Nathan: Where in the holy town of L'viv I said that the skirmishes took place after March 14?
My initial quote:
Porzeczka: The radical Ukrainian nationalist sentiment present in the republic's apparatus brought Carpatho-Ukraine into conflict with Prague. In March 1939, a series of skirmishes took place between Czech detachments and Ukrainian Sich groups when an effort to reorganize Carpatho-Ukraine's governing body was instituted by Prague.
Source: An Ethnohistorical dictionary of the Russian and Soviet empires, James Stuart Olson et. Al, 1994
+ The skirmishes took place in March, 1939.
Your response was:
Nathan: Here you go:In the evening of March 13, Tiso (the Slovak leader) and Durcanský met Hitler, Ribbentrop and Generals Brauchtisch and Keitel in Berlin. Hitler made it absolutely clear that either Slovakia declared independence immediately and associated itself with the Reich, or he would let the Hungarians, who were reported by Ribbentrop to be massing on the border, to take the country over. In fact, encouraged by the Germans, the Hungarians were largely massing on the adjacent Ruthene border. During the afternoon and night of March 14, the Slovak people proclaimed their independence from Czecho-Slovakia, and at 5:00 A.M. on March 15, 1939, Hitler declared that the unrest in Czecho-Slovakia was a threat to the German security, and sent his troops into Bohemia and Moravia, meeting virtually no resistance. Well, what do you expect from Ukrainians (Ruthenians) and Slovaks to do in this situation?You either declare independance and get swallowed by Hungarians or you don`t declare the independance and get swallowed by Hungarians under the directive of Hitler. It was simple as that. Skirmishes? What is that kindergarten? WWll was about to begin and skirmishes is a normal occurence in a situations like these. Plus: The Hungarian Border Guard units stationed around Munkács, after throwing back the attacking Czechs on March 14, 1939, pressed forward in turn, and took the town of Orhegyalja. On the same day, the Sich Guards and the Czech nationalist units initiated large scale partisan operations. As you can clearly see, both Ukrainians and Czechs were on one side against invading Hungarians (bratanki) In addition to that: In the night to March 17, the last Czechoslovak troops left Khust and retreated to Romanian borders. Together with them, the one-day president of Carpatho-Ukraine, Voloshyn, emigrated to Romania
+ Seeing that you were basically considering the time-span between March 14 – March 17, I readjusted my message according to the book:
Porzeczka: The skirmishes took place before March 14, 1939. Apparently the Czechs didn't approve Ukrainian Nationalists' rule in Sub-Carpatian Rus.
And thought you would have understood my words this way: the skirmishes took place somewhere between March 1, 1939 and March 14, 1939, because it would be, taking into account that they happened in March (as I posted previously from the same book), the only logical explanation. Why would I have contradicted the quote from the book I took my information from?
Instead, your answer was:
Nathan: But I answered to your quote, which says the skirmishes were in March. Just read what you have posted. If you say they were before , then mention it in your post. I have seen no evidence of that.
Nathan: Put "March" after "before" and you will understand what I was saying.
Where did I say that the skirmishes were before March (not in March)?
Nathan: porzeczka: closed all rusynophile organizations You meant russophile organizations. Where can I find it?
No, I meant rusynophile organizations. You can find it in the book by 'P. Magocsi et Pop' or in one of your previous comments.
Having outlawed all Rusynophile and Russophile civic and political organizations, the Ukrainian National Council/Ukrains’ka narodna rada, headed by Voloshyn himself, had by the outset of 1939 become the dominant political force in the region.
Nathan: And as you know the bill about the single-party and ban of Russophile and Rusinophile parties came into being on October 29, 1938 .
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Nathan: porzeczka: They were and are a distinct nationality, not a branch of Ukrainians. The Rusyn national identity appeared in the same time as 'Ukrainian' one. Ruthenians inhabiting the lands of the former Polish Kingdom started to call themselves 'Ukrainians', in the Sub-carpathian Rus other non-Ukrainian national identity emerged – Rusyns. Nationality depends on whom you consider yourself to be, not any other factor. If overwhelming majority of Rusins see themselves as Ukrainians, then they are Ukrainians.
porzeczka: Nathan: According to a 2001 Ukrainian census,[16] an overwhelming majority of Boykos, Lemkos, Hutsuls, Verkhovyntsi and Dolynians in Ukraine stated their nationality as Ukrainian. We are talking about situation 70 years ago
Nathan: One moment you talk about 2006, a second later you say that my info from 2001 is not good because we are talking about situation 70 years ago. Just make up your mind what period you want us to talk about and then stick to that period yourself.
It is not particularly the year that was 'not good' for me, but equating (=) Rusyns with Ukrainians basing on relatively recent census.
More relevant to the discussion regarding the character of Voloshyn's policies is the issue how Rusyns saw themselves some 70 years ago and earlier. It doesn't matter if the Rusyns might have been assimilated on a large scale after WW2.
The existence of Ukrainians of Rusyn origin at present, does not make Rusyn nationality/ethnicity non-existent even if people declaring it would be in minority.
According to Ukrainian researcher Taras Kuzio, there is no official statistical information estimating the size of the Rusyn population in Ukraine and the 2001 Ukrainian census did not permit citizens to choose Rusyn as their ethnic identity (RFE/RL 14 Jan. 2003).
Unofficial estimates of the Rusyn population in the Transcarpathian region report between 600,000 and 800,000 persons (Washington Times 27 Oct. 2003; RIMC 2003a, 1; ibid. 2003b; ibid. 2003c, 1; UNPO n.d.; RFE/RL 14 Jan. 2003; ibid. 28 June 1999; CER 20 Nov. 2000). The official 2001 population of region is 1,258,000 people (Law 20 June 2003); therefore, Rusyn would make up dominant ethnic group in Transcarpathia (CER 20 Nov. 2000; RIMC 2003c). According to RIMC estimates from 1990, the largest concentrations of the minority are in the cities of Užhorod (117,000 persons) and Mukačevo (86,000 persons), while Chust, Berehovo, Vynohradiv, Svaljava, Rachiv and Tjačiv have populations of between 10,000 and 35,000 people (2003a, 2).
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/type,QUERYRESPONSE,IRBC,UKR,403dd2220,0. html
Nathan: porzeczka not after tens of years of being forced to be 'Ukrainians', discrimination, banning Rusyn language, refusal to acknowledge Rusyns' existence, and no hope for own state or even autonomy. There is no ban on any language in Ukraine whatsoever.
And? It does not mean Rusyn language wasn't banned under communist rule, which was said in the quote I posted earlier.
Nathan: Voloshyn, which you try so eagerly to present as anti-Rusin Ukrainian was a co-founder of Rusin newspaper "Nauka", wrote a treatise "O pys'mennom iazyci podkarpads'kych rusinow" (1921), "Oborona Kyrylyky". Encyclopedia of Rusyn history and culture by P. Magocsi et I. Pop, p.534-36; Voloshyn prepared for Rusyn schools a series of primers and grammars
It was 17 years before he started governing Sub-Carpathian Rus. He was pro-Ukrainian and decided to ally himself with Ukrainian Nationalists, in result his government became a marionette in their hands.
Just one example:
During the short-lived autonomous government (1938- 1939) under Avhustyn *Voloshyn, the gymnasia that remained within, or were transferred to, territory still part of Subcarpathian Rus'/*Carpatho-Ukraine were ukrainianized.
Why otherwise would he have allowed it?
The governing system of Carpatho-Ukraine was greatly influenced by members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), who in turn were closely linked to Nazi Germany. The OUN intended to transform Carpatho-Ukraine into the Piedmont, or what it described as “the pure kernel” (krystalizatsiine iadro), of an independent Greater Ukraine (Soborna Ukraina).
From the same source as yours.
Nathan: But your speculations of WHAT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED are simply out of place.
That's your opinion.
Nathan: porzeczka: Hungarians wouldn't have done anything without German approval. And? Why keep a 1/4 million army for 5 months at the border then? They knew what they were doing and everything was long ago prearranged. Plus, it changes nothing. Hungary invaded Carpatho-Ukraine in 1939.
Hungarians, who were German allies, were kept on the border in case of war between Germany and Czechoslovakia. Voloshyn had Hitler's approval from the very beginning of his rule in Sub-Carpathian Rus, and together with Ukrainian nationalists counted on German protection in case of the conflict. They miscalculated.
Nathan: When we talk about Polish Concentration Camp Bereza Kartuska....
I didn't mean specific examples, but policies/methods in general. I wrote that the scale was smaller.
Nathan: porzeczka: Dumen? Why do you insist on calling it a prison? Because Dumen prison which had 15-30 inmates
You should call it a detention camp, only later explaining conditions in which detainees were kept and the number of them. BK was classified as a camp because of the fact that people were imprisoned there without trial. So either stick to the definition of internment/camp, or Bereza was a prison too.
Nathan: Polish Concentration Camp Bereza Kartuska and hundreds of Ukrainians, Germans, Bielorusins and other nationalities who died there.
I hope you have credible sources supporting this claim.
Nathan: Catholic churches were rare if not non-existant before 1600 in Volyn and other parts of Ukraine. Most of the churches Uniates got after the Brest came from the Orthodox temples already in place. You claim that these churches were "tool of Russification" and were "Ukrainian" in quotation marks, which I can't comprehend how that was even possible..
Churches were built for hundreds of years after the Brest Union and under Tsar. Regarding Catholic churches transferred 'back' by Russian authorities into Orthodox temples; do you believe that during Russian rule those churches were not under effective control/influence of the Russian Orthodox Church, and that in the first decades of 20th century, the sermons/services in those churches were not conducted rather in Russian than in Ukrainian language?
Origin of the churches and ethnicity of the people who prayed in them are just two elements.
Interesting quote:
By the early nineteenth century, the Orthodox Church in Ukraine was transformed into the most potent instrument of Russification and a major obstacle to the Ukrainian national revival movement. The Uniate Church, once viewed by the Cossacks as a Polish inspired device of destruction of Ukrainian identity and freedom, emerged under enlightenment Hapsburg rule as the bearer and defender of Ukrainian identity and, eventually, as major force in nation building. The short-lived experience in building Ukrainian statehood between 1917 and 1921 demonstrated the profound difference in the attitudes of the two churches to Ukrainian independence. After the collapse of tsarist rule, the Russian Orthodox episcopate, monasteries, and theological schools in Ukraine became the most implacable enemies of Ukrainian political independence and authocephaly, equating them with betrayal of Orthodoxy.
The politics of religion in Russia and the new states of Eurasia, Michael Bourdeaux, 1995
Nathan: And put in BOLD also "in a wrong place"? Don't accuse me in something you like to spend your time in then.
Nathan: P.S. There are some sentences printed in bold. I have no idea why and couldn't find in my edit option; so, don't take them as patronizing or disrespectful.
You don't have to use edit option, you can write/cut/copy/post (paste) single tags and modify their position. Your reaction is too much.
Nathan: Now you are patronizing. As soon as I tried to be polite, you started to climb my back.
You tried to be polite when it was already too late.
Nathan: If you want, we can keep on discussing this topic, Porzeczka. I don't see why not. I might not be here as often with my replies as before, but I am definitely interested :)
We have no respect towards each other, and our discussion comes down to assuming bad faith and searching for mistakes of the other person - there is no other way to continue it.
I promised myself that this is my last comment to you, Nathan. Do what you want, but don't expect my answer.
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