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England's relations with Poland


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David_18Threads: 111
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 Jun 24, 10, 15:03    #1
All too often examples of how the Polish people and their illustrious history go overlooked or altogether neglected from any historical mentions, save, their being overrun by the Blitzkrieg in 1939. It’s as if only mere mentions of how Poland suffered are allowed to be openly discussed, if at all, which is usually overshadowed by the suffering of others who were not Polish during WWII (thanks to Hitler, Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt). ‘Confined to Quarters’ is a description used here, to illustrate where Polish history is usually kept when it is excluded from film and history books outside of Poland itself by others who seem to want to keep it that way.
Following, however, are examples from earlier Polish History with some selected excerpts from Arthur L. Waldo’s book ‘Jamestown True Heroes’, of, in this case, (also overlooked or ignored), how England relied heavily upon Poland and/ or the well-known relationship between the two countries historically, which continually goes unacknowledged and undocumented in ‘modern’ ‘period’ films and historical accounts. Complaining about this ongoing occurrence usually tends to fall on deaf ears outside of the Polish demographic in general. So, here is one small attempt to bring such rarely-known history to the eyes and ears of the curious and/or unknowing non-Polish society in hopes to better educate those who weren’t familiar with this information

Enjoy!!!

Anglo-Polish trading continued, while kings and queens were changing in both countries. The so-called “English-American period” began when Queen Elizabeth I (1558-1603) became reigning Queen of England. But the Anglo-Polish relations remained the same. The dependency of Elizabethan England on trade with Poland is best characterized by the English diplomatic maneuvering in 1590. Through its envoy in Turkey, Edward Burton, England attempted to convince the sultan to give up his plans of attacking Poland because England needed many Polish products indispensable to the English fleet. In reference to the above, a letter from William Cecil to Lord Talbot dated October 23, 1590, read: “The Turk, had not he been prevented by our Ambassador, intended to set upon the King of Poland (Zygmunt III, 1587-1632) with 60,000 men; but, understanding her Majesty had great many things from the country (Poland) necessary for her navy, he withdrew his force, though he was assured of victory, only for Her Majesty’s sake, who received great thanks from the King of Poland.” 1

“Poland, grain arsenal of Europe” (pg.34)
Not only the observations of diplomats and merchants, but also of the English travelers who spent longer visits in Poland, underlined the importance of Poland’s trading with England. Of these observations two deserve to be mentioned here. One by Fynes Moryson in 1593 2, and another by William Bruce in 1598, 3 both expressing their amazement at Poland’s wealth of natural resources. In the statement of the first we find that “Poland is the common granary and arsenal of Europe for tackling and appraile (apparel) of shopping!” in the words of the other (F. Moryson, op.cit., vol. IV, p.69) we find that Poland “is so abundeth with grain and pastures, as it supplies all Europe with grain,” besides, of course, many other products. Because of the frequent wars in Europe, some Englishmen thought it proper for England to search for her own sources of needed materials. Two decades before the actual founding of Virginia, Richard Hakluyt argued that a colony in America could supply the “whole realme” of England with all such materials as those looked for in Poland and other Baltic states. 4 Nevertheless, imports from Poland continued, even after the Jamestown settlement was in operation, as the following documents well attest.

“Kingdom’s welfare depends on Poland” (pg. 34)
During the Swedish-Polish Thirty-Year War, especially in the face of the complete overpowering of Poland by the Swedish army, England showed her serious worry over the fate of her Baltic trading. Some light regarding this situation comes from the well-informed and reliable reports of the Venice envoys. One of them wrote on December 14, 1627, from England to his government that any further development of the war in Poland may curtail the delivery of raw products, essential in England’s shipbuilding. 5
At the same time A. Contarini, another Venice envoy, wrote that if the Swedes win complete control over the Baltic, England will not be able to continue building its fleet. 6
A similar point of view was expressed by the English government in a letter to Thomas Roe at the end of 1629. The letter shows that the basic motive for the English mediation in the Polish-Swedish conflict was the assurance of safe English trading with Poland. 7
The reason for such great interest in Poland and other Baltic or eastern states is obvious. All English historians admit that the survival of England depended on trading with Eastland, mainly Poland and Muscovy. Such opinion was repeatedly voiced in Poland during the reign of King Zygmunt III by the English diplomat, Thomas Roe, who, in his report to London in 1631 wrote: “The trade of the Baltic Sea is as the root of all other marine trade, and lyes hid in the baseness of the commoditye, yet all the beautiful fruits of navigation are supplyed from it in the materials for shipping.” 8
In another letter in the same year Roe added: “The Poland and Eastland business is of that nature that the welfare and standing of our Kingdome and State dependeth from it…The Eastland Company bringeth home thence (Poland and other Baltic states) such returns without which England cannot subside, for all the materials for the building of shippes as pitche, tarr, cordage., cometh out of the Eastland.” 9
These opinions corroborate the dramatic words of Oliver Cromwell expressed in the English parliament in 1653 during the English war with Holland: “If they (the Hollanders) cut us off from the Baltic and become its masters, what will happen to our commerce? Where will we find all materials needed for the preservation of our navigation?” 10

The trading Kings and Queens. (pg. 35-36)
Throughout the period, between 1380 (when English merchants first won the right to settle in Gdańsk) and 1607 (when English colonists first settled in Jamestown, Virginia), that is, during 227 years, 14 kings and three queens of England directed the mercantile trading with 12 kings and 1 queen of Poland.

English settlers in Poland. (pg. 47)
Consequently, a considerable number of English and Scotch merchants settled permanently in Elbląg. Their trade contributed to that Polish city’s growth, and the merchants themselves were gradually assimilated, some of them being destined to play an eminent part in the Polish political and cultural life in Elbląg. All of them learned to speak fluent Polish. Many moved and steeled down as far south as Kraków. Altogether, as the years passed, over 30,000 English and Scotch settlers made Poland their permanent home. Most of their descendants completely lost their English or Scotch identity together with their native language. 12

“Poland House” and “Poland Street” in London. (pg. 51)
How close the Anglo-Polish relations were in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries may well be illustrated by the fact that one street in the Old London downtown section was named “Poland Street,” which connected with the famous Oxford Street. Located on Poland Street was the “Poland House”, a hotel filled with Polish traveling agents, also serving as temporary quarters of two Polish Ambassadors, Ossoliński and Zamoyski during Elizabeth’s reign, and of other Polish envoys before them.
A certain period of the “Polish House” embassy must have been rather stormy because of business differences in Anglo-Polish relations. There were many references concerning these problems contained in English and Polish documents of that time. Conflict arose over some English ships interference with Polish ships’ traffic at sea. Although speaking in Latin, Ambassador Zbigniew Ossoliński (1555-1623), educated in Poland, Italy, France and Germany, minced no words in his personal report to Queen Elizabeth. Only because Elizabeth answered Ossoliński in Latin, the audience became recorded in the official papers of England. Lytton Strachey describes it thus: 13

Polish noble crosses words with Elizabeth. (pp. 53-54) *
“An ambassador had arrived from Poland—a magnificent personage, in a long robe of black velvet with jeweled buttons, whom Elizabeth received in state. (in front of the entire court). Sitting on her throne, with her ladies, her councilors, and her noblemen about her, she graciously gave ear to the envoy’s elaborate harangue. He spoke in Latin, extremely well, it appeared. Then, as she listened, amazement seized her. This was not at all what she had expected. Hardly a compliment—instead, protestations, remonstrance’s, criticisms---was it possible?—threats! She was lectured for presumption, rebuked for destroying the commerce of Poland, and actually informed that his Polish Majesty would put up with her proceedings no longer.
“Amazement gave way to fury. When the man at last stopped, she instantly leapt to her feet. “ <<Expectavi orationem,>> she exclaimed, <<mihi vero querelam adduxisti!>>--and proceeded, without a pause, to pour out a rolling flood of vituperative Latin, in which reproof, indignation, and sarcastic pleasantries followed one after another with astonishing volubility. Her eyes flashed, her voice grated and thundered. Those around her were in ecstasy; with all their knowledge of her accomplishments, this was something quite new—this prodigious power of ex tempore eloquence in a learned tongue. The unlucky Ambassador was overwhelmed. “At last, when she had rounded her last period, she paused for a moment, and then turned to her courtiers: “<<By God’s death, my lords! >> she said with a smile of satisfaction, <<I have been forced this day to scour up my old Latin which hath lain long rusting! >>
“”Afterwards she sent for Robert Cecil (Secretary of State, a Privy Councillor and principal ,minister to Queen Elizabeth) and told him that she wished Robert Devereux, Earl of Essex, (from 1588 the favorite of Queen Elizabeth), had been there to hear her Latin. Cecil tactfully promised that he would send the Earl a full account of what had passed. He did so, and the details of the curious scene have reached posterity, too, in his letter.”
The Queen was so pleased with herself, she ordered her Captains to leave the Polish ships alone. The Polish cargo was to be paid for, not stolen, the pirate way. On learning what the Queen said in English and of her order to spare the Polish ships for the sake of English economy, Ambassador Ossoliński commented: “I am glad that my lesson in Latin, given to the Queen, worked so successfully both ways.” The verbatim texts of conversations between rulers and ambassadors rarely entered official records in the distant past, unless the ambassadors spoke boldly and minced no words in defense of their countries’ interests as did Ossoliński. Prepossessingly polite diplomacy is passed over unmentioned, unrecorded, and…disappointing. In connection with “Poland House” and “Poland Street,” it should be noted that at that early stage there were over some 50 Poles living in London. The “Poland House” ceased to exist some time ago, but Poland Street remains and reminds the present Polish inhabitants of London of the exciting times the early Poles spent in “bloody England”.

Seems like the Poles and the Brits shares a common history.


You can find more at \/
http://tribes.tribe.net/renfairehistorysnobs/thread/83031e3b-f1ec-4507 -98bd-ae2e0273ddd9

MatowyThreads: 1
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 Jun 24, 10, 16:25    #2
David_18:
Seems like the Poles and the Brits shares a common history.

So do all countries, it's nothing remarkable.
David_18Threads: 111
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Edited by: Moderator  Jun 24, 10, 16:48    #3
Matowy:
So do all countries, it's nothing remarkable.


Ok then tell me. What does Estonia and Tanzania have in common "Historically".

Let's not change the topic. Thank you.

David_18Threads: 111
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 Jun 24, 10, 22:35    #4
Anyway does the english/polish school teach you anything about the historical connections between Poland and England?

And has anyone been at the Poland Street in London? Is it nice?
NorthMancPolakThreads: 6
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Edited by: NorthMancPolak  Jun 24, 10, 22:43    #5
David_18:
And has anyone been at the Poland Street in London? Is it nice?


it's nothing special, just a typical central London sidestreet really - full of offices and crazy motorcycle couriers trying to kill everyone, lol.

Berwick & Wardour Streets are nearby, which are far better.

I used to go to the Yo! Sushi along there, though. And Black Market Records nearby, of course :)
AmathystThreads: 30
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 Jun 24, 10, 22:48    #6
David_18:
And has anyone been at the Poland Street in London? Is it nice?


Have you been to Greek Street? Its slightly more famous! (where's that Southern when you need him!)
David_18Threads: 111
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 Jun 24, 10, 22:49    #7
NorthMancPolak:
it's nothing special, just a typical central London sidestreet really


Does the "Poland house" still exist?
AmathystThreads: 30
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 Jun 24, 10, 22:50    #8
David_18:
Does the "Poland house" still exist?


Its student accommodation.
David_18Threads: 111
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 Jun 24, 10, 23:46    #9
Amathyst:
Its student accommodation.


No way!!!!!
AmathystThreads: 30
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Edited by: Amathyst  Jun 24, 10, 23:51    #10
http://www.accommodationforstudents.com/largerprivatestudenthousing/lp hs.asp?id=20

David_18:
No way!!!!!


Yes way :D

This was built in 1966 so its possibly not the one you were thinking of, but something built on the site where the other building stood..I'll see if I can find anything out..
NorthMancPolakThreads: 6
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 Jun 24, 10, 23:53    #11
Amathyst:
where's that Southern when you need him!


on the streets, pimping, probably :)
David_18Threads: 111
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 Jun 24, 10, 23:54    #12
Amathyst:
Yes way :D


Well that has to be some new building right?

Can't be the original one from the 16'th century :P
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 Jun 24, 10, 23:57    #13
NorthMancPolak:
on the streets, pimping, probably :)


I know, look I take it back about Poland Street, William Blake was born there..
NorthMancPolakThreads: 6
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 Jun 24, 10, 23:59    #14
Amathyst:
I know, look I take it back about Poland Street, William Blake was born there..


Greek Street is just off Old Compton Street - I'm sure a few people on here would say that's the perfect place for Southern, haha ;)
AmathystThreads: 30
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 Jun 25, 10, 00:02    #15
NorthMancPolak:
Greek Street is just off Old Compton Street - I'm sure a few people on here would say that's the perfect place for Southern, haha ;)


He'd be in heaven..
David_18Threads: 111
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 Jun 25, 10, 21:30    #16
Amathyst:
He'd be in heaven..


Everyone knows that heaven lays in Bahamas.... Or Saint tropez!!!



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