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BBC - Center for Military Studies - Gerald Kochan


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mattm1970Threads: 4
Posts: 18
Joined: Aug 1, 08 ♂ 		 Jul 21, 10, 14:08    #1
I was contacted last night by a BBC TV reporter regarding the sale of WW2 Polish Memorabilia - specifically in relation to my forum posts about the issues with my Grandfather ( 315 and 307 Squadrons PAF) and the loss of his WW2 PAF Log Book to the Center for Military Studies in Greenville Texas .

I have been contacted by families from The UK , Canada and Europe on the issue and was wondering if anybody else had any stories / information regards this area ? Please feel free to contact me and I will pass on any further information about this emotive issue to him.
mattm1970Threads: 4
Posts: 18
Joined: Aug 1, 08 ♂ 		 Aug 12, 10, 10:04    #2
Not Great News


Mr. McCarthy, I regret that I have no information to help you.
I am not familiar with The Center of (for) Military Studies or the name Gerald Kochan. I have checked the membership database of Texas Association of Museums. There is no record of the center .


Executive Director
Texas Association of Museums
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Aug 12, 10, 17:41    #3
Might this be of use?

Domain ID:D149668115-LROR
Domain Name:CENTERFORMILITARYSTUDIES.ORG
Created On:06-Nov-2007 14:30:17 UTC
Last Updated On:17-Oct-2009 09:20:27 UTC
Expiration Date:06-Nov-2010 14:30:17 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:Melbourne IT, Ltd (R52-LROR)
Status:OK
Registrant ID:D119435727756821
Registrant Name:Collin Davis
Registrant Organization:Private Registration US
Registrant Street1:PO Box 61359
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Sunnyvale
Registrant State/Province:CA
Registrant Postal Code:94088
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.5105952002
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
WitkowskiThreads: -
Posts: 1
Joined: Oct 20, 10 ♀ 		 Oct 20, 10, 16:46    #4
My father Jozef G P Witkowski met Gerald Kochan in 1992 in Warsaw. He lived in Trentham N Staffs UK. He had flown with 308 Squadron. I am Wanda one of his 2 daughters, Ana Jozefina is my sister, and we lost Dad on the 16th August after he'd an unsuccessful struggle to recover his health. He was 87. We miss him very much as do his many many friends.
I am sorting through his memorabilia to put together a folder for each grandchild, my son wrote a short biography in 1997.
I know that he sent some of his belongings to your museum......I would just like confirmation so that the grandchildren will know where they can visit to see his things that he wasn't able to copy, like for instance, his uniform.
I really look forward to hearing from someone, hoping that I have furnished you with enough information to make a connection.
warszawskiThreads: 60
Posts: 2,387
Joined: May 21, 10 ♂ 		 Oct 20, 10, 19:15    #5
http://www.dallas.pl/viewtopic.php?p=2954&sid=53074c650e58fe8546cdbfce 9eef183a
pgtxThreads: 49
Posts: 6,327
Joined: Feb 14, 09  Gold Member MEMBER ♀ 		 Oct 20, 10, 19:29    #6
warszawski:
http://www.dallas.pl/viewtopic.php?p=2954&sid=53074c650e58fe8546cdbfc e 9eef183a

btw, thanks for the forum link... useful... ;)
warszawskiThreads: 60
Posts: 2,387
Joined: May 21, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: warszawski  Oct 20, 10, 19:52    #7
pgtx:
btw, thanks for the forum link... useful... ;)


It is always difficult to know which side of the story is fact, but if Gerald Kochan intentionally tricked FLT Tarkowski a decorated war hero, into falsely parting with his Pilots log book, then that is wrong. The main questions I have here, to what purposes did FLT Tarkowski believe his pilots log book was being used for, when he gave it to Gerald kochan, where is the pilots log book now, and how is it being used to make more people aware of the bravery of the Polish pilots in WW2.
convexThreads: 46
Posts: 7,185
Joined: Nov 25, 09  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Oct 20, 10, 19:56    #8
warszawski:
The main questions I have here, to what purposes did FLT Tarkowski believe his pilots log book was being used for, when he gave it to Gerald kochan, where is the pilots log book now, and how is it being used to make more people aware of the bravery of the Polish pilots in WW2.

PS, my logbook might as well be a child. It lives with me, travels with me, and I would not part with it unless I thought it would contribute to some greater good.
mattm1970Threads: 4
Posts: 18
Joined: Aug 1, 08 ♂ 		 Nov 30, 10, 15:50    #9
Just to make sure you are aware that there is NO physical " Center For Military Studies " in Texas - Mr Kochan has finally admited this in August 2010.

The Address given for Greenville Texas is a PO box at a local Post Office and the listed "Office Number" is actually his home number in Rockwall Texas.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Nov 30, 10, 16:41    #10
mattm1970:
Just to make sure you are aware that there is NO physical " Center For Military Studies " in Texas - Mr Kochan has finally admited this in August 2010.


So - essentially the things in question have been sold to a private collector?

Must admit, I'm not sure what the problem is.
WitoldThreads: -
Posts: 2
Joined: Dec 12, 10 ♂ 		 Dec 12, 10, 00:55    #11
We had a very similar experience with this man.
WroclawThreads: 77
Posts: 7,404
Joined: Apr 1, 06  Pictures: 3 ♂ [Moderator] 		 Dec 12, 10, 00:56    #12
Witold:
We had a very similar experience with this man.


Please, expand.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Dec 12, 10, 01:17    #13
Witold:
We had a very similar experience with this man.


What kind of experience?

Were the things sold, legally, to a private collector?

If so, I'm not sure what the issue is.
WitoldThreads: -
Posts: 2
Joined: Dec 12, 10 ♂ 		 Dec 12, 10, 23:21    #14
The issue is that he lied about where the objects were for. He said they would be in a museum sponsored by the US Army. There does not appear to be a physical museum. As part of the verbal agreement he said he would send us bound copies of all the documents he took. Despite correspondence he has not done this.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: delphiandomine  Dec 12, 10, 23:29    #15
Witold:
The issue is that he lied about where the objects were for. He said they would be in a museum sponsored by the US Army. There does not appear to be a physical museum. As part of the verbal agreement he said he would send us bound copies of all the documents he took. Despite correspondence he has not done this.


Business is business. If the items were sold on the basis of verbal agreements - then - in most jurisdictions, the agreement is worth the paper that it's written on.

(for what it's worth, I'd just report the items as stolen)
warszawskiThreads: 60
Posts: 2,387
Joined: May 21, 10 ♂ 		 Dec 14, 10, 08:33    #16
delphiandomine:
If the items were sold on the basis of verbal agreements - then - in most jurisdictions, the agreement is worth the paper that it's written on.


In PL as well, cases in PL have been won on the basis of a verbal agreement, although most Poles believe if there is no contract, it is outside the law, the times are changing.
isthatu2Threads: 13
Posts: 5,225
Joined: Apr 3, 08 ♂ 		 Dec 26, 10, 21:13    #17
Why are Poles,living in Britain selling family history to a Yank and then complaining they never see the stuff again? Isnt that a bit of a no brainer?
In short there are honourable enough collectors of mil history(i ended up leaving some of the stuff Id bought on a buying trip with a local family because it meant something to them) but its also a trade full of bandits,didnt a bunch of polish lads nick the arbiet mach frei sign?
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Dec 26, 10, 21:17    #18
isthatu2:
Why are Poles,living in Britain selling family history to a Yank and then complaining they never see the stuff again? Isnt that a bit of a no brainer?


That's what I'm wondering - surely it's pretty damn obvious that collectors, in general, will stash the stuff away rather than display it?
isthatu2Threads: 13
Posts: 5,225
Joined: Apr 3, 08 ♂ 		 Dec 26, 10, 21:57    #19
well,I didnt,most of my stuff has been widely displayed but...most collectors,your right,will stash the stuff in an attic or spare room.
And if you think passing it on to a museum will get it displayed,forget it,most museums have a warehouse like the one at the end of indiana jones!
Its not that you havent got my sympathies,my own family are trying to trace some log books to RAF fighter pilots too,i hold out zero hope but hey,who knows.
mattm1970Threads: 4
Posts: 18
Joined: Aug 1, 08 ♂ 		 Jan 7, 11, 12:06    #20
Why are Poles,living in Britain selling family history to a Yank ? isthatu2:

Gerald Kochan is an American of Polish decent , he speaks Polish and clearly has rehearsed his sales approach - those that have sold to him are very elderly Poles or the immediate relatives of WW2 Veterans who have recently passed away.

There are suggestions that family members may well not be interested in the items sold to Kochan - but you have to think that much of this stuff has been hidden away in attics for possibly 50 or 60 years - Poles are great hoarders - so many people may not be aware it even exists. Once somebody passes away the grieving can easily have no idea what they actually posses both personally and historically.

In my Grandfathers case he was a fantastic raconteur to the end (even when his immediate memory had faded he was able to repeat his accounts of his battles in 1940s as if it were yesterday ) - I loved the stories of his time in The War and his Post War Adventures - but not once did he bring out his WW2 effects . As a family we are lost as to why a man who hoarded such things as sugar and newspapers until his death would allow his most important historical item to fall into the hands of a US based collector - this is a question that we have yet to receive an answer to and baffles and upsets us to this day.

The Museums and Veteran Associations here in The UK have not actively targeted those surviving members of The Polish Armed Forces or their families to obtain their effects whereas Kochan has made direct approaches - he has the upper hand over UK based institutions in that he is proactive in his attempts to expand his collection in The USA.

It is only by publically raising the issue of this situation that we can ensure that the memorabilia of those that came to this country with nothing , fought with unquestionable bravery and ended up exiles in a foreign country stays in the place that they eventually made home and where their families now are based.

The end of The Cold War and the fall of The Berlin Wall have enabled History to be revisited and rewritten rightly acknowledging the role played by The Polish Armed Forces in WW2 without fear of upsetting the feelings of The Russians.The surviving members of those armed forces and their families have an important story to tell and we need to honour their contribution and memory by ensuring that their story is publicised here in The UK - the land that they helped save.

I strongly believe that a private collection is not the place for these items regardless of which side of The Atlantic that collector resides.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 7, 11, 12:29    #21
mattm1970:
this is a question that we have yet to receive an answer to and baffles and upsets us to this day.

It rather seems that you have certainly had an answer to that question: "FLT Tarkowski offered the logbook to me [Kochan] in hopes of aiding my efforts to research and to promote the WW2 history of the Poles." http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=22042 Pity that you don't like the answer.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 7, 11, 13:37    #22
So - McCarthy - why haven't you provided Gerald with proof of his dementia and the proof that you're acting as executor of his estate?

Sounds very much to me like someone is mad that his grandfather sold something that he wanted.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 7, 11, 13:38    #23
delphiandomine:
Sounds very much to me like someone is mad that his grandfather sold something that he wanted.

That is exactly what it sounds like to me too.
alexw68 Edited by: alexw68  Jan 7, 11, 13:44    #24
delphiandomine:
So - McCarthy - why haven't you provided Gerald with proof of his dementia and the proof that you're acting as executor of his estate?

Proof of dementia not required. It's a moral, rather than legal standpoint. What is not only sad, but an unjustifiable side-effect of unregulated markets (be they financial or in traded goods) is a consistent failure by what we will have to call lesser-educated people to act in their own best interests where the value of property (moving or otherwise) is concerned.

Lots of people (several of whom I know) got very rich - and unbelievably arrogant - on this kind of historical parasitism. Should our admiration of their business acumen be entirely without reservation?
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 7, 11, 13:48    #25
alexw68:
Proof of dementia not required. It's a moral, rather than legal standpoint. What is not only sad, but an unjustifiable side-effect of unregulated markets (be they financial or in traded goods) is a consistent failure by what we will have to call lesser-educated people to act in their own best interests where the value of property (moving or otherwise) is concerned.


Indeed - but we shouldn't assume that the grandfather was lesser-educated either. He may simply have seen the money on offer (what's such a logbook worth?) and decided that it was easy money - money for him to enjoy in his old age.

He may even have felt that he was getting money for old rope, as they say.

alexw68:
Lots of people (several of whom I know) got very rich - and unbelievably arrogant - on this kind of historical parasitism. Should our admiration of their business acumen be entirely without reservation?


Depends entirely on how they went about it, surely?
mattm1970Threads: 4
Posts: 18
Joined: Aug 1, 08 ♂ 		 Jan 7, 11, 14:07    #26
Yes I have provided proof of my position Trustee of the Estate - I did this months ago directly to his solicitor. My Mother , the Executor of the Estate is in protracted discussions with The UK based lawyers that represent Mr Kochan - these talks are continuing.

My post today was merely a continuation of the direction of this post ( by others) about items going abroad - I mention Gerald Kochan as he is the person our family has encountered - there are plenty of other characters out there who have collected items that in an ideal world would stay within the family or alternatively an appropriate museum.

And yes I am "mad" that a complete stranger appeared at the house of my elderly grandfather ( six months away from death ) and left in possession of the most important piece of our family history .That same stranger then bluntly refused point blank to my mothers appeal to repurchase the item back in 2006 ( when she first discovered it was not with all the other personal items that he left HER )

The Grandfather I knew would not have sold it to anybody as he was so insistent on everything staying within the family - so snide comments from others in this forum add nothing to the real debate .

We are not the only family in this position - since my first post I have been contacted by over ten other families both here and abroad - all of whom must just be a bit "mad that his grandfather sold something that he wanted " ( delphiandomine / Harry )
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 7, 11, 15:13    #27
mattm1970:
The Grandfather I knew would not have sold it to anybody as he was so insistent on everything staying within the family

Strange you phrase it like that, given that apparently your grandfather wanted to give the thing away and it was only when Mr Kochan insisted that the item was exchanged for money.
mattm1970Threads: 4
Posts: 18
Joined: Aug 1, 08 ♂ 		 Jan 7, 11, 15:43    #28
My Grandfather was a millionaire - he didn't need the money.

The only person who insists that my Grandfather - who was ill and six months away from his death - wanted to give the Log Book away is the complete stranger who turned up at his secluded house in England and somehow is now in possession of the item.

My Grandmother was adamant that she pleaded with him not to part with the item and despite this he parted with the Log Book - an action that we as a family find upsetting
and baffling.

Hence our confusion as to how or why a person unknown to any family member now has the item in his private collection thousands of miles away from the County he made his home.

I'm sorry "Harry" but if you are trying to get a reaction out of me then you are going nowhere with this.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 7, 11, 16:03    #29
mattm1970:
the complete stranger who turned up at his secluded house in England

At the suggestion of men who fought alongside your grandfather.

mattm1970:
somehow is now in possession of the item.

Not 'somehow': because your grandfather sold it to him in the presence of your grandmother.

mattm1970:
my Grandfather - who was ill and six months away from his death

Lucky that a doctor was with him all the time that he was with Mr Kochan.

mattm1970:
My Grandmother was adamant that she pleaded with him not to part with the item and despite this he parted with the Log Book - an action that we as a family find upsetting and baffling.

Forgive me for pointing this out but it was your grandfather's log book: it was his to do with as he wanted. You may disagree with his decision but it was his decision. Respect your grandfather by respecting his wishes. And stop bad mouthing a man who appears to have done infinitely more than you will ever do to ensure that the bravery and sacrifice of brave men is remembered.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: delphiandomine  Jan 7, 11, 16:17    #30
There's only one answer here -

If the item was stolen from a man who wasn't in full control of his faculties, then you should inform the police. You've got all the details, it's a straightforward case of theft.

I'm really not sure what posting online is going to achieve.

Sadly, it's all too common that families are left bitter and angry that a family member has chosen to give things to people other than "the person who thought they deserved it". How many families are torn apart after the death of their parents, for example? Seems to be the same old situation here - the family feels they deserve to have the logbook, the grandfather has thought differently.

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