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Communism fell 20 years ago, Poland led the fight since WW2

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pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 22:29 #151
Bratwurst Boy: Note, no Germans! ....this time.... ;) East Germans. armed to their teeth, were ready and willing to invade too. Normal. However, they were grounded by Soviet Union leaders who didn`t want to make the situation worse. Instead, neutral Poles were sent. :):) OK, I admit, that is a joke. :):):)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 22:32 #152
pawian: Instead, neutral Poles were sent. :):) OK, I admit, that is a joke. :):):) Well, I don't think it's so far off....a plausible scenario. WWII was not that far back then...

♂

Edited by: pawian Jan 31, 10, 22:41 #153

convex:

Yeah, you know....Poles in tanks...leading the fight since WW2...

I will answer you in the thread about Polish Myths.
http://www.polishforums.com/history-poland-34/polish-historical-myths- break-not-break-41482/

However, first, could you read the whole thread about Communism here? It seems to me that you have read only the title of it. It is far too little. :):):) After reading it, you will get a better view of things.

Bratwurst Boy:

Well, I don't think it's so far off....a plausible scenario. WWII was not that far back then...

Yes, I am concluding from the history of 1980s when Soviets prepared an invasion against Poland, they also didn`t plan to use East German forces.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 22:43 #154
What is that Spiegel-cover about?

convexThreads: 47 Posts: 7,189 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 22:53 #155
pawian: I will answer you in the thread Polish Myths. Please spare it, were there Poles in tanks? Yes or no? Did the Romanians tell the Russians to go screw themselves, yes or no? Just take some responsibility, Poland invaded in 1968. That's a far cry from leading the way since WW2...

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 23:18 #156
convex: Poland invaded in 1968. you are not ex-military are you?

convexThreads: 47 Posts: 7,189 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 23:27 #157
Ironside: you are not ex-military are you? far from it

♂

Edited by: pawian Jan 31, 10, 23:31 #158

convex:

Please spare it, were there Poles in tanks? Yes or no? Did the Romanians tell the Russians to go screw themselves, yes or no? Just take some responsibility, Poland invaded in 1968. That's a far cry from leading the way since WW2...

:):):) You seem carried away by unnecessary emotions.

Please, cool off and read this thread in full.

Then, go to the thread I suggested and read it in full.

:):):)

Bratwurst Boy:

What is that Spiegel-cover about?

The would-be invasion of Poland by Warsaw Pact armies in December 1980. Everything was ready and tanks started warming up their engines, when the order came to cease the operation. Allegedly after US President`s warnings.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 23:32 #159
pawian: The would-be invasion of Poland by Warsaw Pact armies in December 1980. Erm...Poland was also a member of the Warsaw Pact! Do you have a link to that event?

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 23:36 #160
Bratwurst Boy: Do you have a link to that event? Yes. http://wilsoncenter.org/topics/pubs/ACFB35.PDF Also in Polish. It says what I already mentioned. The Soviet Union called off the troops in the last moment. http://www.mail-archive.com/poland-l@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/msg0122 1.html

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 23:37 #161
convex: far from it Why I'm not suprised?

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Feb 7, 10, 15:33 #162
Mr Grunwald: He got hanged, burned, blown up (his foot) and it is cursing somewhere in Sweden I couldn't be more happy LOL ^^ I have found a film wbout communist police guarding Lenin monument g

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Feb 7, 10, 19:51 #163
pawian: Yes. Interesting....thanks!

ZIMMYThreads: 10 Posts: 2,243 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Feb 8, 10, 00:26 #164
ConstantineK: SU collapsed only because it was governed too badly. Neither poland nor america has something with this event. The Soviet Union fell but....................Poland gave the push.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	Edited by: z_darius Feb 8, 10, 05:35 #165
pawian: ... Thanks for this link. It brought some memories. That song too, almost forgotten. Very strong words. Still valid today.

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Feb 8, 10, 21:41 #166
z_darius: It brought some memories. That song too, almost forgotten. Very strong words. Still valid today. Which song do you mean? There are two... Both have strong words and both are valid today. ZIMMY: Soviet Union fell but....................Poland gave the push. It is an understatement. Better to say: a kick in the ass. :):):)

♀ [Moderator]

Aug 20, 10, 18:20 #167

Ryszard Siwiec:
in Prague:
his street

now, he's got an obelisk...

A guard stands next to the black obelisk which was unveiled in front of the Institute for the Study of Totalitarian Regimes in Prague Friday, Aug. 20, 2010. The memorial commemorates Polish teacher Ryszard Siwiec who committed suicide by self-immolation on September 8, 1968, in protest against the 1968 Soviet-led invasion of former Czechoslovakia, in which Poland also participated. Siwiec was the first person to protest against the violent suppression of the Prague Spring reform movement in this way.

in Prague Friday, Aug. 20, 2010

convexThreads: 47 Posts: 7,189 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Aug 20, 10, 19:44 #168
pgtx: his street Ha, that's about 150m from my favorite bar in Prague, used to walk down it just about every night. Siwiec and Zizkov FTW!

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Aug 21, 10, 00:10 #169
convex: Ha, that's about 150m from my favorite bar in Prague, used to walk down it just about every night. Siwiec and Zizkov FTW! bar moth

♂

Aug 31, 10, 20:13 #170

Today is the 30th anniversary of signing a pact between striking workers and communist authorities who, instead of shooting at people like before, agreed to fulfill workers` social and political demands, with the right to create free independent trade unions topping the list.

See photos from the strike and other events:
http://www.polishforums.com/history-poland-34/communism-fell-years-ago -poland-led-fight-since-ww-35430/#msg698869

♂

Aug 31, 10, 20:30 #171

First of all, thank you for this impressive collection of pictures, you put up a nice piece of work there and it makes sense what you're saying. In 1980/81 as a schoolkid I followed the proceedings around Solidarity (forgive me for writing the English name) and then it kinda sank away into the annals of history. To my personal surprise they re-surfaced in early 1989 and indeed in June won the elections overwhelmingly.

However, I do have a question: you mention that Poland has led the way since WW2, how should I see this within the context of Hungary 1956 and Czechoslovakia 1968, perhaps even Berlin 1953?

I think, but I am not sure that this was what Shelley was aiming at last year when she said that the West sees CZ (the mentioned Spring in Prague) and especially Hungary (not only the Imre Nagy revolt, but also the opening of the border with Austria in the summer of 1989 for waiting East Germans) as torch-bearer in the liberation of Eastern Europe. Don't get me wrong, with this I don't mean any disrespect to Polish efforts in that respect and I personally knew that it was the elections of June 1989 which set the dominoes in motion, but to the general public in the West it always has been Hungary and to a lesser extent Czechoslovakia that pulled the trigger. We didn't get that much news coming out of Poland and for some reason CZ and HU have always been looked upon as most "Westernized" countries, that is, through the general Western eye.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

♂

Edited by: pawian Apr 21, 11, 00:00 #172

MareGaea:

However, I do have a question: you mention that Poland has led the way since WW2, how should I see this within the context of Hungary 1956 and Czechoslovakia 1968, perhaps even Berlin 1953?

The events you mentioned were revolutions against communism that caused a lot of ferment in the block and outside, indeed, but lasted too short and got suppressed by communists so successfully that they were never repeated.

Poland, on the contrary, was in constant revolution. The events described in this thread can be grouped in the following way:

Partisan war 1945-1948
Poznan rebellion and end of stalinism 1956
Students and intelligentsia`s protests 1968
Massacre of workers 1970
Workers` protests 1976
Pope`s election and first visit to Poland 1979
Workers` strikes and Solidarity 1980
Martial law and resistance 1981-1988
Strikes and protests 1988
Communism toppled in Poland ahead of all other countries 1989

MareGaea:

I think, but I am not sure that this was what Shelley was aiming at last year when she said that the West sees CZ (the mentioned Spring in Prague) and especially Hungary (not only the Imre Nagy revolt, but also the opening of the border with Austria in the summer of 1989 for waiting East Germans) as torch-bearer in the liberation of Eastern Europe. Don't get me wrong, with this I don't mean any disrespect to Polish efforts in that respect and I personally knew that it was the elections of June 1989 which set the dominoes in motion, but to the general public in the West it always has been Hungary and to a lesser extent Czechoslovakia that pulled the trigger.

These events are seen as torch - bearers because both provoked a Soviet intervention on a mass scale. Of course, sth like that couldn`t go unnoticed. :):):)

♂

Apr 21, 11, 23:56 #173

Ryszard Kowalczyk (born 20 February 1937) and his younger brother Jerzy Kowalczyk (born 1942) - Polish brothers who planted a bomb as a protest against the communist rule in Poland.

The Kowalczyk brothers were scientists at Opole University. They planted a bomb there on 6 October 1971 as a protest specifically against the violence perpetrated by the communist authorities against the workers' protest. A big celebration for the Służba Bezpieczeństwa and Milicja Obywatelska was to take place at the University in the morning of the following day. The big explosion literally destroyed the big university hall where the celebrations were to take place.

Although no-one was injured, a wide investigation has been launched and the Kowalczyks were quickly captured. On 8 September 1972 the court in Opole sentenced Jerzy to death and Ryszard as his helper to 25 years in prison. The sentence was confirmed by the Supreme Court on 18 December 1972. Such severe sentences resulted in protests involving Jan Józef Szczepański, Wisława Szymborska, Jerzy Szacki, Stanisław Lem, Daniel Olbrychski and Catholic authorities. On 19 January 1973 the Council of State reduced Jerzy Kowalczyk's sentence to 25 years in prison.

With the rise of Solidarity in the 1980s, pardons were issued and the brothers were freed for good behavior: Ryszard in 1983 and Jerzy in 1985. In 1991 President Lech Wałęsa decided that their sentences were legally forgotten which would allow them to work again. Still this declaration and following it legal procedure, has not been confirmed by the Supreme Court, which in January 2002 ruled that the conviction of the Kowalczyks can not be appealed, justifying it mainly but not uniquely by the reasons of the legal procedure. The ruling closes the appeal possibilities in this case.

♂

Edited by: pawian May 24, 11, 00:32 #174

Splinter info on 1980s

An interview with a demonstrator who was intentionally run over by a riot militia truck in 1982:

Photos and videos from martial law 1981

1983, the communist police attack people in front of the cathedral, BBC coverage:

Those swines who beat and tear gased people, old women preferably, are probably normal Poles today. In 1981, for perks and priviliges, like flats, cars, higher salaries, they became the defenders of the falling system. Do they feel any remorse today?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 24, 11, 12:39 #175
I'd doubt it, pawian. If there is a clear justification in their eyes, they'll stick with it. Poland spearheaded many campaigns, as they needed to do because America's fight with communism was primarily focussed elsewhere.

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Edited by: pawian May 25, 11, 21:28 #176
Seanus: I'd doubt it, pawian. If there is a clear justification in their eyes, they'll stick with it. Yes, people are able to justify everything, every iniquity they commit, even murder. The secret police guys who murdered priest Popiełuszko still believe deeply it was the right thing to do.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 25, 11, 22:15 #177
Most Poles I meet tend to have solid moral scruples so we can see how a system demonises them. Hiding behind the cloak of 'the right thing' doesn't cut the mustard/doesn't wash here as murder is virtually indefensible.

♂

Edited by: pawian May 25, 11, 23:33 #178

Seanus:

Hiding behind the cloak of 'the right thing' doesn't cut the mustard/doesn't wash here as murder is virtually indefensible.

I was too cruel. Some of Popiełuszko`s murderers did feel remorse.

Beating Killed Priest, Policeman Testifies : Attempt to Confuse Investigators by Demanding Ransom Told
January 06, 1985|United Press International
Two secret policemen accused of kidnaping and murdering a pro-Solidarity priest tried to confuse investigators by telephoning church officials and demanding a $50,000 ransom, a third agent testified Friday.
Lt. Waldemar Chmielewski, one of four secret police agents accused in the killing of the Rev. Jerzy Popieluszko, wept and stammered.
"It was cruel and nightmarish," Chmielewski told the court. Chmielewski said his boss, Capt. Grzegorz Piotrowski, beat the priest several times with a wooden stick after he was kidnaped. "No man could survive as many beatings as he was given. I am convinced that the beating was the cause of his death." On Wednesday, Chmielewski became the second of the four accused to testify that the operation was approved by top police officials.
Popieluszko, 37, a champion of the outlawed trade union Solidarity, was known throughout Poland for his anti-government sermons. He was kidnapped Oct. 19 near the northern city of Torun. His body, beaten and apparently strangled, was found Oct. 30 in a reservoir outside Torun.
Chmielewski, 29, said Piotrowski and fellow defendant Lt. Leszek Pekala tried to confuse investigators by calling the office of the bishop of Warsaw and demanding a $50,000 ransom for Popieluszko's return. "They laughed after giving a call to the church," Chmielewski said. Chmielewski also said Pietrowski tried to comfort him by telling him not to worry about a special commission set up at the Interior Ministry to investigate the case. "He calmed me down, (told me) not to worry as there were honest and proper people on the commission." Gen. Platek and another official on the committee identified only as Jablonski were described by Piotrowski as "his men," Chmielewski said. Platek later was suspended from his duties at the Interior Ministry.
Chmielewski said Piotrowski also told him not to conduct any conversations inside Piotrowski's office.
"He said he got a slip of paper from Col. Adam Pietruszka informing them that the rooms could be bugged," Chmielewski said.
On Wednesday, Chmielewski quoted Piotrowski as saying, "The operation had broad dimensions and some other actions were planned to be taken against the priest by unspecified persons."
Pekala testified last week that Piotrowski would not have dared kidnap the priest without high-level support.
Pekala, Chmielewski and Piotrowski are charged with Popieluszko's murder. Pietruszka is charged with conspiracy in the crime, and all four face sentences ranging from eight years in jail to death by hanging. The trial began Dec. 27.
Chmielewski wept several times as he said that he could not stand living until he told what happened to Popieluszko. While his pregnant wife sat weeping nearby, Chmielewski spoke with a stammer that he developed following the priest's death. His hands trembled.

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-01-06/news/mn-6855_1_chmielewski

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 25, 11, 23:37 #179
Ah, it was all for the media ;)

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	May 25, 11, 23:44 #180
Seanus: Ah, it was all for the media ;) I don`t think so. :):) I still remember the communist TV footage of the trial. The guy was really stricken.

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