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Have Poles blood on their hands? :)


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BzibziohThreads: 6
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 Jan 13, 10, 16:35    #451
1jola:
The thing is that no one prevents us from doing what Jews do - meaning to push our causes. They do and we don't.

But when we - occasionally - do, we are whining and told to get over it.


Easy_TerranThreads: 4
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 Jan 13, 10, 16:39    #452
1jola:
The thing is that no one prevents us from doing what Jews do - meaning to push our causes. They do and we don't. It is similar to American blacks complaining that Korean immigrants own all the stores in black neighborhoods. I say to them: open your own.

Few tried.
Ended up in the jail.

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 Jan 13, 10, 17:30    #453
I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. My point is - how many people have even heard of Kolyma. We know of Auschwitz, but Kolyma? Jews make sure everyone in the world knows of the Holocaust, and people should. I don't agree with the uncomparable, without presendent view of the uniqueness of the Holocaust, but if I were Jewish, I might. I would certainly have a lot of support from fellow Jews. I once read something from a Polish prisoner of Kolyma that stuck in my head and here it is:

At the time I did not know about Auschwitz and the smoke above Birkenau, but if I had known and somebody asked me I would have answered without hesitation - Kolyma. In exchange of view we would have asked one another:

What could be worse than death in crowded gas chambers and the dehumanizing disposal of bodies in fiery crematorium?

What could be worse than prolonged suffering from cold, hunger and disease before the body gives in to the white icy crematorium?

http://www.gulag.hu/white_auschwitz.htm

It's not the point that Jews play up their suffering, but that we fail to do the same.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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 Jan 13, 10, 17:50    #454
1jola:
It's not the point that Jews play up their suffering, but that we fail to do the same

The world can only bear ONE "the worst suffering victims of all time"...(you will have to make it out between you)!

1jolaThreads: 33
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 Jan 13, 10, 18:28    #455
I would settle for basic awareness of the crime that communism was. Schools do not do a good job of that.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 13, 10, 18:49    #456
1jola:
I would settle for basic awareness of the crime that communism was. Schools do not do a good job of that.

In the context of WWII there will always be a problem.
Communists were the enemies of the Nazis, the allies of the victors...Stalin the chum of Roosevelt and Churchill.

I would be glad actually if historians could agree at last that there is no one-history-to-fit-all, that for some Stalinism was worse than Nazism and that for some Nazism was the worst of all.

It's still a long way to go...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/08/holocaust-baltic-l ithuania-latvia

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 Jan 13, 10, 19:54    #457
Read it and all the comments.

You just had to upset me in the evening, didn't you. Kaminski an ultranationalist? What a joke.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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 Jan 13, 10, 20:24    #458
.....must have been this "baltic virus"....

kithThreads: 2
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Edited by: kith  Jan 14, 10, 15:58    #459
1jola:
Easy_Terran:
Rest of the dumb, goy sh!ts who were murdered in waaaay greater number than the Jews - feck it, collateral damage.
Right?
The thing is that no one prevents us from doing what Jews do - meaning to push our causes. They do and we don't. It is similar to American blacks complaining that Korean immigrants own all the stores in black neighborhoods. I say to them: open your own.

Oh, bravo!!!! SOMEONE gets what I'm saying! I don't know why the Poles, Gypsies and all don't raise the money and make monuments, museums, etc. There's a lovely museum in Philadelphia. I urge all of you to go. But, sorry, it doesn't hold a candle to the Jewish museums and monuments. How many non-Poles go to that museum? Huge numbers of non-Jews go to the Jewish Museums. I went to both when I was in Philidelphia (about 10 years ago). The Jewish one was more impressive. There's a beautiful Holocaust monument in Boston. I'll post a pic. It's stunning. It is made up of 6 tall towers made of glass. On each tower (etched in the glass) are the 6 million numbers (a million numbers on each tower). These are the numbers that were tatooed on the victims of the Holocaust.

I had a friend whose Polish Catholic father had one of those tattoos. Why don't the Catholics make a similar monument with the tattoo numbers of the Catholics that were killed? If the Jews are capable of making such an impressive, beautiful monument, why are the Catholics not able to do the same? What's wrong with the Catholics? Sorry to be judgmental, but I just don't see the same effort from the Catholics that I see from the Jews.

Bratwurst Boy, I have to keep running off because I have children and a house to take care of. They're in school now, so I have the next 5 hours to be online. Can't be online again until tomorrow at the same time.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 14, 10, 16:07    #460
kith:
but I just don't see the same effort from the Catholics that I see from the Jews.

Catholics or Poles or everybody else non-Jew just isn't in the same still threatened position as Israel...they say...so rising and keeping up the awareness about the jewish holocaust is a means to secure the future of the jewish homeland.
No Pole nor other victim of WWII shares the same position...some say..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/jan/14/dissenting- new-antisemism-film

....
He spends most of his time either observing and talking with Abe Foxman, veteran head of the US Anti-Defamation League (ADL), the largest Jewish organisation combating antisemitism worldwide, or accompanying a group of Israeli senior high school students who go on the March of the Living, a trip to the death camps in Poland made each year by 30,000 youngsters.

The ADL sees antisemitism rising everywhere. From Foxman, Shamir learns that the only answer is to stamp on it hard by playing on feelings of guilt about the Holocaust. Heavy-handed and exaggerated? Privately, even some senior ADL lay supporters think so. And when Shamir tries to explore what the rise in antisemitism consists of, he finds it rather elusive. Foxman and ADL officials tell him there's been a spike in US antisemitic incidents, which are now running at 1,500 a year, but when he asks them to identify a recent local one, where the physical evidence could be filmed, most appear to be very minor.

He also learns that the Israeli students are indoctrinated with an exaggerated sense of the danger of antisemitism in Poland. "We're raised to know that people hate us," says one. Another wants to absorb the mantra he hears from his parents: "Never forgive, never forget." Before they leave for Poland they are briefed: "You will not have contact with the local people," it's too dangerous.

Shamir shows us that the threat of another Holocaust looms large both for the wealthy, elderly ADL supporters who go on international missions with Foxman and for the Israeli high school students. The former stand at Babi Yar in Kiev, where tens of thousands of Jews were massacred in 1941, and one woman says: "The worst thing standing here is that it could happen again today." The students go to Auschwitz and believe the Israeli secret serviceman who tells them they're in "hostile country" and can't go out from their hotel in the evening because neo-Nazis will attack them.

The ADL works very closely with the Israeli government in spreading the notion that the "new antisemitism" – extreme and unfair hostility to Israel – is the principal danger today.
....



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 Jan 14, 10, 16:26    #461
1jola:
My point is - how many people have even heard of Kolyma

Every Russian knows. We've got even a verb made up: "kolimit" - it's like to "drudge", "toil and moil". One of those places that are notorious for that how many Russian intelligentsia were exterminated there.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 14, 10, 16:34    #462
kith:
Bratwurst Boy, I have to keep running off because I have children

What's more important....a good talk on PF or children???? Honestly! ;)

kithThreads: 2
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Edited by: kith  Jan 14, 10, 16:34    #463
Bratwurst Boy:
Catholics or Poles or everybody else non-Jew just isn't in the same still threatened position as Israel...they say...so rising and keeping up the awareness about the jewish holocaust is a means to secure the future of the jewish homeland.
No Pole nor other victim of WWII shares the same position...some say..


I agree about keeping up awareness, but why don't the Catholics do the same so that the world knows about this and it's never done again?

Abe Foxman might be a racist. He was on the news here in Boston:

Criticism of Mel Gibson
Abe Foxman has received criticism from Jewish and non-Jewish quarters for his antagonist approach to the 2004 film The Passion of the Christ and its director Mel Gibson.[12] In September 2003, during the pre-release controversy, Foxman called Gibson "the portrait of an anti-Semite."[13] The next day he said, "I'm not ready to say he's an anti-Semite," but that Gibson "entertains views that can only be described as anti-Semitic."[14].


[edit] Armenian Genocide
In July 2007, Foxman's opposition to a congressional resolution recognizing the Armenian Genocide drew much criticism. “I don't think congressional action will help reconcile the issue. The resolution takes a position; it comes to a judgment,” said Foxman in a statement issued to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency.


Is anti-semitism on the rise? I thougt it was on the decline BECAUSE of all the awareness. There will alway be some ********, but that's life. I think there are fewer ignoramouses. Anyway, why don't the Catholics do the same? Why are there still so many 'stupid Polack' jokes? Bring about more awareness and stop this anti-Polanism.

I think that these anti-Poland slurs by Foxman and his followers are racist. I think Poland should do something about it.

lesserThreads: 7
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Edited by: lesser  Jan 15, 10, 19:19    #464
Catholics should finally acknowledge that without independent education system (including at home) their values and views wont preserve. Also general level of teaching is always better, this is well known fact. We should not be in relation of dependency from our toxic national states. European political establishment managed nearly to destroy (or make dependent) Catholic schools all over Europe. If this trend wont be stopped, we will struggle with our children until they will become adult "nobodies". Let be honest with ourselves, today master degree means very little. The state destroyed traditional and effective standards because their goal is to produce (on a mass scale) fools who would likely support PO, PIS, SLD, PSL and other useless political parties.

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 Jan 15, 10, 20:19    #465
the name of the thread is very aggressive
moderators can we change it for :
have poles ketchup on their hands? :)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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 Jan 15, 10, 20:33    #466
lesser:
Catholics should finally acknowledge that without independent education system (including at home) their values and views wont preserve.

Even then...one day they WILL leave home and that special schools and have to face reality! ;)

lesserThreads: 7
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Edited by: lesser  Jan 15, 10, 20:39    #467
Bratwurst Boy:
Even then...one day they WILL leave home and that special schools and have to face reality! ;)

They would be properly prepared to face reality unlike others. Even my dog don't deserve to be send to public school. :)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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 Jan 15, 10, 20:40    #468
lesser:
Even my dog don't deserve to be send to public school. :)

Agree...some of them just stink! :(

BrutalButcherThreads: 1
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 Jan 15, 10, 21:42    #469
Bratwurst Boy:
.some of them just stink! :(

Dogs or schools?

yehudiThreads: 1
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 Jan 17, 10, 10:23    #470
kith:
think that these anti-Poland slurs by Foxman

He slurred Mel Gibson. Is he Polish?
1jola:
I would settle for basic awareness of the crime that communism was. Schools do not do a good job of that.

As a foreigner I'm just guessing, but could that be because there were many Poles in the Polish communist party and they still have influence on how history is taught? Won't a public airing of that period make a lot of people in Poland uncomfortable?

IronsideThreads: 56
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 Jan 17, 10, 12:24    #471
yehudi:
Won't a public airing of that period make a lot of people in Poland uncomfortable?

yeah

1jolaThreads: 33
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Edited by: 1jola  Jan 17, 10, 12:25    #472
yehudi:
but could that be because there were many Poles in the Polish communist party and they still have influence on how history is taught?

Oh yes, there are whole red dynasties doing extremely well and the key resorts are dominated by those who would be "uncomfortable" to show the past as it really was. The common misconception is the communists went away, and let's put a thick line under that period, so any talk about it is just a witch hunt. It is all interesting and I can give my take on it but I was not only talking about Poland. The subject of education, and in this case murder of huge proportions, is not treated in a balanced way anywhere. Holocaust education is taught in schools in Europe, North America, and certainly in Israel. I understand the focus on this particular genocide, but why exclude the much larger genocide that communists, and in particular Stalinists, unleashed in just as recent times. This knowledge is essential for understanding the nature of hatred, prejudice, and tolerance, which is what I presume holocaust education aimes to achieve. While in Europe and Israel the Holocaust is a grim reminder of what had happened, in US, where many descendants of negro slaves live, some education as part of a curiculum of genocide studies could focus on the Belgian Congo, and the 10 million victims of King Leopold II's genocidal policies. You don't have to be a psychologist to question the usefulness of Holocaust curriculum for Kindergarden age kids in the US either.

yehudi:
Won't a public airing of that period make a lot of people in Poland uncomfortable?

Just to return to this. People calling for full disclosure of the communist period are called witch hunters, ultranationalists, fascists, etc. Full disclosure would also follow the trail of money and who ended up with the nation's wealth. The Left is very much against all this, but we understand this. It is a constant battle which, I'm affraid is being lost in the Left dominated Europe and Poland in this case. Holocaust education helps us understand that the return to anything called the Right would be the return to...Nazism, and we know how that ended.(sarcasm).

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 Jan 17, 10, 12:48    #473
1jola:
Holocaust education helps us understand that the return to anything called the Right would be the return to...Nazism, and we know how that ended.(sarcasm).

Sounds familiar. In Israel, the leftist parties tend to demonize the right wing parties, like Likud, by hinting that they are fascist... and we all know how that ended. What nonsense! There's no reason why a party can't be nationalist without being xenophobic and fascist, just like there can be a leftist party that's not stalinist. In the US, the republicans are saying that Obama is a socialist because he nationalized the failing banks and he wants to setup national healthcare. All these accusations, left and right, are simplistic and typical of demagogues.

About educating on the crimes of Communism. You say that
1jola:
This knowledge is essential for understanding the nature of hatred, prejudice, and tolerance,

But I think that approach is inaccurate. That's what Nazism was about, but Communism was an evil of its own nature and it should be recognized for what it really was – a utopian scheme gone mad, because it was hijacked by vicious, power-hungry people and blood-thirsty tyrants. People should be educated to be very careful of movements that claim to want to liberate the common man, because they can end up enslaving the common man. Communists enslaved their own people just as much as other nations, so it's not about prejudice and tolerance. Communism and Nazism were two different diseases and it's important to diagnose each one accurately. A wrong diagnosis can fail to prevent an outbreak.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 17, 10, 13:41    #474
yehudi:
That's what Nazism was about, but Communism was an evil of its own nature and it should be recognized for what it really was – a utopian scheme gone mad, because it was hijacked by vicious, power-hungry people and blood-thirsty tyrants. People should be educated to be very careful of movements that claim to want to liberate the common man, because they can end up enslaving the common man. Communists enslaved their own people just as much as other nations, so it's not about prejudice and tolerance. Communism and Nazism were two different diseases and it's important to diagnose each one accurately. A wrong diagnosis can fail to prevent an outbreak.

Honestly Yehudi, that's exactly the reasoning I as a German have problems with:

Communism - a good idea gone bad hence not so bad
Nazism - bad! bad! bad from the onset"

Fact is that most Germans saw the Nazi state as a good thing mainly (till the chicken came home to roost that is).
The majority of the Germans lived well under the Nazis, not feeling opressed at all.
Nazi-Germany managed till to the dying days to be one of the most developed countries on Earth.

Do you see it honestly as a redeeming feature of Communism that it was equally murderous to everybody?

The opressing, and subsequent murdering of the Jews wasn't sold only as "they have to be killed because they are Jews" either.
They were presented to the Germans as deadly enemies, as a group of world wide conspirationalists who suck the life blood out of the german people, and who did this since ages, not at least as being guilty of fabricating the first world war and guilty of the hated Treaty of Versailles, to opress and humiliate Germany.
Germany MUST get rid of them to be able to breath freely again...
Comparable to the "bad bourgeoisie" who had to be murdered before the paradise of the workers and peasants could be build!

I don't see there any difference only that Communism killed more people at home than Nazism who was more murderous against non-Germans.

Maybe that is the reason why Nazism is seen as more dangerous, more hateful, the holocaust worse than everything else...the shown capability of maintaining a highly civilisational, highly developed society and still be extremely murderous against perceived enemies.

Whereas communist Russia was not much more than a backward, third world slaughterhouse eating it's own - not so dangerous?

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 Jan 17, 10, 13:53    #475
Bratwurst Boy:
Maybe that is the reason why Nazism is seen as more dangerous, more hateful, the holocaust worse than everything else

Thatīs why Nazism is generally seem as something worse than communism. Even though many more people have been victims of communism, the racist side of Nazism is what vilifies it.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 17, 10, 14:00    #476
BrutalButcher:
Thatīs why Nazism is generally seem as something worse than communism. Even though many more people have been victims of communism, the racist side of Nazism is what vilifies it.

Well...at that time racism was well entrenched in the people and even the governments of the world.
It wasn't something the Nazis invented...race segregation and Euthanasia for example was common in the US...anti-semitism also.
Seeing how Churchill justified the british murder of kurds or the belgian genocide in the Congo speaks a different language.

Your reasoning is an easy way out but doubtful!

BrutalButcherThreads: 1
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 Jan 17, 10, 14:17    #477
Bratwurst Boy:
Well...at that time racism was well entrenched in the people and even the governments of the world.
It wasn't something the Nazis invented...race segregation and Euthanasia for example was common in the US...anti-semitism also.
Seeing how Churchill justified the british murder of kurds or the belgian genocide in the Congo speaks a different language.

Your reasoning is an easy way out but doubtful!

The difference is that Churchill isnīt hailed as a Racist leader...well, by some, yes. But not by most of the people. Anti-semitism has been a common thing in most countries of the worlds and at some point of their history, it was also part of their goverments and political thinking, BUT ,Germany is the only country to carry that endless torch. Why? I think Germans themselves decided to take the blame for anti-semitism until ...G-d knows when.

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 Jan 17, 10, 14:18    #478
Have Poles blood on their hands?

not enough

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 17, 10, 14:23    #479
BrutalButcher:
The difference is that Churchill isnīt hailed as a Racist leader...well, by some, yes.

Because he belonged to the victors of WWII!
Ask the Kurds what they think of him, ask the congolese survivors of belgian cruelty...but who cares for them since poor, "plucky" Belgium got "raped" by big bad Germany itself, hence becoming a freedom loving goody-two-shoes in european historian narrative.

The history outside of Europe and the WWII prism is often seen surprisingly different. Did you know that the Chinese hail the Nazi John Rabe in Nanking as their hero?

Why do you think Obama send the Churchill bust back to London the moment he took office in Washington? Might have had something to do with his family fate under the hands of the Brits in Togo...

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 Jan 17, 10, 14:23    #480
Bratwurst Boy:
that's exactly the reasoning I as a German have problems with:

Communism - a good idea gone bad hence not so bad
Nazism - bad! bad! bad from the onset"

But that's not what I said. I wasn't comparing who was more evil. I was pointing out that each of the two were evil in a different way and that the difference should be recognized in order to educate against them effectively.

If you use the terminology of anti-Nazism (intolerance, prejudice, racism etc) against Communism you end up with a weak argument, because Communism was about enslaving the population (and murdering) regardless of race, color or creed.

Similarly, if you use the terminology of anti-communism (totalitarianism, lack of freedoms etc) against Nazism you end up with a weak argument, because, as you said, the Germans didn't suffer under Nazism. Nazism was about hatred of the enemy, especially Jews, brought to such a pitch that it justified the most horrible crimes.

Therefore a museum about the holocaust is no place to talk about the crimes of the Communists, and a museum about Communist crimes (when someone decides to build one) is no place to talk about prejudice and intolerance.


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