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If France And England werent so timid, wimpy and scared of hitler...


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jasinskiThreads: 15
Posts: 94
Joined: Nov 19, 09 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 06:58    #1
could WWII of been averted by more capable leaders?
plk123Threads: 30
Posts: 6,412
Joined: Aug 29, 07  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 08:31    #2
no.. maybe pilsudski should have attacked germany.. what do you think?
wildroverThreads: 180
Posts: 8,188
Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 10:48    #3
Yes , probably..if we had marched in there and given him a slap as soon as they began to break the rules imposed on them after the defeat in the first war...

But when you lose millions of lives in a war with Germany , you are not too keen to rush in there and do it all again..By the time it was realised he had to be stopped Germany was too strong to attack....

I guess everyone was hoping Hitler would keep his word and not attack the rest of Europe...

Even after Poland was attacked Britain did not want to get involved in a European war , but we had an agreement to help , we had no choice , we certainly were not in a position to go to war with Germany at that time...
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 11:22    #4
They wanted to avert a war but war was imminent on they heels
for once four horse riders, so long in their pay were looking for a little side job
well, maybe not so little after all....
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Aug 21, 10, 11:41    #5
jasinski:
could WWII of been averted by more capable leaders?

In that Germany could have been defeated before the conflict could escalate? Yes.

Germans wanted war, the official version was that Versailles was unfair, the reality was that an average German was fed prussian bullsh*t about how awesome, superior and undefeatable his nation is, when they lost WW1 they just could not live with themselves without another war, diplomacy was not the way to go with Germany.

IF France and England started preparing for war at the same time as Germany (1935) and if France invaded within 2 weeks of Polands invasion in 1939 the war would end in several weeks, the Soviets might have not attack and without Hitler Germany wouldnt be able to pull it off later.
BabinichThreads: 1
Posts: 1,054
Joined: May 26, 08  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		Edited by: Babinich  Aug 21, 10, 12:11    #6
If France And England werent so timid, wimpy and scared of hitler...

http://www.pbs.org/greatwar/resources/casdeath_pop.html

Look at the casualties the British and French suffered. You can see that an entire generation was decimated. The loss of wealth, property and lives led to to a complete aversion to war and led to the most respectable avenue from it: diplomacy.


Sokrates:
Germans wanted war


All Germans? No, they did not.

Sokrates:
the official version was that Versailles was unfair


Versailles was botched badly. Many in the general population felt that Germany had been “stabbed in the back” by the “November criminals”.

The most humiliating portion of the Versailles for Germany was Article 231, or known by it's better name the "War Guilt Clause," forced the German nation to accept complete responsibility for initiating World War I.

Therefore, Germany was liable for all damages. Georges Clemenceau, France's premier, was at the forefront of the group who insisted on imposing an unrealistic level reparation payments.

Aware that Germany would probably not be able to pay such a enormous debt, Clemenceau and the French feared German revenge. So, the French sought in Versailles to limit Germany's potential to regain its economic and military superiority.

Sokrates:
superior and undefeatable his nation is, when they lost WW1


You mean like not being defeated on the battlefield? You mean marching back home arms in hand?
wildroverThreads: 180
Posts: 8,188
Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 12:22    #7
Babinich:
The most humiliating portion of the Versailles for Germany was Article 231, or known by it's better name the "War Guilt Clause," forced the German nation to accept complete responsibility for initiating World War I.


World war two was largely caused by the resentment Germans felt after the humiliation that was imposed on them.... If you do this sort of thing to any country , you are bound to have it come back and bite you in the ass at some point...

The Allies were carefull not to make this mistake again , and after the end of the second war did all they could to help rebuild Germany..
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Aug 21, 10, 12:42    #8
Sokrates:
the official version was that Versailles was unfair,


Nope Sok, there wasn't an "official version".
Hitler was a child of Versailles, he decided to fight against the injustice that this treaty was the moment he heard about it...he rose to power on the widespread grievances about Versailles...the Weimar Republic to weak and not helped by the victors to strenghten it's position. (Quite the contrary...especially France not slackening in their demands hence making the democratic government unbearable to many Germans)
Easy prey for determined "revengist".

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWversailles.htm

Richard Tawney, speech at a Union of Democratic Control (11th November, 1920)

For every man who a year ago knew and said that the Peace Treaty was immoral in conception and would be disastrous, there are thousands who say it now. Though there seems little to be said about the Treaties which has not been said already, it is nevertheless of immense importance to let public opinion abroad realise that the heartless and cynical politicians who negotiated them do not represent the real temper of Great Britain.

Captain E. N. Bennett, speech at a Union of Democratic Control (11th November, 1920)

The fundamental falsehood on which the Versailles Treaty is built is the theory that Germany was solely and entirely responsible for the war. No fair-minded student of the war and its causes can accept this contention; but the propaganda story of Germany's sole guilt has been preached so persistently from pulpit, Press and Parliament that the bulk of our people have come to regard it as an axiomatic truth which justifies the provisions of the most brutal and unjust Treaty in the world's history.

General Hubert Gough, speech at a Union of Democratic Control (11th November, 1920)

It seems to me that the Peace Treaty can be viewed from two points of view, the moral and the purely utilitarian. From either it appears thoroughly bad, and it has failed and must continue to fail to reach any good result, such as all who fought in the war supposed we were to gain. We hoped to establish justice, fair-dealing between nations, and the honest keeping of promises; we thought to establish a good and lasting peace which would, of necessity, have been established on good will. The Peace Treaty has done nothing of the kind.
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Aug 21, 10, 12:47    #9
The guy who posted it is a troll so i'm not going to take you up on that here BB, just noticed his other thread.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 12:49    #10
Sokrates:
The guy who posted it is a troll so i'm not going to take you up on that here BB, just noticed his other thread.


*goes for lunch*
wildroverThreads: 180
Posts: 8,188
Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 12:50    #11
Sokrates:
The guy who posted it is a troll


possibly so...but we can have an interesting discussion on the subject...even if it was started by an idiot...
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 13:00    #12
Jasinski, you clearly know nothing of macro trends in the world. Do you really think WWII happened by chance after the Wall Street Crash? Do you understand ANYTHING about how wars come about and for what reasons?

Remind me, troll, when did the war start and when did the British RAF attack the German navy? 3 days difference springs to mind. We declared war, together with the French, 2 days after the Germans invaded Poland.
szkotja2007Threads: 38
Posts: 2,544
Joined: Dec 29, 06 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 13:06    #13
Hitler got away with murder in the Spanish Civil War.
If he was stopped then WW2 would not have happened.
ArchyskiThreads: -
Posts: 24
Joined: Aug 12, 10 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 13:07    #14
What ever he's a troll or not, the question is not stupid.

If you look deeply into the Versailles, I think that you can see how the english and french took every penny from the germans as a "claim for the WW1" (even though it was Austria who started that war, Germany didn't wanted to go, but it had to, kind a like England and Poland in the beginning of WW2)

And well, the german economy had a collaps in the great depression, and as a result of people losing everything and feeling it was the politicians who fail'd them, they went to the political outer wing, Hitler or the communists where Hitler could regain after his first try.

So the way that I see it, you can blaim the Versailles a lot.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Aug 21, 10, 13:07    #15
szkotja2007:
If he was stopped then WW2 would not have happened.


Okay... when and where...oh and how?

Sometimes it's really enough to chip away the head of the snake. But if this snake is a symptom and nourished from still unresolved tensions and problems then the next head is just waiting to grow back into place I fear...

*munches*
szkotja2007Threads: 38
Posts: 2,544
Joined: Dec 29, 06 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 13:10    #16
Bratwurst Boy:
when

1937
Bratwurst Boy:
where

Spain
Bratwurst Boy:
how

International Alliance with Spanish Republic
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 13:11    #17
Yeah...that might help to solve the spanish problem for the communists but what about WWII?
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 13:16    #18
Szkotja, we all know that alliances meant jack in the 1930's, right? How many do you know that were well and truly honoured? Hitler was hellbent on carrying out the Final Solution and political maneuvering was essential in that process.
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Aug 21, 10, 13:23    #19
Bratwurst Boy:
Sometimes it's really enough to chip away the head of the snake. But if this snake is a symptom and nourished from still unresolved tensions and problems then the next head is just waiting to grow back into place I fear...

The point is Hitler rallied together all the geniuses, he had a gift to recognize valuable people and elevating them, thats what made Germany strong.

To give you an example.

No Hitler => no blitz tactics => war in Poland lasting at least four months => France invading and overruning Germany in a week.

There's a lot of other things and people that Hitler nudged in the right direction, without him Germany would fall on its face somewhere on the road to get vengence much ealier.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 13:26    #20
Sokrates:
There's a lot of other things and people that Hitler nudged in the right direction, without him Germany would fall on its face somewhere on the road to get vengence much ealier.


That would be a probability too...

After all smaller countries had to live with injustice too and could do nothing about it.
And seeing now with hindsight the big picture the whole revenge thingy had cost us more then before.
But people couldn't know that back then...
szkotja2007Threads: 38
Posts: 2,544
Joined: Dec 29, 06 ♂ 		Edited by: szkotja2007  Aug 21, 10, 13:28    #21
Bratwurst Boy:
communists

Most people in the Republic weren't commies - in fact the commies made an arse of it.

Seanus:
alliances meant jack in the 1930

Austria and Germany seemed to get along.

Sokrates:
No Hitler => no blitz tactics =>

No condor legion in Spain - no blitz tactics - no lebensraum
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Aug 21, 10, 13:30    #22
szkotja2007:
Most people in the Republic weren'y commies - in fact the commies made an arse of it.


Well...in my commie school the spanish civil war was a big thing...the international red brigades build up in all over the world and paid for by Stalin's Moscow to fight for them was especially glorified.

Spain was the first big proxy war between the conservatives and the communists...The commies lost.

szkotja2007:
Most people in the Republic weren't commies


Exactly!
They had no interest in becoming a puppet of Moscow either...

szkotja2007:
No condor legion in Spain - no blitz tactics - no lebensraum


Huh?

The legion condor was Luftwaffe...this chain of events is really farfetched! ;)
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Aug 21, 10, 13:32    #23
szkotja2007:
No condor legion in Spain - no blitz tactics

What did the Condors have to do with Guderian?
szkotja2007Threads: 38
Posts: 2,544
Joined: Dec 29, 06 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 17:43    #24
Bratwurst Boy:
The legion condor was Luftwaffe...this chain of events is really farfetched! ;

The Luftwaffe contingent of the Condor Legion developed bombing skills, flight formations etc in the skies of Spain.
There was a ground contingent of the Condor Legion too.

Sokrates:
What did the Condors have to do with Guderian?

More von Thoma than Guderain.
Three Panzer companies were provided to fascist Franco.
Guderian assessed their effectiveness and later von Thoma developed techniques used in the invasion of Poland.

The Blitzkreig was pioneered in Spain.
AmathystThreads: 30
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Joined: Nov 10, 06  Pictures: 2 ♀ 		Edited by: Amathyst  Aug 21, 10, 18:03    #25
Sokrates:
IF France and England started preparing for war at the same time as Germany (1935) and if France invaded within 2 weeks of Polands invasion in 1939 the war would end in several weeks,


Here's a really crazy thought, you're going to have to work with me with this one..But why weren't Poland preparing themselves? They had an agressive neighbour, but did very little to protect themselves, why blame Britain for your countries failures. I suppose its easier to blame someone else.
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Aug 21, 10, 18:12    #26
Amathyst:
But why were'nt Poland preparing themselves?

Poland was building its industry from scratch, it wouldnt be on par with Germany even given another 5 years, France on the other side could actually outproduce and outnumber Germany quite seriously.

Amathyst:
They had an agressive neighbour, but did very little to protect themselves

Shelley Poland spent 35%-40% of its pathetic GDP on arms, it did a LOT to protect itself its just that within available resources its would never be enough.

Amathyst:
I suppose its easier to blame someone else.

The only way UK could have helped was by a serious military loan no later then in 1937, even polish politicians were fully aware that while France could help UKs help was just ink and intentions, another matter is that UK did not prepare as part of its appeasement policies.

Polish historiography has more to do with how Poland was shafted afterwards.

As for the countrys failure? Poland offered a challenge and a chance that franco-british forces did not exploit, Germany could have been easily defeated or at least brought to a table that'd end Hitlers regime, the fact is that outside of Poland no one realised or cared about how balls out dangerous Hitler was.
NathanThreads: 33
Posts: 1,846
Joined: Feb 13, 09 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 18:23    #27
If France And England werent so timid, wimpy and scared of hitler...

It is not about wimpiness or fear, it is about multiple countries in Europe at that time who were anxious to suck in the neighboring territories on grounds of pointing to some period in history and saying "it was ours then and then, so it belongs to us" or "we will die unless we will have that piece of land; survival of the fittest". Italy grabbed Somali and Albania, Germany took Austria and whatever went after, Poland grabbed a chunk of Czechoslovakia and invaded Lithuania, Hungary grabbed Slovakia and Carpathian Ukraine, Soviet Union attacked Finland,...All this occurred within 2-3 years! It was obvious that sooner or later there will be no more to grab and your new borders will be common to your former ally. Since politics usually attracts psychos, WWll was inevitable, and WWl haven't taken enough lifes for Euro-Amero-Asian monsters to be satisfied. Look at the Cold war after - these retards were ready to drop more atomic bombs where a few years earlier 70 million people perished in war, Cuban Crisis, Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan,... - it will go on ...
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Aug 21, 10, 19:20    #28
szkotja2007:
The Blitzkreig was pioneered in Spain.


Well...all have slept then and not seen what happened! ;)
It's quite hard to develop and implement the Blitzkrieg with such a quite tiny unit (100 aircraft, about 5000 men)
The Italians for example had many more stuff there...

Hitler and others supported one fraction of the spanish civil war the left, communist and Stalin the other...it was a proxy war. That's about it...

Who knows...a less agressive Hitler might have had some more proxy wars across Europe with Stalin if he hadn't decided to take it directly to Moscow in 1941.
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Sokrates  Aug 21, 10, 19:59    #29
szkotja2007:
derian assessed their effectiveness and later von Thoma developed techniques used in the invasion of Poland.

The Blitzkreig was pioneered in Spain.

First of all Blitzkrieg was developed by Brits, second you're postulating that Germans built a strategic and tactical concept on the data input provided by less than 40 tanks?

Blitzkrieg was never used or pioneered or even assesed in Spain, Germans took a british invention and made it better, they trained in Russia and in Germany and thats where the principles were fleshed out.
Bratwurst Boy:
Who knows...a less agressive Hitler might have had some more proxy wars across Europe with Stalin if he hadn't decided to take it directly to Moscow in 1941.

Not a chance, Stalin was a coward in that for example its arguable whether he would attack Poland without german invasion but he would always attack Germany, he was so terrified of it he just had to go to war.

Now Germany without Hitler and without invasion of Poland is more plausible, the moment Germany started sharing a border with Russia war was certain.
vicshereThreads: -
Posts: 1
Joined: Aug 21, 10 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 21:06    #30
I'm British. I've just watched a documentary on WWII. I think Britain treated Poland shamefully, and we should apologise.

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