolsheviks, but that was a slight mistake, nothing serious.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Jul 24, 11, 18:16 #16
Maybe you should forget your Commie education and read some modern books instead? Because... both is bollocks. As always an anti-polish troll aint you Palivec?

PalivecThreads: - Posts: 333 Joined: Apr 22, 11 ♂	Jul 24, 11, 18:52 #17
As always an anti-polish troll aint you Palivec? Claiming that the Teutonic Order would have conquered Western Europe and Poland therefore saved it is as stupid as claiming France would have conquered Eastern Europe and the HRE saved it.

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Jul 24, 11, 21:30 #18

Claiming that the Teutonic Order would have conquered Western Europe and Poland therefore saved it is as stupid as claiming France would have conquered Eastern Europe and the HRE saved it.

If you knew anything about history you'd know that TO was the richest and most powerfull state in Europe, its standing army was 12.000 strong, no country, not even HRE could boast such a force, Poland was the only kingdom with enough and modern enough troops to provide equal opposition so yeah TO would have conquered everything all the way to Moscow, even their weak proxies the Livonians were capable of providing a serious threat (Lake Peipus) so indeed Poland saved everything east of its border from the medieval version of the Nazis.

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Jul 24, 11, 21:57 #19

so indeed Poland saved everything east of its border from the medieval version of the Nazis.

And what were the intentions of the Teutons? In what way RP was better than them? Both were religious fanatics anyhow and for their pseudo-Christianity erazed ancient cultures in the Eastern regions just like the Conquistadors in the South America. If there was no Grunwald and the two just kept pissing each other off, we might have enjoyed the spots of the preserved antiquity today. I think this was one of the worst sides of Christianity, if it can be called as such.

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Edited by: Sokrates Jul 24, 11, 22:17 #20

And what were the intentions of the Teutons

Conquer, enslave, exterminate which they did, Pomorania lost more than 50% of its population, more than 90% of its urban population, they were more methodical than Chyngis Khan.

In what way RP was better than them?

RP did not exterminate Ukraine.

and for their pseudo-Christianity erazed ancient cultures in the Eastern regions just like the Conquistadors in the South America.

What culture did Poland erase? Ukraine was a barbaric wasteland, depopulated in the wake of the Mongol invasions and domestic infighting, virtually the only city in the entire Ukraine was Kiev.

If there was no Grunwald and the two just kept pissing each other off, we might have enjoyed the spots of the preserved antiquity today. I think this was one of the worst sides of Christianity, if it can be called as such.

If there was no Grunwald the Teutons would eventually conquer Lithuania, besiege Poland from three sides and destroy it, then they would have another go at Novgorod, this time with and an army ten or twenty times larger and do what they always did, burn the city and kill off all its inhabitants (they did it to Poles in Gdańsk and in many other cities), then they would do the sam to Kiev and then to Moscow.

Having exterminated all the urban hubs of Ruthenia they'd be masters of the entire Eastern Europe as far as Moscow.

IF you read a bit of history of Poland and its satelites as well as of Livonia you'd know that Teutonic Order was unusual in the fact that it exterminated as well as conquered.

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Jul 25, 11, 01:06 #21

Conquer, enslave, exterminate which they did

In 1230, following the Golden Bull of Rimini, Grand Master Hermann von Salza and Duke Konrad I of Masovia launched the Prussian Crusade, a joint invasion of Prussia intended to Christianise the Baltic Old Prussians.

Was the duke Konrad a Teuton?

RP did not exterminate Ukraine

It never could, but it ruined with its "Christenizing" brutalities the cultures of the Baltic tribes.

barbaric wasteland

It is how I see your brain sometimes. I just want to add nuclear to it.

If there was no Grunwald the Teutons would eventually conquer Lithuania, besiege Poland from three sides and destroy it, then they would have another go at Novgorod, this time with and an army ten or twenty times larger and do what they always did, burn the city and kill off all its inhabitants (they did it to Poles in Gdańsk and in many other cities), then they would do the sam to Kiev and then to Moscow.

It is funny, but instead of them that what exacly happened after Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth won the battle. Sokrates, it doesn't matter what language you speak, if one is a religious fanatic with brutal mindset the consequences for the region would be the same. And they were. There was the siege of Kyiv, Moscow, destruction of the Lithuanian ancient culture, burning of cities and extermination of people, latinization of the "barbaric wastelands" as a diligent Polish student of history like you would call it.

IF you read a bit of history of Poland

I read history as a whole written by as much as possible non-interested in the outcome people. You do the opposite and your knowledge is highly skewed and boring by presenting the same one-sided approach.

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Jul 25, 11, 10:48 #22

If you knew anything about history you'd know that TO was the richest and most powerfull state in Europe, its standing army was 12.000 strong, no country, not even HRE could boast such a force, Poland was the only kingdom with enough and modern enough troops to provide equal opposition so yeah TO would have conquered everything all the way to Moscow, even their weak proxies the Livonians were capable of providing a serious threat (Lake Peipus) so indeed Poland saved everything east of its border from the medieval version of the Nazis.

LOL! Really.
The knights of the TO were crusaders who acted on behalf of the pope and HRE against heathens. Poles were no heathens, but Lithuanians were, that's why they fought against them. The TO just turned against Poland when Lithuania and Poland were united and the TO faced a far more powerful enemy in a good strategic position which wanted to retake former Polish land, which the TO occupied after the knights helped Poland, but Poland didn't pay the bills.
The story is a bit more complicated than "evil proto-Nazis want to destroy peaceful Poland".

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Edited by: Moderator Jul 25, 11, 11:45 #23

The knights of the TO were crusaders who acted on behalf of the pope and HRE against heathens.

Novgorodians were Christian, the same goes for Poles, your point being?

The TO just turned against Poland when Lithuania and Poland were united and the TO faced a far more powerful enemy in a good strategic position which wanted to retake former Polish land

TO was fighting wars of agression against Poland for over a century by then.

The story is a bit more complicated than "evil proto-Nazis want to destroy peaceful Poland".

Nope its actually just that, Teutonic Knights came and started exterminating Christian and Pagan alike to carve out a country for themselves.

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