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German Revanchism, Incl. Myth of 2 Million German Expellee Dead


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Marek11111Threads: 49
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Joined: Aug 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Apr 9, 10, 00:04    #1
The list author says: "Revisionism: A form of Holocaust denial is the invention of a nonexistent '2 million expellee (Vertriebene) genocide' to confuse the German-made one. In recent years, there has been an increasing tendency for Germans to rewrite history as victims instead of perpetrators of Nazism, to relativize German and non-German conduct during the Holocaust (as in a notorious DER SPIEGEL article), and for certain Germans to find the audacity to demand 'reparations' payments from Poland.

All this time, it is forgotten that the expulsions of eastern Germans and (especially forgotten) the simultaneous expulsions of Poles from prewar eastern Poland, were the products of Churchill-Roosevelt-Stalin secret agreements. Not only Germans, but also Poles, were never consulted--only unilaterally deprived of their centuries-old domiciles. Poland suffered a net loss of territory. If the Germans were expelled as collective punishment for Nazism, or for being on the losing side of the war, then what was Poland, and the Polish expellees, being punished for?

A gift to Poland? Hardly. The Soviets wanted Germany relocated as far west as possible for strategic reasons, and to create a frontier settlement so odious to Germany that Poles would "forever" be dependent on the Soviet Union to defend it.

The German civilians who died as the result of mostly-Soviet revenge atrocities should not be confused with the many more who died earlier—during the German-ordered westward evacuation of eastern German civilians (notably women, children, and elderly), in the brutal winter of 1944/1945, ahead of the Red Army.

According to German historian Rudiger Overmans, only about 100,000 German civilians perished during the subsequent Soviet-Puppet-Polish-Communist-Government-directed expulsions themselves. Let's put the latter figure in perspective. The Germans easily matched this total of just Polish civilians killed during just the first few weeks of WWII
convexThreads: 46
Posts: 7,185
Joined: Nov 25, 09  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Apr 9, 10, 00:10    #2
Marek11111:
create a frontier settlement so odious to Germany that Poles would "forever" be dependent on the Soviet Union to defend it.


they kind of failed there.

Marek11111:
According to German historian Rudiger Overmans, only about 100,000 German civilians perished during the subsequent Soviet-Puppet-Polish-Communist-Government-directed expulsions themselves. Let's put the latter figure in perspective. The Germans easily matched this total of just Polish civilians killed during just the first few weeks of WWII


Is that counting the number of people that died fleeing the red army?
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Apr 9, 10, 00:31    #3
These 2 Million dead isn't only about Poland, Marek. The whole number of German expellees and refugees after the war is numbered around 14 Million, the biggest ethnic cleansing in Europe ever!
Of those all the number of the people dying throughout is counted as 2 Million civilians....but I doubt that the true numbers will be ever known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#C asualties
convexThreads: 46
Posts: 7,185
Joined: Nov 25, 09  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Apr 9, 10, 00:45    #4
Bratwurst Boy:
These 2 Million dead isn't only about Poland, Marek. The whole number of German expellees and refugees after the war is numbered around 14 Million, the biggest ethnic cleansing in Europe ever!


All the Germans that were in Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia... And of course the Volga Germans (you can still find quite a few around Barnaul).
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Apr 9, 10, 00:48    #5
convex:
All the Germans that were in Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia... And of course the Volga Germans (you can still find quite a few around Barnaul).


Yeah...over the millennia Germans settled in whole Europe...mostly farmers but also often the merchants and craftsmen.

I used to think that there now is nothing left anymore but somehow I got now the feeling many stayed behind and just went into deep hiding....only slowly rediscovering their roots, thanks to the much changed political environment. :)
convexThreads: 46
Posts: 7,185
Joined: Nov 25, 09  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Apr 9, 10, 00:58    #6
Bratwurst Boy:
I got now the feeling many stayed behind and just went into deep hiding


I don't think so, at least not in Central Europe. The mother of a friend of mine lived in what's now Slovakia for a couple of generations before they got kicked out. Neither she or her father had been to Germany. Anyway, apparently when the expulsions were going on, the stories sounded familiar to those you hear about the Jews. Neighbors would call ethnic Germans out for personal gain. It's really amazing how many older people that you come across in the strangest of places who speak German because they went to a German school when they were kids. I came across that quite a bit in Bosnia. I remember getting lost looking for a place to stay and we came across a fish farm, the guy didn't speak any English or German, but his mother, an ancient Muslim lady, spoke perfect German. Come to find out, the school in her town was German language, so she grew up with only German in school.

There are also many German communities in northern Kazakhstan.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Apr 9, 10, 01:05    #7
convex:
I don't think so, at least not in Central Europe.


I thought so too....but when you think about the many Poles who based on their german heritage immigrated into Germany during the 80s and 90s (they shouldn't had been there) or that even here on PF astounding many poster admit german ties (I can think of 3 or 4 right now)...

The current nobel prize winner for literature Herta Müller for example is a Banate German who had most of her books written during the Ceauscecu regime, and she wasn't the only German still living in Romania...I came to the belief that there are much more of them out there than we previously thought! ;)

convex:
There are also many German communities in northern Kazakhstan.


Alot of them are now back in the Fatherland (so called Russlanddeutsche)....they used the offer from the german government to get citizenship based on their heritage quite freely! :)
Marek11111Threads: 49
Posts: 1,954
Joined: Aug 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Apr 9, 10, 01:35    #8
BB:
These 2 Million dead isn't only about Poland, Marek.

look man who fault is it that as you saying 14 million Germans perish
is it German fault? Russian Fault? U.S. fault? England fault? Polish fault?
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 9, 10, 01:37    #9
Marek11111:
who fault is it that as you saying 14 million Germans perish

Marek: please learn how to read.
convexThreads: 46
Posts: 7,185
Joined: Nov 25, 09  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		Edited by: convex  Apr 9, 10, 01:37    #10
Marek11111:
look man who fault is it that as you saying 14 million Germans perish
is it German fault? Russian Fault? U.S. fault? England fault? Polish fault?


It's the fault of all those that turned to war and retribution as answers to problems that didn't actually exist. That's 14 million people affected, the majority of which were just going about their lives.
TheOtherThreads: 5
Posts: 1,584
Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: TheOther  Apr 9, 10, 02:38    #11
Marek11111:
the simultaneous expulsions of Poles from prewar eastern Poland

Just curious: has this ever been discussed publicly in Poland after 1989? And also, how was this handled during communist times? Any explanations at all by your government why the USSR annexed Polish territory?
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂ 		 Apr 9, 10, 09:33    #12
TheOther:
Any explanations at all by your government why the USSR annexed Polish territory?


You want the Polish government to explain to us why USSR invaded Poland? lol


OP wrote:
and for certain Germans to find the audacity to demand 'reparations' payments from Poland.

I don't know of any cases like that. Do you?
convexThreads: 46
Posts: 7,185
Joined: Nov 25, 09  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Apr 9, 10, 11:26    #13
1jola:
You want the Polish government to explain to us why USSR invaded Poland? lol


Yea, interesting for the foreigners here. Was it mentioned at all? Was there any reason given for the borders changing in the East?
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: 1jola  Apr 9, 10, 11:45    #14
Yes, they said that Great Britain, the USA, and the USSR thought it best for Poland. I think it was only Turkey that didn't accept the new borders and the new Soviet dictated communist Poland government.

It's more interesting how your governments sold this injustice to you people.

Germany lost the war. How much land did she lose? Poland, the fourth largest allied army was on the winning side. How much land did she lose?
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 9, 10, 11:59    #15
1jola:
Poland, the fourth largest allied army was on the winning side.
There are 5.6 million Chinese who have a few things to say about Poland being the fourth largest army on the allied side.
convexThreads: 46
Posts: 7,185
Joined: Nov 25, 09  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Apr 9, 10, 12:09    #16
1jola:
It's more interesting how your governments sold this injustice to you people.


Didn't much care. Like the comment about the Chinese above, they ended up trading a huge country for an island.

How was the shift of borders explained in school?
GregrogThreads: 3
Posts: 114
Joined: Feb 2, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: Gregrog  Apr 9, 10, 13:23    #17
I have never heard of such explanation. In present history books for schools there isn't anything about the reason. Only fact that borders were moved on Curzon Line(except Lwów).

In fact, I don't remember anything like that(I'm quite interested in WW2 and I have to say, that in Polish school level of knowledge about this time is ridiculously low)
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Sokrates  Apr 9, 10, 14:21    #18
Bratwurst Boy:
the biggest ethnic cleansing in Europe ever!

And the only one fully deserved, ever. Sorry BB i know its a sensitive topic for you but i just can't feel for those people.
convexThreads: 46
Posts: 7,185
Joined: Nov 25, 09  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Apr 9, 10, 14:23    #19
Sokrates:
i just can't feel for those people.


Really? Not even the people that had nothing to do with what was going on in Germany?
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		 Apr 9, 10, 14:25    #20
Sokrates:
And the only one fully deserved, ever. Sorry BB i know its a sensitive topic for you but i just can't feel for those people.


I didn't expect anything different from you....
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 9, 10, 14:28    #21
Bratwurst Boy:
I didn't expect anything different from you....

Seeing as you guys used german populations in surrounding countries as an excuse and these populations were all for it can you really be suprised that your neigbours didnt want german minorities?

See Czechoslovakia.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Apr 9, 10, 14:35    #22
Sokrates:
Seeing as you guys used german populations in surrounding countries as an excuse and these populations were all for it can you really be suprised that your neigbours didnt want german minorities?

See Czechoslovakia.


These german minorities weren't often minorities till the relatively new development of nation states and especially the careless new border drawings of the Treaties after WWI.
They had lived in the same places for centuries...

When you believe that an ethnic group deserved ethnic cleansing you also support Hitlers arguments about the Jews and all what happened to Poles before just because they were Poles...how ironic!
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂ 		 Apr 9, 10, 14:44    #23
convex:
How was the shift of borders explained in school?


I didn't go to school in the late forties, but you seem to imagine history lessons in communist times through today's standards of free inquiery. History, you learned at home. Any topic dealing with independent Poland, Soviet crimes, AK, was taboo. Listening to Radio Free Europe in your home was illegal in the 80s.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Harry  Apr 9, 10, 14:45    #24
1jola:
Listening to Radio Free Europe in your home was illegal in the 80s.
No it wasn't. Not in yours and mine anyway. Although it was a crime against good taste.
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 9, 10, 14:48    #25
Bratwurst Boy:
These german minorities weren't often minorities till the relatively new development of nation states and especially the careless new border drawings of the Treaties after WWI.

Yeah except sometimes, as in the case of Poland you invaded a country and colonised it at the expense of local population, neither was the case of Sudets Germans.
Bratwurst Boy:
They had lived in the same places for centuries...

Yes and in 1936-9 period they suddenly woke up and started backing Hitler, german insurgency in Czechoslovakia or Gdańsk hassle.

Bratwurst Boy:

When you believe that an ethnic group deserved ethnic cleansing you also support Hitlers arguments about the Jews

The difference between Jews and WW2 Germans is that Jews were a bunch of slightly racist pricks who kept to themselves, Germans were a bunch of extremely racist pricks who wanted to kill hundreds of milions and were well on their way.

I agree that there's people who deserve being exiled or limited, Jews did not (even though i'm happy they're no longer a significant minority in Poland) Germans did for what they have done and what they actively supported.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Apr 9, 10, 14:49    #26
1jola:
Listening to Radio Free Europe in your home was illegal in the 80s.


We in Berlin had RIAS....it was forbidden too but everybody did it nonetheless! ;)

Sokrates:
neither was the case of Sudets Germans


And you as a Pole has especially nerves to criticize the Sudeten Germans...remember the whining about the partitions and the annexations into Prussia and how proud you still are about the resistance, the uprisings, the fight to keep your polishness and the dream of an independent country?

WHAT THE HECK DO YOU BELIEVE THE GERMANS FIGHTED FOR AS THEY WERE PLACED INTO A FOREIGN COUNTRY BY A FOREIGN TREATY????

Do you have any idea how the Czechs acted against the german minority? Wanted to forcefully to assimilate them...SOUNDS FAMILIAR????

Sokrates:
Yes and in 1936-9 period they suddenly woke up and started backing Hitler, german insurgency in Czechoslovakia or Gdańsk hassle.


The same with Danzig, a town full of German suddenly placed out of the Fatherland because of a Treaty made by foreign diplomats. They wanted back of course...how horrible of them!!!

Self determination for everybody but the Germans, huh? Poles deserve to decide how and where they want to live but not Germans, ja?


No Sok, as long as you have your blinkers on so firmly it's useless to discuss these things with you..
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂ 		 Apr 9, 10, 14:55    #27
Bratwurst Boy:
When you believe that an ethnic group deserved ethnic cleansing you also support Hitlers arguments about the Jews


You are comparing deported Germans to murdered Jews and call it all ethnic cleansing? I noticed the same comparison made by Ukrainian nationalists. They call deportations of Ukranians in 1946 ethnic cleansing, and the mass-murder of Poles in Volhynia in 1943 also ethnic cleansing. So, we all just cleansed each other?
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 9, 10, 14:58    #28
1jola:
So, we all just cleansed each other?

And German genocide was an european project really, einsatzgruppen were misunderstood and 5 milion Poles didnt get murdered they simply went to work in the UK.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Apr 9, 10, 15:02    #29
It's really useless to discuss the ethnic cleansing with Poles...the only thing you excell in are pointing the finger to others...as you Poles only shi't only gold and could do no wrong..."heroic knights in shining, spotless white armor" that you always were of course and how you so love to see yourself!

You demand apologies from everybody and their grandmom and are not even able to face your own wrongdoings! Weaklings!
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 9, 10, 15:12    #30
Bratwurst Boy:
It's really useless to discuss the ethnic cleansing with Poles...

True, having most of our larger cities moonscaped and 5 milion people killed because german pride demanded it affects your judgement a bit.
Bratwurst Boy:
You demand apologies from everybody and their grandmom and are not even able to face your own wrongdoings! Weaklings!

Interesting, when did any Pole on these forums demanded or hinted that he wanted an apology from Germany? Whats done is done, we're simply opposed to revisionism.

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