Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938

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Edited by: aphrodisiac Jul 31, 10, 15:21 #1

Gazeta Wyborcza published a short article today about the action taken by Homo Faber organization to remind us about the "dark page in the history of Poland"
[url=http://lublin.gazeta.pl/lublin/1,35640,8198968,Burzenie_cerkwi_w_ 1938_roku__Historia_jakiej_nie_ma.html][/url]

Polish version:
[b]Pod koniec lat 30. polskie władze rozpoczęły akcję wymierzoną w obywateli wyznania prawosławnego. Latem 1938 roku w województwie lubelskim zniszczono ponad 120 cerkwi i kaplic prawosławnych. Wyburzyli je polscy robotnicy, policjanci i żołnierze. Ludzi na co dzień mówiących po ukraińsku polonizowano, a także namawiano bądź zmuszano do przejścia na katolicyzm. Te działania były częścią polskiej polityki narodowościowej.
[/b]

translation:
At the end of 1930s, Polish government initiation an action aimed at Orthodox believers. In the summer of 1938 in the Lublin Voividship 120 Orthodx churches and chapels were destroyed. Polish workers, police and soldiers were solely responsible for the destruction. People, who spoke Ukrainian on the daily basis were polonised or were either forced or convinced to convert to Catholic faith.

Another dark page in Polish history discovered.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 31, 10, 15:33 #2
It seems hard to believe, aphro. Desecrating another Christian church?? What makes the RCC so different anyway?

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Jul 31, 10, 15:47 #3

If this is true, then it's deplorable. Any assault on people's religous sites, the most
cherished of human values, is disgraceful. However, one must not be ahistorical. The truncated 2nd republic felt robbed of its pre-partition terriory. Why on earth should the chief aggressor, Russia, get to keep so much of its partition-era spoils. Even what Poland eventually got under Riga had to be wrested back in bloody armed combat. Let's imagine that some historical vicissitude sudddenly wiped your country off the map and 123 years later you got back less than half of what you lost. Apply that to the US, Britain, France or any other country before starting to bash poor Poland!

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Jul 31, 10, 15:53 #4

Seanus,
At lesast the reprot did not mention Orhtodox clergy and fiathful being killed. Ever wonder why the Western media are so silent about the anti-Catholic atrocities being perpetrated at present in India and elswehwere in the Third World? Not only RC clergy and religious but rank and file faithful are murdered, churches and the homes of Catholics are burnt down and other forms of harrassment are employed.
Must be poltical correctness in action!

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Jul 31, 10, 15:53 #5

Seanus
Wait, I thought you were British? You might as well ask why did Protestants and Catholics kill each other since they're all Christians anyway.
It's not so much about the differences in religions but the fact that belonging to two different churches creates a division in the population. Interwar Poland was fixated on the goal of unity and assimilation, so it's understandable that they would target religion as well. And don't forget that the area was ethnically mixed and Ukrainians didn't hide the fact that they'd much rather live in a state of their own than in Poland. Religious divisions were only one aspect of the conflict.

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Edited by: Moderator Jul 31, 10, 15:59 #6

Polonius3:

Ever wonder why the Western media are so silent about the anti-Catholic atrocities being perpetrated at present in India and elswehwere in the Third World? Not only RC clergy and religious but rank and file faithful are murdered, churches and the homes of Catholics are burnt down and other forms of harrassment are employed.
Must be poltical correctness in action!

this is not a thread about RC.

Seanus:

It seems hard to believe, aphro. Desecrating another Christian church?? What makes the RCC so different anyway?

as much as it is, the article speaks for itself.

vetala:

Wait, I thought you were British? You might as well ask why did Protestants and Catholics kill each other since they're all Christians anyway.
It's not so much about the differences in religions but the fact that belonging to two different churches creates a division in the population. Interwar Poland was fixated on the goal of unity and assimilation, so it's understandable that they would target religion as well. And don't forget that the area was ethnically mixed and Ukrainians didn't hide the fact that they'd much rather live in a state of their own than in Poland. Religious divisions were only one aspect of the conflict.

very fair explanation.

content removed

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 31, 10, 16:04 #7
It's pure idiocy! I'm aware of it, vetala, very much so! Sectarian divides in Scotland are laughable. Seeing differences where there are more commonalities is just lunacy!

aphrodisiacThreads: 19 Posts: 3,907 Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀	Jul 31, 10, 16:18 #8
Seanus: Sectarian divides in Scotland are laughable. Seeing differences where there are more commonalities is just lunacy! it is not the same. I understand that you are looking for the reference point, but sometimes there cannot be one.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 31, 10, 16:22 #9
What is not the same?

aphrodisiacThreads: 19 Posts: 3,907 Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀	Edited by: aphrodisiac Jul 31, 10, 16:38 #10
Seanus: What is not the same? never mind, obviously you are questioning the facts judging from your post, why get involved then. Next time you want to comment, maybe you should contribute more then just mere disbelief?

♂

Jul 31, 10, 16:46 #11

vetala:

It's not so much about the differences in religions but the fact that belonging to two different churches creates a division in the population.

As always it's simply a matter of "us" against "them". And I don't know when that nonsense will end, if it ever ends, but I guess as long as ppl have the basic need to belong to a group (compare Maslov's steps), it'll be like that.

Seanus:

Sectarian divides in Scotland

You think Scotland is divided? Ha! Take a look in NL, we have two main clubs here, the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church, then a subtop club called the Reformists, then we have all of them (I know for sure in the Protestant and Reformist camp, but I'm not sure about the Catholic camp but since it's NL, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there were) divided in about more or less 35 different subreligions.

>^..^<

M-G (Urbi et Orbi)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 31, 10, 16:50 #12
Aphro, I'm aware of the hidden agenda of the RCC. It comes as nothing new. I also know of the position in NI, M-G, but try telling that to people from Ireland. They don't think religion plays much of a part in anything.

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Edited by: aphrodisiac Jul 31, 10, 16:55 #13

MareGaea:

As always it's simply a matter of "us" against "them". And I don't know when that nonsense will end, if it ever ends, but I guess as long as ppl have the basic need to belong to a group (compare Maslov's steps), it'll be like that.

I disagree, you are simplifying the issue. The destruction of the Orthodox places (mainly attended by the Ukrainian population was a part of the larger Polish nationalistic action in order to Polinize non- Polish citizens.

MareGaea:

You think Scotland is divided? Ha! Take a look in NL, we have two main clubs here, the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church, then a subtop club called the Reformists, then we have all of them (I know for sure in the Protestant and Reformist camp, but I'm not sure about the Catholic camp but since it's NL, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there were) divided in about more or less 35 different subreligions.

I am sorry, again, this is not a thread about Scottish church, please stay on topic if you can.

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jul 31, 10, 16:56 #14

aphrodisiac:

People, who spoke Ukrainian on the daily basis were polonised or were either forced or convinced to convert to Catholic faith.

Kulturkampf! ;)

Polonius3:

. Any assault on people's religous sites, the most
cherished of human values,

Polonius3:

Ever wonder why the Western media are so silent about the anti-Catholic atrocities being perpetrated at present in India and elswehwere in the Third World?

Oh please, how do you think Christianity came to Europe in the first place?
Ask the millions converted by force, or beheaded or burned at stakes if they still resisted...
Christians have no reasons to whine at all! They only get back some of their medicine they once dished out.

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,049 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Edited by: Babinich Jul 31, 10, 17:11 #15
Bratwurst Boy: They only get back some of their medicine they once dished out. Justice is achieved when the guilty are punished.

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Edited by: Sokrates Jul 31, 10, 17:31 #16

aphrodisiac:

this is not a thread about UPA, don't twist it so it serves your agenda, besides if the crime against Orthodox believers cannot be acknowledged by you then the punishment of UPA by the same token.

What crime? The only crimes i know of are those by Ukrainians against unarmed men, women and children.
http://www.google.pl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wolgal.pl/foto/ofiary1.j pg&imgrefurl=http://www.wolgal.pl/&usg=__Zw7m7B0yQ0MUZVs9NsRCQRoYf5E=& h=350&w=481&sz=27&hl=pl&start=6&tbnid=FBXj45Ni1iqzvM:&tbnh=94&tbnw=129 &prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmordy%2BUPA%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dpl%26sa%3DX%26biw%3D11 31%26bih%3D663%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1

Polish victims of ukrainian genocide!

Some of the more regular tortures brave ukrainian freedom fighters practised on polish women and children:
http://genocide.pl/

Gouging out eyes.
Sawing with a large saw.
Ripping out tongues.
Trowing into the wells.

Lets not forget how bravely the same ukrainian murderers fought against polish army when faced with actual armed enemy... oh wait they did not, they fled.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zofi%C3%B3wka_(powiat_%C5%82ucki)
A polish church burnt by ukrainian nazis in 1943.

http://kresowe.fm.interia.pl/parafie.html

Koniuchy - another polish church burnt by ukrainians.

Lets not forget that all these church burnings were accompanied by genocide of Poles by Ukrainians.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 31, 10, 17:43 #17
Oh, and you do, aphro? I haven't got the point of your post yet. What I do see is all too many people living their lives in the past. This is the PRESENT, 2010, the 21st century. What are you after, compensation?

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Edited by: Sokrates Jul 31, 10, 17:48 #18

http://img291.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=21449438.jpg
Polish civilians murdered by ukrainians.
Polish children murdered and tied to a pole with barbed wire by ukrainians.
A polish village murdered by ukrainians.

Note something aphrodisiac? Your people always targetted women and children, they never attacked soldiers, when the war came to an end your brave UPA fled from AK and AL, when the Poles they faced were women and kids they were all to eager to rape, torture and murder, when the same Poles came as an army they fled.

You must be so proud of your people aphrodisiac.

aphrodisiacThreads: 19 Posts: 3,907 Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀	Jul 31, 10, 17:48 #19
Seanus: Oh, and you do, aphro? I haven't got the point of your post yet. What I do see is all too many people living their lives in the past. This is the PRESENT, 2010, the 21st century. What are you after, compensation? That is your personal opinion and I am not interested in it, why is that not clear to you?

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Edited by: aphrodisiac Jul 31, 10, 18:01 #20

Seanus:

It's not clear to me because you keep quoting me ;) Yes, churches were destroyed 72 years ago, i co z tego? Was it bad? Yes. AND?

is is not a widely known fact for some and I quoted the article from Gazeta Wyborcza from today. Pure information. That is my goal. It paints a picture of Poles who often claim to be tolerant not as such. It is about dispelling that myth.
Of course judging by defensive way of posting by Sokrates, I think I achieved my goal:).

I think that should know the FACTS about 120 destroyed churches and religious oppression of the RC church against the Ukrainian church during the prewar times.

My point might not be clear to you, but it does not mean I don't have one, or does it?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 31, 10, 18:06 #21
OK, that's fine. Do you want anybody to be held accountable for that crime?

jedenThreads: - Posts: 297 Joined: Nov 30, 09 ♂	Jul 31, 10, 18:09 #22
Ok my personal opinion is that polish nationalistic policy in XX century toward Ukrainians was a mistake. i prefered militicultural I RP than polish attempt to polonized Ukrainians. PS I`m Polish, My ancestors are from the east part od Poland ( Stanisławów) now the west part of Ukrainian Rep. ( they had to escape from there so I undarstand also Sok`s point of view)

aphrodisiacThreads: 19 Posts: 3,907 Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀	Edited by: aphrodisiac Jul 31, 10, 18:09 #23
Seanus: OK, that's fine. Do you want anybody to be held accountable for that crime? NO, but people should know about such actions. Especially those who have missed that history lesson.

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Edited by: Sokrates Jul 31, 10, 18:10 #24

aphrodisiac:

please stay ON topic.please stay ON topic.

Ok while on topic of churches, Ukrainians just recently turned a catholic church in Lwów into a philharmonie.
http://wirtualnapolonia.com/2008/09/24/kosciol-przerobiony-na-filharmo nie/

Dont you think desecration of catholic places of worship in XXI century by your country is deplorable?

aphrodisiac:

NO, but people should know about such actions.

Absolutely! Since we're on the topic of burn churches!
http://www.hanaczow.pl/readarticle.php?article_id=17
Yet another church burnt by Ukrainians.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoczew
Here Ukrainians didnt burn a church, just a school.

aphrodisiacThreads: 19 Posts: 3,907 Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀	Edited by: aphrodisiac Jul 31, 10, 18:13 #25
Sokrates: Dont you think desecration of catholic places of worship in XXI century by your country is deplorable? I think is it wrong, but I don't think you are able to discuss anything peacefully on PF - your style is too confrontational for me and very offensive (you don't follow any rules on PF, which I find very offensive), therefore I will refrain from commenting on your posts in the future.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 31, 10, 18:17 #26
Conversion of a church is not that bad, it's not like it was destroyed. Besides, there are likely other churches in Lvov for Catholics to pray in. They are not a Catholic country so why do they need Catholic churches everywhere?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 31, 10, 18:38 #27
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_culture, of course not ;) Unlike countries within the EU, they have more autonomy in some areas in which to enact laws. Territorial sovereignty is an important concept. If they want to convert a church, they can. I'm sure the governor of Lvov approved it.

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09 ♀	Edited by: vetala Jul 31, 10, 18:39 #28
Bratwurst Boy: I hope you keep that in mind next time you blame Prussia for trying to achieve national coherence in demanding an official language from all, or showing the church their limits...;) No. I see both actions - German Kulturkampf and the destruction of Ukrainian churches by Poles - as shameful and worthy only of condemnation.

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Edited by: Sokrates Jul 31, 10, 18:48 #29

I'll make it clear Aphrodisiac, the only discussion we can have about polish-ukrainian relations is when our tanks bulldoze your temporary country, Poland did its homework, apologies were issued where they were due, you as a Ukrainian and your entire nation have no right whatsoever to demand any further explanation, not while having the blood of hundreds of thousand of Poles on your hands that you fail to account for.

Now its time for Ukraine to come out of its nazi poverty stricken cesspool and at least pretend you're something else then a primitive nation of rednecks, apologise to Poland for UPA and cease your anti-polish policies, except you can't, such acts could be done by Poland, by Germany but these are mature nations, you're still the same bunch of civilian murdering peasants you were 65 years ago.

Sokrates:

Cuisine, dance, weddings and religion. What's wrong with that?

Nothing but it shows that ukrainian culture is not flourishing, rather its a very simple and unimpressive culture.

Seanus:

LOL The architecture is largely foreign.

And then its largely not:)

aphrodisiacThreads: 19 Posts: 3,907 Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀	Edited by: aphrodisiac Jul 31, 10, 18:55 #30
vetala: No. I see both actions - German Kulturkampf and the destruction of Ukrainian churches by Poles - as shameful and worthy only of condemnation. absolutely.

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