How far can Jews go to promote their ethnocentric myths?

In another thread, I had to devote considerable time to oppose an attempt to peddle a revisionist, ethnocentric version of history (i.e. the thesis that Jews in Poland were maliciously denied the opportunity to integrate with the rest of the society). But this has not been a wasted time. I learned that:

1. "Ethnic historians" can ignore sources and common sense at will, as long as it serves the purpose of "proving" a given thesis.
2. The other thing I learned is much more serious. Others were suggesting that participating in such threads is just feeding trolls, and is not worth our time. I disagree. While researching the subject, I learned, to my profound astonishment, that not treating certain Jewish national myths with due reverence had cost Prof. Norman Davies his tenure at Stanford. This is an old story, but not widely known. Who is going to publicize it in Poland, after all? Michnik? Anne Applebaum did:


So, this is more than just intellectual discourse. Peddling Jewish myths involves attempts to destroy peoples' careers, and let me underscore - we are talking about a mainstream historian, not some Nazi apologist. At this point I do not know how to react.

Tell us - what was the actions of the Polish State between 1935 and 1939 when it came to deliberate, malicious attempts to deny Jews their opportunity to integrate?

I suspect I'll be waiting a long time to hear a valid defence of why Poland placed artificial quotas on Jewish (and Ukrainian) people.



Ah yes, the Polish Plague. Particularly common among those who also contribute to Rydzyk's empire, or perhaps Gazeta Polska.



Now, given that Davies is well known by most people to be rather sympathetic to the Polish cause and is known to gloss over the less savory aspects - don't you think that perhaps they might, maybe, just have had a point?

Davies is loved in Poland precisely because he's a foreigner who subscribes to their point of view rather than being impartial. If he told the nasty truth, warts and all - his books would be hated in Poland.



You do realise that "destroying people's careers" for not publishing the right thing has been practised in Poland for years and years, and still goes on? I'm sure you, as a historian, do not need lectured about how the last government dealt with opposition.

Ah, and now Anne Applebaum must also be declared an "anti-semite". The companion is getting better and better.

Correction: "the company" of course.

delphiandomine, your claims that Poles, and the Welshman Norman Davies, are biased with regard to Polish history and that Poles destroy each other's careers because of these biases, do absolutely nothing to answer this thread's question which is "How far can Jews go to promote their ethnocentric myths?"

If Norman Davies really was denied tenure for failure to properly kowtow to Jewish ethnocentric mythology, then he is not alone, see the story below of Norman Finkelstein's denial of tenure at DePaul.
http://fanonite.org/2007/06/09/norman-finkelstein-denied-tenure/

Perhaps answering the remarks would make sense.

Of course, the fact that she's married to a Pole, a very prominent one at that would mean that she would be totally impartial, right? As much as I like her as a person, and for being clued up - she's not exactly an independent commentator.

(one thing that's very amusing - all this focus on Jews, and yet Jews play no part in Polish life today)

One big problem with Polish history is the lack of impartiality, on both sides.

The issue of the Jewish unwillingness to integrate had been discussed elsewhere, the link was provided. I also addressed the issue of quotas, using the comparison to both past and present affirmative action policies. If you want to discuss something specific, start your own thread. In this one, I want to address the issue of suppressing the academic discourse and purposefully damaging the careers of non-conforming, mainstream researchers.

As for Applebaum: you are suggesting that being married to a Pole influences Applebaum's impartiality. Yet you are without a doubt totally unwilling to accept the notion that being a Jew, raised in the atmosphere of anti-Polish hate and educated within the context of pseudo-historical anti-Polish myths, may influence someone's impartiatlity. Have I guessed correctly? Have you noticed the double standard here?



Please kindly note that this thread is a response to another thread that implies "Polish Christians' lies". So, whose focus is it? You don't expect that peddling certain revisionist views will remain conveniently unchallenged, do you?



This is the general problem with "soft" science. In natural sciences we have the comfort of empirical verification: if a theory is a garbage, hypotheses based on it fail the empirical validation. In social sciences, the point-of-view approach is permissible. Arguably, too much so.

Really?

Okay, perhaps you would care to address the issue of how Jewish individuals were pushed out of Polish universities in the 30's? Go ahead.



I think you're over exaggerating the importance of Poland to the vast majority of Jews. Poland is a minor European country to most of them, they really couldn't care less about what it does or who it is. Then again, that's a typical Polish thing - imagining that everyone else thinks that Poland is bigger/badder/worse than it really is. Poland - as I'm fond of saying - is nothing but a minor European country that's rather poor compared to most EU countries. It's not a heavyweight, it's not an object of attention - and we like it that way.

Incidentally, where is your proof that Applebaum was "raised in the atmosphere of anti-Polish hate"? Or is this just more emotive language, straight from Gazeta Polska after her husband mocked the Dear Leader one too many times?

And yes, I'm willing to bet that her husband has had far more influence on her views than some imaginary hate connected with her religion.



I think it's just another example of how those with links to dubious Dmowski-types will stop at nothing to try and prove that somehow, Jews are responsible for all the bad things in Poland. All this "THEY MUST BE CHALLENGED" hype is somewhat par for the course, especially as no attempt is made to admit responsibility for anything that Poland might have done.



Indeed, and I think it's why most people who are totally unattached to Poland steer clear of discussing Polish issues on a serious academic level.

I actually had one wise professor (an expert on Slavonic studies, as it happened) who said that Polish history is far more complex than anything that ever happened in the Balkans, and I'm inclined to believe him.

Under the same rationale that in contemporary United States (and elsewhere) is called "affirmative action". In the U.S., by the way, it also affects Jews, who normally, due to valuing education, normally tend to be overrepresented in academia. I am not 100% sure, but I think the landmark lawsuit challenging this discrimination (in Michigan) was brought by a Jewish student. Will I make a mistake if I guess that you are an advocate of AA? (for the record, I am NOT). My point is: as much as I am strongly against ANY quota, the Polish policies were not unique enough to claim any unique persecution of Jews by bad Poles. To make such claims one has to uniquely hate Poles.

Davies was discriminated against not because of his ethnicity, not because he expressed any controversial views, but simply because he didn't cater with an acceptable level of zeal to American-Jewish bigotry.



I will gladly stop exaggerating. I only need one thing: stoping seeing hateful lies. Also, if sacrificing the academic integrity is a worthy means (the Davies' case), then perhaps this importance is not so small, after all.



Incidentally, where is my suggestion that she was? Perhaps I need to repeat my reasoning in Polish, to avoid any possible language barrier (I hope the Mod will not mind, it's redundant, just a clarification of the earlier reasoning): Podważasz wiarygodność Applebaum argumentem, że Jej mąż jest Polakiem. Nie ośmielisz się jednak podważyć wiarygodności historyka Holocaustu, który przypadkiem jest amerykańskim Żydem (z potencjalnymi uprzedzeniami etnicznymi charkterystycznymi dla tego środowiska) na podobnej zasadzie. Zgadłem?



Specifically, the discussed thread was about the allegations that Poland, as a rule, did not permit the willing Jews to integrate, and now Poles rationalize by "inventing lies" about the "alleged" Jewish unwilingness to integrate. Dismiss the evidence as "Dmowski-type" as much as you want (even if this includes Isaac Singer's quotes - another "endek"?), but perhaps you would be willing to address the quotes from strictly JEWISH sources that testify to the culturally-mandated hostility of Jews toward the idea of assimilation?
polishforums.com/history-poland-34/have-polish-christians-been-making- up-lies-polish-jews-56115/2/ post #54.



This subject is "radioactive". The Davies' Stanford tenure case illustrates what may happen to non-conforming people. You may also want to google Lynne Olson, Standley Cloud and John Whiteclay Chambers II - I would normally provide a link, but I am not logged in and PF does not permit. Or, let me try without htt...
polish-jewish-heritage.org/Eng/mar_03_review.htm
If you scroll down, you will find a rebuttal by yet another "anti-semite" - Władysław Bartoszewski...

In short, Olson and Cloud were chastised by prof. Chambers for not devoting a "proper attention" to the issue of Polish anti-semitism in their book concerned with the WWII history of the Polish Air Force. Want more? Google Saul Rubinek. This came up completely accidentally a few weeks ago - I am a big fan of Warehouse 13 and of Rubinek's. His parents were saved by Polish farmers, and he dared to make a movie about it, without sufficiently underscoring the "Polish complicity in the Holocaust". The descendants of the people who spent the war safely in Brooklyn were lecturing a descendant of actual Holocaust survivors about what is the "correct" history he should have presented - see the irony? The pressure to peddle the virulently anti-Polish myth is so strong that professional historians are afraid to touch the subject, because this would endanger either their professional integrity, or their careers.

Now, is it still worth challenging? I argue that it is, because these hateful myths create the self-amplifying mechanism of Polish-Jewish resentments.

seems like your just jealous of us jews ;P
move on with your lives maybe even get a hobbie, chess is nice

sure then stay the hell out of culture and do not practice Jewish terrorism or Zionism

That of course being a thesis which is proved by inconvenient truths such as:
Jews being forced to sit only in special sections of university lecture rooms;
Jews having their access to higher education limited;
Jews being banned from joining the bar association, thus making it impossible for them to practise law;
Jews being banned from joining the medical association, thus making it impossible for them to practise medicine;
Jews being banned from civil service jobs;
Jewish language schools being shut down;
Government ministers openly making anti-semitic statement;
the Polish government forming a committee to investigate the 'Madagascar plan' (which was enthusiastically picked up by the Nazis and led to the Nisko und Lublin plan, which then led to the final solution).


You mean like, for example, a historian who in book provides no source for citations from war diaries of the Ninth Army? Or perhaps a historian who manages the impressive trick of referring to material from an archive which does not exist?


a) Davies didn't get tenure there because of scientific flaws in his work. Remember the historian who refers to material from an archive which does not exist? That was Davies; years after the Stanford debace.
b) That Poles took part in the holocaust is not a myth: it is a fact.


You mean the same Olson & Cloud who insist in the prologue of their book with reference to the London victory parade "For they were all Polish -- and Poles who had fought under British command were deliberately and specifically barred from the celebration by the British government, for fear of offending Joseph Stalin." ? What were you saying about "Ethnic historians" who ignore sources?


I do love the way that you whine about ethnocentric myths but still try to perpetuate the same.

Harry: b) That Poles took part in the holocaust is not a myth: it is a fact.

And the nonsense you have written is simply subordinate to proving this "fact". One can debunk this garbage over and over and it still resurfaces, simply because it is needed. Why garbage? Because you won't, for example, tell that Jews had their own trade associations, and were not barred from their professions. You wont tell that "limiting the access to higher education" was based on no different principles than the PRESENT day affirmative action in the U.S. You won't tell anything that would let someone draw a conclusion that your Jewish whining is based on selectively presented, absurdly exaggerated claims, subordinate to one thing: to fabricating your victimhood and to rationalizing your bigotry toward Poles.

Bravo !

Or rather you don't want to tell such inconvenient things, but the push to perpetuate the myth is so strong that some absurd things still slip through. We are discussing the integration. One of your substantiation of the alleged Polish anti-semitism was "Jewish language schools being shut down".
So, if the damn Poles want to integrate the Jews and close down government-funded schools teaching in Yiddish, they are anti-semites. If they don't want to integrate the Jews and keep funding these schools, they are anti-semites too. Come on, this just boils down to "Poles are anti-semites regardless of the circumstances".

Yawn. Gruffi, if Poles took no part in the holocaust, why is it that the only man to be convicted by a British court of taking part in the holocaust was a Pole?

I'm looking forward to your utterly predictable reply. Do remember what his mother was and what he self-identified as both before and after the war.

BTW: love the way your ignore Davies' scientific flaws and call me a Jew into the bargain.

This precisely illustrates my point. You find one (or a few) people who can be more or less associated with Poland, and use this as a foundation for fabricating the thesis about the complicity of POLAND (based on the purposefully imprecise usage of the word "Poles") in the Holocaust. Out of context, out of proportion, seemingly justified, some fuzzy semantics, one step at a time, and one day we wake up and discover that Poland is expected to apologize for the Holocaust.

Poland can equally well be expected to apologize for the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Actually, the foundation in this case would be much sounder, because the link exists on the state, not individual, level (Tobago).

This is becoming off-topic, but I assure you that U.S. affirmative action has already taken a big step beyond the simplistic notion of "protecting minorities".
One minority (Asians) didn't want to underperform, so the social engineers used their creativity to develop the concept of "underrepresented groups". Now the Asian minority is discriminated against, in favor of those "underrepresented".

" I never claimed there were no Polish collaborators but such a tiny shameful minority of Poles does not make Poland as a whole in anyway responsible for the Holocaust, as Gruffi Gummi states so well in post #20"
Could you please link to where I said Poland was responsible. The point is that it is not a myth to say some Poles took part in the holocaust. No matter how much some 'Poles' claim it is.

Thank you Dessie. Now would you care to either argue with the historical facts of what led to what there or, better yet, quote where I said that Poland was responsible for the holocaust.

I understand that I may well be waiting for some time here.

The quote from you that I provided claims that a Polish government comittee's investigation into the Madagascar Plan inspired the Final Solution.

The wait is over. Is it is now time for you to become hysterical?

To end (for now) my participation in this thread, I want to recommend some reading:

"Polish Complicity In The Shoah Is A Myth"
http://www.totallyjewish.com/news/special_reports/?content_id=5962

The topic of this conversation is "How far can Jews go to promote their ethnocentric myths?"

I don't see even one reply on the subject, but rather "Poles are ani-semites" cries. This reminds me about
Polish communist era propaganda about the US, any argument about US was met with response "but they beat
blacks there, don't they?"

So to move the conversation back to topic, I think that they will stop at nothing. They will not talk about Zegota,
or about death penalty for helping Jews during WWII (that applied to entire family, little kids included!!!! and often neighbors),
so they will not talk about Polish children killed with their families for helping Jews, they will not talk about mass desertion from Anders
army just before going into battle, about cooperation with Stalin in 1939 and 1944 and after war.
And really should we expect them to talk about this? I don't think so.

One more example of these ethnocentric myths: When Spielberg was asked by then President Walesa why he only showed
'bad' Polish people in 'Schindler List', the response was that this was not a historic movie but an 'artist vision'. Of course
immediately after returning to the US the movie was presented as a historic account, and high schools kids were forced to
watch it until some SF kids laughed during this 'documentary'. And also the advice was given to make your own movies.
Fair enough.

The Jews are not alone in policy of spreading lies about 'Polish anti-semitism', it had been used extensively by Russia (both before and
after revolution and war) and Germany to cover up their dirty actions on Polish soil which they consider their own. The West on the
other hand considers Poland a nuisance. During the war nobody would believe that Salin and Hitler were murdering Polish inteligentsia or Germans
were killing Jews in mass. The powerful nations couldn't be 'bad', so it had to be Poland that was responsible if anything was taking place.
Where is the apology from US and GB to Poles for 45 years of communism? I don't think it is coming. Poland is a convenient scape goat for
the world powers. I am afraid for the future of Poland.

" I don't see even one reply on the subject, but rather "Poles are ani-semites" cries. This reminds me about Polish communist era propaganda about the US, any argument about US was met with response "but they beat blacks there, don't they?" "
Yawn again. Some Poles are anti-semites, most aren't but some are. Just as some Americans beat blacks but most do not. And just as some Jews are racist idiots. Perpetuating the myth that all Poles took part in the holocaust is as wrong as perpetuating the myth that none did. People who do not learn from the mistakes of history will repeat those, which is an especially worrying thought in a country that was recentlay found to house extra-judicial 'dentetion centre'.

As for the rest of your post, try www.stormfront.org, it might suit you better.

oh really, and brits are impartial?? haha



Yes, the brits like it when every country is inferior to them.

Do I now. We've moved on a tad since the Empire days you know.

" BBman: Yes, the brits like it when every country is inferior to them.

Do I now. We've moved on a tad since the Empire days you know."
Isn't it interesting that we've moved from anti-Polish myths, which are most likely to be repeated by Americans with a Jewish grandfather, to anti-Jewish myths, as put forward by Americans who love Busia Sofia's pierogies, and now we're on anti-British myths, as also put forward by Americans. Perhaps the source of all these ethnocentric myths might be the same?

It can be said about many countries and many nationalities there is one qualifier for people in general - there are good and bad people.
Hence I fail to understand that obsessive persistence with which you and the other fellow in here peruse any sign of Polish pride or patriotism.
I find it particularly detestable when such a diatribe comes from foreigners living in Poland. Its not their place to define what is and what isn't desirable in the Polish history, traditions or culture.

^ Not 'many': 'every'.

As for the things in Polish history which aren't pleasant, it's the duty of all people who work for Poland to make sure those mistakes are not repeated. Do let us know if you'd like to work for Poland.