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German Revanchism, Incl. Myth of 2 Million German Expellee Dead


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Edited by: TheOther  Apr 9, 10, 22:08    #61
Sokrates:
Versailles was signed by France and England while Germany targetted Slavs and Jews first and foremost, there's no logic behind it.

What do you mean? Versailles was signed by Britain, France, the USA, Italy and Germany. The conditions for the German Empire were - mostly due to French pressure - simply a recipe for desaster. You can't deny that.

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 Apr 9, 10, 23:08    #62
learn to read Stu
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 Apr 10, 10, 00:45    #63
TheOther:
You can't deny that.

I can since this so called disaster was targetted primarily by people who if anything have been long term victims of Germans rather then culprits (speaking about Poles and Slavs in general here).

German war was targetted in the direction completely unrelated with Versailles so your point is completely moot.
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 Apr 10, 10, 01:09    #64
Sokrates:
German war was targetted in the direction completely unrelated with Versailles so your point is completely moot.


Hitler planned on attacking the Czech Republic, Poland, and other French allies and dragging France into war.
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 Apr 10, 10, 02:53    #65
Sokrates:
this so called disaster was targetted primarily by people who if anything have been long term victims of Germans rather then culprits

No Treaty of Versailles, no Hitler.
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 Apr 10, 10, 06:17    #66
TheOther
No Treaty of Versailles, no Hitler.

you are wrong there still be Hitler
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 Apr 10, 10, 12:05    #67
Yes, he would have been born and lived, but would be just a painter. :-)
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 Apr 10, 10, 12:07    #68
TheOther:
No Treaty of Versailles, no Hitler.

Rubbish, Germany was unable to cope with a lost war (it started) Versailles was just the symbol of the defeat nothing more.
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 Apr 10, 10, 18:15    #69
Sokrates:
Germany was unable to cope with a lost war (it started) Versailles was just the symbol of the defeat nothing more.

Rubbish... ;)

The conditions of the Treaty of Versailles were so harsh that they ruined the German Empire financially. Together with hyper-inflation and the world economic crisis the treaty prepared the field for the Nazis and Hitler.
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Edited by: MareGaea  Apr 10, 10, 18:27    #70
Sokrates:
Germany was unable to cope with a lost war (it started)


WW1 wasn't started by one country. It was the conglomerate of treaties, militairy build-up and 19th century policies within a modern 20th century context that started WW1.

The Allies did not go into the peace talks initially to blame Germany for the war, it was only after they realised how much everything had cost (France was virtually bancrupt, Britain had huge debts with the US and the US wanted their money back, no matter what) that they needed a guilty country in order to retrieve financial compensation. In other words, they could not get away with claiming gazillions without putting the blame on somebody.

If there are countries directly to blame for escalations that led to WW1, it would be Austria-Hungary and Serbia.

>^..^<

M-G (Hew Strachan)
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 Apr 10, 10, 19:32    #71
MareGaea:
WW1 wasn't started by one country. It was the conglomerate of treaties, militairy build-up and 19th century policies within a modern 20th century context that started WW1.

Actually yes it was, it was started by Germany who was the focal point and th reason for all the policies and treaties.
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Edited by: MareGaea  Apr 10, 10, 21:27    #72
Sokrates:
it was started by Germany who was the focal point and th reason for all the policies and treaties.


Tensions were already lessening when 1914 came round and the cordon sanitaire wasn't a joined venture: Britain, for examply, was not even part of it as it originally was aimed at France. There is actually no clear reason as to why Russia left the triple entente around 1900, but France, in her isolation grabbed the opportunity to join bonds with her as it was seeking revenge against Germany for the lost war of 1870. I don't think Russia was intending to form a bond against Germany, but more against Austria, with an eye on Slav interests in the Balkans, a much more dangerous country than Germany was to Russia. Of course the seizing of Bosnia-Herzegowina in 1878 helped the Russians with their decision. But although aimed at Austria, it was perceived in Germany as a move against herself.

Britain was only interested in the naval side of things and was afraid that the German fleet would bypass hers. Also there were some colonial issues, but these were inferior compared to the threat under which the British Seapower was. Furthermore, she didn't feel to exactly bond with Russia, in her eyes a retarded state, somewhere far away with an autocratic system of power. Britain could have made it perfectly clear what her reaction would be in case Germany would invade a neutral country. But it didn't, also because aforementioned tensions were easing up come 1914. Also, there was this "Germanic" thing - the British and Germans are both a Germanic ppl and Britain did not feel very compelled to protect a Slavic ppl in the first place. And the Americans weren't at all so sure that they would support the British as the biggest group in the US were of German descent. But the US stayed clear of the boiling situation in Europe.

Boiled down to the essence it comes down to this: Germany made a mistake to unconditionally support Austria (as per that moment, the localized conflict began to turn into a much bigger war); France was stirring up trouble in her quest to seek revenge for the Franco-Prussian war and would leave no opportunity alone to regain some of her prestige; Russia made a mistake by leaving the triple entente as it more suited her needs, having an autocratic system of power and should've not interfered in the Austrian-Serb conflict as even within Russian ranks there was a lot of dissent against helping a, what they called "retarded rowdy ppl from a rogue state which has no purpose for Russia at all"; Britain should have made it clear what her reaction would be, should neutral countries be invaded in the cause of the upcoming conflict; Austria should've been happy with the Serbian response to her ultimatum and Serbia was stirring up trouble for the past decades anyway and should've fired Dimitrievic from the Black Hand.

Where it went horribly wrong was the Austrian thought that they could have a short and decisive war against Serbia to punish her for the murder of Franz Ferdinand. At the moment Russia started mobilizing it was too late. Had all the politicians did there utmost best to prevent conflict during the July-crisis, there would not have been a war. Yet, all politicians went on holidays. And when they realised what was going down, they could not stop it anymore as it was in the hands of the militairy and the war machineries were too heavy to stop, even if the militairy wanted them to stop.

If you want to blame Germany for anything, the the only thing you can blame her of in the weeks preceding the war, was that it gave boldly it's support to Austria-Hungary on July 6th 1914, without overseeing the consequences. Which in fact was a 19th century policy: war wasn't so much declared as to actually start a war, but more of a means of pressure to obtain your goals. Once she realised what the consequences would be and that Austria meant serious business, Germany in fact did most of all the later belligerent countries to try and prevent a war. There was intense communication between Berlin, St Petersburg and London all to prevent war and keep the conflict localized. And when the Austrian ultimatum came on 23rd of July, the Kaiser declared after reading the Serbian answer that there was no reason for war at all anymore.

Germany is not the only responsible for WW1. She was guilty of clumsy politics and wrong decisions at the wrong time, but she did her utmost to prevent it, to no avail. No other participant has actively as much tried to prevent the war than Germany has done.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
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 Apr 11, 10, 03:14    #73
Make that utter bullcrap into 3 paragraphs then i'll bother to read it fully.
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 Apr 11, 10, 21:51    #74
Sokrates:
Make that utter bullcrap into 3 paragraphs then i'll bother to read it fully.


Just because you don't have a clue about the history of WW1, doesn't mean that others are writing bullcrap. And you made it pretty obvious that you don't have a clue of WW1's history. That is no shame, learn to live with it.

>^..^<

M-G (and besides, you're lazy as well, I see)
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 Apr 12, 10, 08:15    #75
I think the WW1 about economy it was about colonies who will dominate the world.
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 Apr 12, 10, 13:18    #76
Marek11111:
I think the WW1 about economy it was about colonies who will dominate the world.


It was the first time indeed that whole economies were dedicated to destroying other economies, yes. The colonies were less important, although Britain sought to protect them foremost. Most wars in history are about World domination. Be it your local world, or indeed the global world.

I've mentioned the causes of WW1 some posts ago, maybe you'd care to read back on them?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)


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