Communism fell 20 years ago, Poland led the fight since WW2

POLAND . The Unofficial Guide

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Jun 20, 09, 17:10 #61
pawian: Popieluszko They have recently made a film about this horrendous act. And there is more interesting details about him Here. Wiki Thanks gumishu, I was not clear on the details.

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Jun 20, 09, 17:17 #62

pawian:

At the end of communism,when economy was crumbling into pieces, regimes realised they were losing support not only of common people but also the police and army, two fundamental pillars without which communist system would have collapsed in any country after 3 months after its introduction.
Shortly speaking, party bosses weren`t sure if the forces would stand by them in case of trouble. They prefered to resign than check it out for themselves.

Good point.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07 ♂	Jun 20, 09, 17:21 #63
Seanus: Human rights law was a major part of my university education and if you wipe out What? What are you talking about¿ Lay apart all these figments about "human rights" ¡¡¡ Do you think that somebody will care about your personal rights ??? Poor boy. I will eat your kilt, if it is so.

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Edited by: pawian Jun 20, 09, 17:22 #64

gumishu:

however sometime in the 50's the commies made an assault on nation's savings performing money replacement - they printed new notes (don't know about coins) and single person or family could only receive a limited amount of new currency for the old currency - it was an attempt to destroy private sector - I think the very moment most deals in private sector started to be performed in dollars (illegally)

In 1950, a new złoty was introduced, replacing all earlier issues at a rate of one hundred to one. The new banknotes were dated 1948, whilst the new coins were dated 1949. From 1 January 1990 it was a convertible currency.

ConstantineK:

I will eat your kilt,

Only after weeks of wearing. :):):):)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Edited by: Seanus Jun 20, 09, 17:28 #65
I can enforce my rights, CK, so there. The closest you'll get to a kilt is your tablecloth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYaC09xdC38&feature=related, here's what happens when you let communists get a foothold. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. Arkan talking about many important issues. Harry, is this the devil reincarnate? Come off it!

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07 ♂	Edited by: Moderator Jun 20, 09, 17:38 #66
Seanus: can enforce my rights, CK, so there. The closest you'll get to a kilt is your tablecloth I don't think I shall need it, because your so called "rights" are just fiction, and Irish re-referendum is a clear evidence of my point. Topic reminder: Communism fell 20 years ago, Poland led the fight since WW2 There is no need to ruin a perfectly valid thread.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jun 20, 09, 17:52 #67
The point is, communists care little for rights, Mod. Ever read Solzhenitzyn? Rights (or lack thereof) are inextricably linked with their outlook on humanity. Animal Farm showed the physical manifestations of it and how reality differed from the theory. There is more than a tenuous correlation between what I'm saying and what pawian was saying about uprisings and fighting for a noble cause.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07 ♂	Jun 20, 09, 18:06 #68
Seanus: Animal Farm showed the physical Why do you make all these references for Animal Farm ? What do you think this book about? For sure, livestock should be ruled by its natural masters, and all misfortunes will fall upon it, if only it will imagine that it can be ruled by its own.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jun 20, 09, 18:17 #69
Poland fought all the nonsense that is communism, CK. Oppression, indifference, control and subjugation. I don't think you have read the book at all. I think it would disgust you to see the truth of your police state and also the vicissitudes of the Stalin regime.

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Jun 20, 09, 18:28 #70

Seanus:

I think it would disgust you to see the truth of your police state and also the vicissitudes of the Stalin regime.

I know about my "police" state and Stalin's vicissitudes well enough, but also I know enough villainies of so called western "democratic" states and regimes. And these misdeeds take places even at present days.

The fact is that your "world and civilization" deserve to be ruined even more than communizm.

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Jun 20, 09, 18:32 #71

CK, let's keep it simple. Communism here was widely hated. Democracy, for all its shortcomings, has much more to commend itself than you'll ever realise.

Poland fought long and hard to win that battle, and it triumphed!! So, what misdeeds are anything like the hell that the Russian secret police put Polish people through?

I'm not a major fan of EU officials either but what specific allegations are you referring to?

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,900 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Jun 20, 09, 18:32 #72
ConstantineK: Seanus: Human rights law was a major part of my university education and if you wipe out What? What are you talking about¿ Lay apart all these figments about "human rights" ¡¡¡ ConstantineK has grasped the hardcore variance of marxism as anti-humanist movement.

lexiThreads: 1 Posts: 188 Joined: Feb 17, 09 ♀	Jun 20, 09, 18:34 #73
pawian: Fortunately, educated Westerners know the truth Exactly Pawian, I could not have put this better myself.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,900 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Jun 20, 09, 18:35 #74
pawian: party bosses weren`t sure if the forces would stand by them in case of trouble. They prefered to resign Basically party bosses became millionaires.It was simply a sell out.

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Edited by: pawian Jun 20, 09, 18:43 #75
southern: Basically party bosses became millionaires.It was simply a sell out. Yes. Apparatchiks, i.e. regime`s henchmen, set up private companies, using the state property and funds and created a new class of capitalists. In the wink of an eye. It shows what people communism had - greedy opportunists. :):):)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jun 20, 09, 18:53 #76
Very true, pawian. Rip people off and then deny them any prospect of coming back at you. Total control. If Kostik really believes that communists strive for equality and even distribution, he needs to get off the vodka. CK, Poland has an excellent medical service. They might feel sympathy for you. Vodka is a shared commonality. It's never too late to get help.

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Jun 20, 09, 19:31 #77

southern:

ConstantineK has grasped the hardcore variance of marxism as anti-humanist movement.

Neither first, nor the second, Southern. Actually I am democrat, pure demokrat... but I prefer indifidual, personal democracy inside each man, his inner righ to choose this way or another. Unfortunately this kind of democracy is peculiar to very few people, to heroes predominantly. On the contrary, you adores only empty forms of democracy, like voting right, for example. This democracy of the mob I reject with contempt. Today they vote for Smith, tomorrow they will give their votes for Brown.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jun 20, 09, 19:38 #78
You are a democrat, hehehe. Then why don't you let democracy run its natural course? So people sway between candidates and ideas, so what? I like your suggestion of individual democracy inside each man, CK. Just like God inside each man. Anyway, we have borderline communists in today's EU. They label themselves as socialists but that doesn't convey the whole truth.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,900 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Jun 20, 09, 19:51 #79
ConstantineK: Actually I am democrat, pure demokrat... But you wrote you are a supporter of absolute monarchy.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jun 20, 09, 19:53 #80
CK doesn't know what he is and he had better be careful when defending communism. It led to much misery here. Imposing regimes on others is anathema to good reason.

ZIMMYThreads: 10 Posts: 2,243 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Jun 20, 09, 20:00 #81
ConstantineK: This democracy of the mob I reject with contempt. Today they vote for Smith, tomorrow they will give their votes for Brown. My votes go to Smith and Wesson. Those are the essential individual rights.

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Jun 20, 09, 20:05 #82

Seanus:

Then why don't you let democracy run its natural course?

Because the mankind, in a its greater part, is just miserable and backwarded idiots and to grant them voting rights means only futher disgracing of fundamental bases of democracy. Communism failed only because it is workable only among ideal noncorrupted people. But where can we find such? There is no any natural courses of the democracy. Where can you find the democracy itself?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jun 20, 09, 20:15 #83
So how do you propose to put MP's into place if not by the collective will of the people? What democratic books have you read, sonny? CK, that was the whole point of Animal Farm. No natural course of democracy? Well, what do you propose then? Holland is a fine democracy, can't you learn from them?

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Edited by: pawian Jun 20, 09, 20:37 #84

The story continued.....
After great demonstrations of 1982-83 had finished and Popiełuszko`s death in 1984 had been mourned, the society sank into apathy. People took care of their problems of everyday life, participated neither in regime`s nor opposition actions. It was called emigracja wewnętrzna - inner emigration. In 1985-1988 it seemed that the dictators managed to pacify the angry nation.
However, it was a wrong assumption. Life in communist Poland was getting more and more unbearable. Everybody knew that the system had to be changed because if continued, it would finally bring a complete disaster to the country.
Having nothing to lose, frustrated workers and intelligentsia rose against communism again. In 1988 there were two giant waves of strikes at steel plants, shipyards, mines and universities. Spring strikes were brutally supressed by system`s forces like before (luckily without shooting) but after the summer wave the regime finally realised they needed to start talking with people to avoid the revolution by angry and hungry masses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_Polish_strikes
The 1988 Polish strikes were a massive wave of strikes which broke out in 1988 in the People’s Republic of Poland. The strikes, as well as street demonstrations, continued well into summer, with last of them ending in early September. These actions shook the Communist regime of the country to such an extent, that it was forced to begin talking about recognising Solidarity[1]. As a result, later that year, the regime decided to negotiate with the opposition[2], which opened way for the 1989 Round Table Agreement. It must be mentioned that the second, much bigger wave of strikes (August 1988) surprised both the government, and top leaders of Solidarity, who were not expecting actions of such intensity. These strikes were mostly organized by local activists, who had no idea that their leaders from Warsaw had already started secret negotiations with the Communists[3].

Outcome
At first, the government tried to threaten the protestors; on August 20, the Committee of National Defence announced preparations for introduction of national state of emergency. However, the determination of the workers made the Communist realize that talks with the officially non-existent trade union were inevitable. On August 31, General Czesław Kiszczak met with Lech Wałęsa. During the conversation, which was witnessed by Archbishop Bronisław Wacław Dąbrowski, Kiszczak appealed for putting an end to strikes, he also promised to take care of legalisation of Solidarity[29].
Even though Solidarity activists in several centers opposed Wałęsa's appeal to end strikes, soon afterwards laborers returned to work. The last strikes, in the Port of Szczecin and the July Manifesto coal mine, lasted until September 3. On December 18, Wałęsa established the Solidarity Citizens' Committee, which opened way for the Polish Round Table Agreement.

Gdańsk Shipyard. Demands were always the same - bring back delegalised Solidarity trade union.

Shipyard workers! We are with you! Hold on!

polityka.pl/_gAllery/10/19/54/101954/0solid600.jpg

Warsaw University. Students supported workers. Full solidarity.

wlodek.metrolan.pl/Wydarzenia%202/Strajk%20NZS%2003.jpg

Another wonderful example of solidarity - Belarussian students at Warsaw University joined the strike

encyklopedia.servis.pl/commons/thumb/5/56/Bialoruscy.studenci.png/300p x-Bialoruscy.studenci.png

Wrocław University

University in Łódź.

The end of spring strikes - workers are leaving their plants.

Kaczyński brothers on the right

Some spring strikes were suppressed by the police.

Strikes started again in August.

Walesa

Desperate workers

Public transport on strike

A mass in a striking steel plant in Krakow.

Most priests actively supported Solidarity.

Mine

The policy of brutal pacification used by the regime in previous years failed. Here is a photo of a tank which took part in introducing martial law in 1981. It has a Solidarity leaflet stuck on it.

It is an insightful omen of what happened in 1988 and later.

TBC

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Jun 20, 09, 20:48 #85

Seanus:

Holland is a fine democracy, can't you learn from them?

With hate and fear toward immigrants burried deep inside people's hearts. I know it very well, because have few holland partners. Some drinks of vodka make them more free in their comments.

Seanus:

CK, that was the whole point of Animal Farm.

You reffer on Animal Farm, but I want to give you another example of personal pure democracy and devotion. This is life of Protopop Avvakuum. This Russian religios priest and spiritual leader of oldbelievers opposition is considered as most briliant writer of 17-th century during the time of great schism inside russian orthodox church (between Old and New belivers). Being imprisonment, he said the following: "We shall be burnt in fire but never will cease our persuasions". And for the sake of what? The principal question was the number of fingers for crossing, two or three. Eventually he was burnt.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Jun 20, 09, 20:57 #86
ConstantineK, you are completely off topic. Why don't you start your own thread rather than go off on your own rants on something that is interesting.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jun 20, 09, 21:04 #87
Exactly, Seanny. CK, how do you imagine life was for Poles under communism. I've heard plenty stories. Please describe a typical day for your average worker, your conception.

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Jun 20, 09, 21:08 #88

SeanBM:

ConstantineK, you are completely off topic. Why don't you start your own thread rather than go off on your own rants on something that is interesting

Do you think? It was only an example of firmity which so rare among modern people. Those workers of Gdansk's shipyard who launched the contrrevolution in poland during mid 80-th, are now complaining. Your "domocratic" revolution failed, your heroes you adores are false.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Jun 20, 09, 21:10 #89
ConstantineK: Do you think? Yes I do but I see you are a nutter, with delusions of grandeur. You are your own worst enemy, so I best leave you to your insanity.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jun 20, 09, 21:18 #90
Come on, CK, how was communism good for the Poles?

re: Communism fell 20 years ago, Poland led the fight since WW2

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