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Would you classify the Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ?


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HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Feb 2, 12, 19:05    #121
" He is one of only a few members of the government in exile that went to the negotiations, and he was betrayed!"
Betrayed by who? (Genuine question)

One thing that has to be said about him: he had balls.
ShawnHThreads: 9
Posts: 3,056
Joined: Jul 2, 09 ♂ 		 Feb 3, 12, 03:03    #122
By the Soviets. He bargained in good faith, had come to a compromise, and they back pedalled and renegged on the offered compromises. But then again, he wasn't exactly bargaining from a strong position, now was he. Who held all the chips? Posession being 9/10ths of the law and all.
MediaWatchThreads: 31
Posts: 1,305
Joined: Aug 30, 08 ♂ 		 Feb 3, 12, 09:00    #123
delphiandomine:
The whole world didn't - in fact, quite the opposite. Your knowledge of international relations during that time seems to be as good as your Polish language skills.

Now, leave the serious historical discussions for the adults.



What countries in the world did not see Poland being occupied by the Soviets from 1950 to 1990?
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Feb 3, 12, 09:52    #124
ShawnH:
By the Soviets. He bargained in good faith, had come to a compromise, and they back pedalled and renegged on the offered compromises.

Betrayed? At least in my mind one can only be betrayed by those who own one loyalty and who one trusts. I don't think that either of those apply to the Soviets and Mikolajczyk.

MediaWatch:
What countries in the world did not see Poland being occupied by the Soviets from 1950 to 1990?

Answer: all of the ones which recognised the Warsaw government as legitimate and did not recognise either of the England-based 'governments in exile', i.e. every country in the world.
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		Edited by: JonnyM  Feb 3, 12, 10:19    #125
MediaWatch:
What countries in the world did not see Poland being occupied by the Soviets from 1950 to 1990?

All of them: the PRL was recognised by every country who recognised the Second Republic. The Vatican (until 1959), General Franco's Spain and the Irish Republic (until 1979) were the last stragglers. The US recognised them from the start.
Harry:
Betrayed? At least in my mind one can only be betrayed by those who own one loyalty and who one trusts. I don't think that either of those apply to the Soviets and Mikolajczyk.

A very good point.
MediaWatchThreads: 31
Posts: 1,305
Joined: Aug 30, 08 ♂ 		 Feb 3, 12, 11:14    #126
JonnyM:
All of them: the PRL was recognised by every country who recognised the Second Republic. The Vatican (until 1959), General Franco's Spain and the Irish Republic (until 1979) were the last stragglers. The US recognised them from the start.


The US thought that Poland and other Soviet Bloc countries like Hungary, Eastern Germany, Czechoslovakia were not controlled by Moscow?

That's why Ronald Reagan told Gorbachev to "Tear down this wall"?

That's why Russian troops were in all these countries?


Good God its scary to know that an "Enemy Within" like you lives in Poland.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Feb 3, 12, 11:31    #127
MediaWatch:
The US thought that Poland and other Soviet Bloc countries like Hungary, Eastern Germany, Czechoslovakia were not controlled by Moscow?

The USA recognised the government in Warsaw as the legitimate and lawful government of Poland. Just as they recognised the governments in Budapest, East Berlin and Prague as being the legitimate and lawful governments of Hungary, Eastern Germany and Czechoslovakia. End of story.

MediaWatch:
That's why Russian troops were in all these countries?

There were more than twice as many American troops in West Germany as Soviet troops in Poland: but neither West Germany nor Poland were occupied nations from 1949 onwards.

MediaWatch:
Good God its scary to know that an "Enemy Within" like you lives in Poland.

And it is wonderful to know that the likes of you will never even visit Poland.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Feb 3, 12, 12:57    #128
JonnyM:
All of them: the PRL was recognised by every country who recognised the Second Republic. The Vatican (until 1959), General Franco's Spain and the Irish Republic (until 1979) were the last stragglers. The US recognised them from the start.


And when it comes down to it - international recognition is what matters.

MediaWatch:
That's why Ronald Reagan told Gorbachev to "Tear down this wall"?


What has Reagan's speech got to do with recognition? If you actually knew how international relations worked, you'd know that in Europe, at least two major leaders were very much in favour of two Germanies and they had no issue with recognising both. Even West Germany recognised East Germany in the 1970's.

MediaWatch:
Good God its scary to know that an "Enemy Within" like you lives in Poland.


Is that your standard insult when the facts disagree with you?
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Feb 3, 12, 13:19    #129
delphiandomine:
And when it comes down to it - international recognition is what matters.

Exactly. So when it comes to the question of whether the communist years in Poland were Soviet occupation, the resounding answer from the world is "No". It's interesting that most Poles agree with the rest of the world, but that some 'Polish'-Americans think that they know better than Poles about what happened in Poland.
ShawnHThreads: 9
Posts: 3,056
Joined: Jul 2, 09 ♂ 		 Feb 3, 12, 13:46    #130
Harry:
Betrayed? At least in my mind one can only be betrayed by those who own one loyalty and who one trusts. I don't think that either of those apply to the Soviets and Mikolajczyk.

Ah yes a subtle play on words, but I am sure any of the good teachers on here would point out that betrayed can be used as a transitive verb, in the context of being lead astray, of being seduced. And furthermore, in this context it is surely used as a synonym of back stab, double cross, or going back on. But you my dear Harry realized that all the time. :-)
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Feb 3, 12, 13:56    #131
ShawnH:
But you my dear Harry realized that all the time. :-)

Not really, hence my question.
ShawnHThreads: 9
Posts: 3,056
Joined: Jul 2, 09 ♂ 		 Feb 3, 12, 13:58    #132
Harry:
Not really, hence my question.

So in that context, was he betrayed?
strzygaThreads: 4
Posts: 986
Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀ 		 Feb 3, 12, 17:36    #133
MediaWatch:
The US thought that Poland and other Soviet Bloc countries like Hungary, Eastern Germany, Czechoslovakia were not controlled by Moscow?


Controlled is not the same as occupied.
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Feb 3, 12, 18:32    #134
strzyga:
Controlled is not the same as occupied.

So what would you call it? Already asked that question, yet nobody answered, would you ?
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Feb 3, 12, 21:28    #135
strzyga:
Controlled is not the same as occupied.

that all, you know what it wasn't but you don't know what it was ?

phew!
anybody ?
MediaWatchThreads: 31
Posts: 1,305
Joined: Aug 30, 08 ♂ 		 Feb 3, 12, 21:32    #136
Harry:
Exactly. So when it comes to the question of whether the communist years in Poland were Soviet occupation, the resounding answer from the world is "No". It's interesting that most Poles agree with the rest of the world, but that some 'Polish'-Americans think that they know better than Poles about what happened in Poland.


Most Poles don't come to this website since they see its just a bash Poland website for trolls like you. They are also mostly on Polish language websites anyway.


America had diplomatic relations with the governments located in the territories of Soviet Bloc nations like Poland, E. Germany, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, etc because they "were the only game in town" so to speak. America wanted to have some relation with the people of those countries despite how imperfect the government representing them or vehicle of communication was.

But that still does not mean those countries were not controlled by Moscow. Moscow allowed some liberties to these countries (like allowing them to communicate with the West), but that does not mean Moscow did not control them.

Nobody here claiming that Moscow did not control these countries will answer the simple question. Could the governments of these countries do things that Moscow didn't like?? Why wasn't capitalism put into place prior to 1990 in Poland and the rest of the Soviet Bloc nations?


Why wasn't East Germany allowed to unite with West Germany before 1989? I'm sure the people of both those countries wanted to unite from 1950-1989.
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Feb 3, 12, 22:31    #137
strzyga:
Controlled is not the same as occupied.

Exactly. Case closed.
Grzegorz_Threads: 81
Posts: 6,213
Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂ 		 Feb 3, 12, 23:12    #138
spiritus:
Would you classify the Communist years as a "Soviet occupation" ?


Legally no, in practice yes, at least in 1944-56, later "partly".
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Feb 3, 12, 23:56    #139
MediaWatch:
Nobody here claiming that Moscow did not control these countries will answer the simple question. Could the governments of these countries do things that Moscow didn't like?


I refer you to Tito's Yugoslavia, Hoxha's Albania and Ceausescu's Romania. All of them frequently did what they wanted to do and didn't toe the party line. Both Yugoslavia and Albania very much did their own thing - and Romania was also rather independently minded at times.

MediaWatch:
Why wasn't East Germany allowed to unite with West Germany before 1989? I'm sure the people of both those countries wanted to unite from 1950-1989.


You do realise that the French and British didn't particularly want German unification? If you knew your history (which you don't) - you'd know that the price of German unification was the Euro.

MediaWatch:
Most Poles don't come to this website since they see its just a bash Poland website for trolls like you. They are also mostly on Polish language websites anyway.


They don't come to this website because the majority of Poles don't see "the enemy within", they don't subscribe to ridiculous Smolensk theories and certainly have nothing to do with racist Polish-Americans who insist that they know better than Polish people.

MediaWatch:
America had diplomatic relations with the governments located in the territories of Soviet Bloc nations like Poland, E. Germany, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, etc because they "were the only game in town" so to speak. America wanted to have some relation with the people of those countries despite how imperfect the government representing them or vehicle of communication was.


Backtracking. There was the Polish Government in Exile in London that also claimed to represent Poles - so there was an option there. East Germany also had West Germany claiming to be the only lawful successor of the Third Reich - so there was no need to recognise the DDR.

MediaWatch:
But that still does not mean those countries were not controlled by Moscow. Moscow allowed some liberties to these countries (like allowing them to communicate with the West), but that does not mean Moscow did not control them.


There are certainly plenty of examples where Moscow wasn't controlling things. Then again, you wouldn't see this - because you're blinded with tinfoil-hat-rage.

Incidentally, there were plenty of countries supporting the Soviet Bloc - I suggest you start with a course on voting patterns in the UN.
BarneyThreads: 16
Posts: 1,630
Joined: May 26, 08  Pictures: 3 ♂ 		Edited by: Barney  Feb 3, 12, 23:58    #140
JonnyM:
Exactly. Case closed.



Not really, Tibet part of China controlled or occupied? The legal argument crashes there as does the recognition argument. Kosova, Parts of Georgia, Kashmir... depends on which part of non existent international law you decide to agree with.
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Feb 4, 12, 00:09    #141
Barney:
Tibet part of China controlled or occupied?

Legally part of China and recognised as such. Even prior to 1959 nobody (including the Tibetans) claimed it had full independance.
Barney:
The legal argument crashes there as does the recognition argument.

Both still hold.
Barney:
depends on which part of non existent international law you decide to agree with.

International law exists and the majority view holds. The PRL was not an occupation. Case still closed.
BarneyThreads: 16
Posts: 1,630
Joined: May 26, 08  Pictures: 3 ♂ 		 Feb 4, 12, 00:26    #142
Jonny it’s an opinion
I've no wish to go wading through treacle over international law or the status of Tibet. I view it (Tibet) as an occupation and many countries have a convenient unspoken policy ignoring the reality.
The nonsense of China's seat at the UN should illustrate that the only thing that matters is might not law.
The guy with the biggest gun wins. I don’t like kow towing to the school yard bully which is what international relations is all about.
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		Edited by: JonnyM  Feb 4, 12, 01:12    #143
Barney:
it’s an opinion

In this forum there seem to be two polarised opinions on this. I suspect (and everything anybody over about 65 has ever said to me about it points that way) the reality of the situation was not at all black and white.
Barney:
I view it (Tibet) as an occupation and many countries have a convenient unspoken policy ignoring the reality.

In many ways it is. Legally China are in the right - the only real argument against that is that the aboriginal nature and unique way of life of Tibetan society created a situation where they didn't assert statehood, and as the first nation inhabitants they should be treated as a special case as regards self-determination. India got it right with Bhutan and Sikkim.
Barney:
The guy with the biggest gun wins. I don’t like kow towing to the school yard bully which is what international relations is all about.

Very true.
Grzegorz_:
Legally no, in practice yes, at least in 1944-56, later "partly".

Quite a good answer.
BarneyThreads: 16
Posts: 1,630
Joined: May 26, 08  Pictures: 3 ♂ 		 Feb 4, 12, 02:07    #144
Nice post Jonny


Have you just logged on again like me
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Feb 4, 12, 02:32    #145
Barney:
The guy with the biggest gun wins.


Or - as was often the case, especially in the 60's/70's - it was whoever bribed the Government with the most cash. It went to ridiculous levels when you had the USA and the Soviet Union both showering small insignificant countries with cash, just to get them to go along with their "system" and not the other.

When MediaWatch rants about no-one recognising the PRL, he forgets that there were plenty of Soviet-aligned countries who weren't controlled by anyone - especially the Arab and African countries.
rybnikThreads: 29
Posts: 1,232
Joined: Jan 16, 11  Pictures: 4 ♂ 		 Feb 4, 12, 04:12    #146
Harry:
It's interesting that most Poles agree with the rest of the world, but that some 'Polish'-Americans think that they know better than Poles about what happened in Poland

It's possible that some Poles think that now but back in the day all the Poles I met and developed friendships with and who were not Party members did indeed feel as if they were occupied. They were angry, frustrated and at times fearful. They never, ever felt that they were free to pursue their happiness.....just sayin
Zman  Feb 4, 12, 04:22    #147
I was born in PRL way back when.... I felt it was occupied, indirectly maybe, but still. Can't forget my grandpa when he was in his late 70'ies listening to BBC polish service, many years ago, in the countryside..... it was so eerie to listen to and yet, or because of that, I so adored him. Rest in peace Józef.
rybnikThreads: 29
Posts: 1,232
Joined: Jan 16, 11  Pictures: 4 ♂ 		 Feb 4, 12, 04:27    #148
Zman:
it was so eerie to listen to and yet, or because of that, I so adored him. Rest in peace Józef.

We followed in your dear grandfather's footsteps. We too stayed up late when the reception was best to listen to BBC and VOA.
Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34
Posts: 2,358
Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: Mr Grunwald  Feb 4, 12, 17:04    #149
spiritus:
Sorry but this question just popped into my head and I'd be interested to hear your views on this.


ehrm yes

1939-1941
From the red army's march into Poland and til Stalin's death
and later on until 1989 when Poland did not lay claims to her earlier borders.
Before that, yes Poland was occupied.
"Polska" republik ludowa was not occupied. It was the occupier which the Kreml was controlling

Just because a goose is called a swan and is accepted by the whole world, it still doesn't make it a swan.
PRL was nor will ever been have Poland. It was an illusion which sadly many Poles did accept for a long time. (hence Harry's large party member list)
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Feb 4, 12, 17:06    #150
Mr Grunwald:
and later on until 1989 when Poland did not lay claims to her earlier borders.

And doesn't now.

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