EU or Russian Empire, who taking/took more from Poland and Poles?

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Oct 25, 10, 21:19 #1
Philosophical question- EU or Russian Empire, who taking/took more from Poland and Poles? so, what you people think?

StuThreads: 27 Posts: 1,109 Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂	Oct 25, 10, 21:31 #2
http://thenews.pl/business/?id=140485 - Poland biggest beneficiary of EU funds http://thenews.pl/business/?id=141642 - EU subisidies for Polish farmers’ exotic crops http://thenews.pl/business/?id=141560 - EIB money for Poland (Stu: although these are loans) I don't think Russia (or even the former Soviet Union for that matter) has ever given Poland anything. They only took away.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Oct 25, 10, 21:36 #3
people, people This isn`t about giving but about taking. So please, stay on topic Stu: They only took away. be more specific

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Oct 25, 10, 21:38 #4
I think the most important thing to take into account is that Poland democratically entered a union with other European states to form the EU. Poland has never democratically entered a union with Russia.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Oct 25, 10, 21:39 #5
Crow: This isn`t about giving but about taking. So please, stay on topic The E.U. took 2 million Poles into their labour force.

ShortHairThugThreads: - Posts: 1,375 Joined: May 1, 09 ♂	Oct 25, 10, 21:44 #6
SeanBM: The E.U. took 2 million Poles into their labour force. Russia on the other hand, took countless millions into their labour force (gulag system) be it during the Czar or Commie system. ;)

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Oct 25, 10, 21:47 #7
what i know from history, Russian Empire took some number of Poles and relocated them to Siberia. Is there any specific number? SeanBM: The E.U. took 2 million Poles into their labour force. Thank you. Finally answer on the line of topic SB, when you mentioned.... what are current trends? Are Poles still leaving Poland and migrate for EU countries, attracted with all kind of things?

♂

Oct 25, 10, 21:52 #8

ShortHairThug:

Russia on the other hand, took countless millions into their labour force (gulag system) be it during the Czar or Commie system. ;)

That's just beautiful, in a sick and distorted way, which makes it absolutely on topic :)

Crow:

what i know from history, Russian Empire took some number of Poles and relocated them to Siberia. Is there any specific number?

The ones who actually survived the journey?

First rail transport of Polish soldiers left Rembertów for Siberia on March 25, 1945. It consisted of more than a thousand people, of whom some 25% died on the way. The dead were carried to a special rail car, attached to the last one. It was forbidden to bury them as, according to Soviet regulations, the number of people at the destination had to be the same as the number of people at the starting point.

Attack on the NKVD Camp in Rembertów(Wiki)

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Edited by: Crow Oct 25, 10, 21:54 #9
what is with resources? who pump/pumped more resources out of Poland? ShortHairThug: Russia on the other hand, took countless millions into their labour force (gulag system) millions? that much?

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Edited by: Mr Grunwald Oct 25, 10, 22:38 #10
Crow: millions? that much? It is a REASON that most Poles have always looked negative towards Poland's eastern neighbor

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Oct 25, 10, 22:48 #11
Mr Grunwald: It is a REASON that most Poles have always looked negative towards Poland's eastern neighbor its a good REASON. i understand that.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Edited by: Crow Oct 26, 10, 00:05 #12
there are rumors that EU presidency needs to cost Poland 110 million euro in 2011. If that could be truth, its robbery and could be very good example for this thread. Its definitely- taking something from Poland.

♂

Oct 26, 10, 00:08 #13

Crow:

there are rumors that EU presidency needs to cost Poland 110 million euro in 2011. If that could be truth, its robbery

There is a thread about this already.

65,000,000,000
- 110,000,000
=
Crow, please come rob me like the EU has robbed Poland!

Again, it was voluntary. Poland doesn't have to take presidency of the EU, they could for instance give it to Slovenia which seems to be able to afford it.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Oct 26, 10, 00:11 #14
convex: 65,000,000,000 - 110,000,000 yes, i know. Germany, France and Britain invest convex: Again, it was voluntary. voluntary? you know, it could be another philosophical question.

♂

Oct 26, 10, 00:14 #15

Crow:

yes, i know. Germany, France and Britain invest

In roads, airports, schools, power plants, water works, dams, shiny new rescue helicopters, radar for ATC, courthouses....

that 65b is for infrastructure, not private investment.

Crow:

voluntary? you know, it could be another philosophical question.

Asking your people if they want to be a part, majority says yes, I'd say that's as voluntary as you could get.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Oct 26, 10, 00:19 #16
Crow, Russians took away much of the Polish spirit. However, we must pinch ourselves as a reminder that communism was entered into by Stalin but not done away with upon his death. Poles had communists within their ranks too. What has the EU taken away from Poland? We know what they have been given (generally good things) but taken away? Some autonomy but all signatories are in that position.

nottThreads: 6 Posts: 1,271 Joined: Jun 2, 10 ♂	Oct 26, 10, 00:43 #17
convex: Asking your people if they want to be a part, majority says yes, Yeah. I remember that deluge of propaganda.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Oct 26, 10, 00:48 #18
nott: Yeah. I remember that deluge of propaganda. So the Polish people are too stupid to decide things for themselves? People were coerced into voting yes? How so? I'd be interested to see what kind of propaganda there was, and how the reality is different now 6 years on.

♂

Oct 26, 10, 01:19 #19

convex:

So the Polish people are too stupid to decide things for themselves?

Don't you know about democracy?

convex:

I'd be interested to see what kind of propaganda there was

Nauseating, in the best commie traditions. The resulting majority was not too big either.

convex:

how the reality is different now 6 years on.

Now it's different. People see the benefits of free labour movement. People can't see the benefits of prices equalising.

♂

Oct 26, 10, 01:24 #20

nott:

Don't you know about democracy?

Bless you for that :)

nott:

Nauseating, in the best commie traditions. The resulting majority was not too big either.

Nearly 80% voted "tak" that day with over a 50% turnout...

nott:

Now it's different. People see the benefits of free labour movement. People can't see the benefits of prices equalising.

Of course, the problem is that price equalization happened much quicker than salary equalization. On the other hand, people see it as a success that the NBP dropped the value of the zloty in order to keep growth positive over the last couple of years. Self made pain?

♂

Oct 26, 10, 01:36 #21

convex:

Nearly 80% voted "tak" that day with over a 50% turnout...

I'd say you might be right, actually. Just don't call it 'the people's choice'.

convex:

nott: Now it's different. People see the benefits of free labour movement. People can't see the benefits of prices equalising.

Of course, the problem is that price equalization happened much quicker than salary equalization. On the other hand, people see it as a success that the NBP dropped the value of the zloty in order to keep growth positive over the last couple of years. Self made pain?

I'm no good at macroeconomics, I must admit. For me the growth is more of an artefact than actual thing. Weak zloty encourages export of labour mostly, and I'd rather keep those people home, working in their professions rather than washing dishes abroad.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Oct 26, 10, 01:39 #22
nott: Just don't call it 'the people's choice'. Who's choice was it? nott: Weak zloty encourages export of labour mostly, and I'd rather keep those people home, working in their professions rather than washing dishes abroad. And I agree. Thank the NBP for that.

nottThreads: 6 Posts: 1,271 Joined: Jun 2, 10 ♂	Oct 26, 10, 01:44 #23
convex: nott: Just don't call it 'the people's choice'. Who's choice was it? Politicians'. New better troughs.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Oct 26, 10, 01:48 #24
nott: Politicians'. New better troughs. you do have to admit that the turn out was incredibly high. Do we fault that the politicians that the people are fickle and stop caring after the vote is done?

nottThreads: 6 Posts: 1,271 Joined: Jun 2, 10 ♂	Oct 26, 10, 01:51 #25
convex: you do have to admit that the turn out was incredibly high. Do we fault that the politicians that the people are fickle and stop caring after the vote is done? The turnout was a result of propaganda. Then the propaganda stopped, not needed any more. There's no way out of the EU.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Oct 26, 10, 01:53 #26
nott: The turnout was a result of propaganda. Then the propaganda stopped, not needed any more. There's no way out of the EU. Sure there is, the Lisbon treaty formalized it.

nottThreads: 6 Posts: 1,271 Joined: Jun 2, 10 ♂	Oct 26, 10, 01:57 #27
convex: Sure there is, the Lisbon treaty formalized it. Really? Good :)

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Oct 26, 10, 01:59 #28
nott: Really? Good :) Yup, but I think it would be a bit, ahem, devastating in the short term. By short term, I mean, the next 10 or so years...then, if, and only if, Poland can elect a competent government, than maybe you'd see benefits of not being a member of the EU.

♂

Oct 26, 10, 02:12 #29

convex:

Yup, but I think it would be a bit, ahem, devastating in the short term. By short term, I mean, the next 10 or so years...then, if, and only if, Poland can elect a competent government, than maybe you'd see benefits of not being a member of the EU.

I'd agree. Only I am aware of those 20 years already wasted. Back then people were ready for shock treatment and they saw how it translates into day by day improvement.

Your point about the government is spot on.

♂

Edited by: jwojcie Oct 26, 10, 12:32 #30

About EU I would like only to post some graphics (tells more than thousands words ;-))
It's about small part of general picture but imporant part. It's about circulatory system of economy. It's about highways & motorways :-) In much of you can see some EU funds are involved, of course only some percent of an overall cost. Of course many of those roads below are builded by western companies, but many are builded by Polish ones, and some small part even by Chinese...

Current state of highways and motorways in Poland (only this, without smaller class roads), state on 17.10.2010, map created by Moloch, esce, latajacy dywan from skyscrapper forum:

Legend:
Green - existing
Red - in bulding
Purple - design
Yellow & Brown - tender
Blue - environment decision (quite important papers)

Highways and motorways in building (only this, without smaller class roads), state on 10.2010, created by toonczyk from skyscrapper forum:

Legend: black is sum of all classes

Highways and motorways existing and in building (only this, without smaller class roads), state on 10.2010, created by sliwers from skyscrapper forum:

Legend: green existing, red in building

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