Have Poles blood on their hands? :)

♂

Edited by: Ironside Dec 29, 09, 14:48 #91

Well, If that question is exclusively connected to WWII and Jews or is that more general and philosophical question?
If this about WWII and Jews that of course it is nonsensical rubbish.

I think that many if heard about Poland they heard about Catholicism and most likely myths about ardently/fanatically religious Poles.
That seems to be politically motivated as there is general trend to view Catholics as going against progress and liberty and being antisemitic anti- whatever ******** is trendy, now.
So there is also revisionism of history and thats why there such absurd and off mark views as Polish CK and such. Seems that west is no better then Russians and Soviets rewriting history anew to suits political agendas.

And Jedwabne is another myth.

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09 ♀	Dec 29, 09, 18:43 #92
Ironside: And Jedwabne is another myth. I certainly hope you meant something else by this.

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Edited by: Ironside Dec 29, 09, 18:57 #93
vetala: I certainly hope you meant something else by this. I mean exactly that its a myth to illustrate alleged Polish guilt, anti-antisemitism and alleged participation in killing Jews. There wasn't even proper investigation. Other myth is Kielce and alleged pogrom. Why is so hard to understand that not everyone is interested in facts but have an agenda.

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09 ♀	Dec 29, 09, 21:00 #94
Sigh. No, I don't want to get into THIS kind of argument again so I will just say that I'm absolutely certain that Jedwabne and Kielce did happen and nothing you say can convince me otherwise.

♂

Dec 29, 09, 21:13 #95

yehudi:

But to suggest, based on a situation in pre-WW1 Prussia, that Jews in central and eastern poland really didn't lose legitimate property in the holocaust is a ridiculous argument. I wouldn't have expected a comment like that from you.

Fascinating. How did they lose legitimate property "in the holocaust" ?

yehudi:

But after reading what he wrote, what's the most horrible thing is not that people moved into his house (let's assume they thought the owners were dead), but that jews returning to their town were murdered by their former neighbors. And it's known that this happened in quite a few places.

Oy ! Not only damn bastards were robbing poor, innocent and always victimized Jews, damn nazis were also killing them ! Obviously add to that "many", "often" etc. Holocaust industry at its finest.

Barney:

this is what human beings are capable of when they find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It would also have helped a bit If the chosen hadn't massively collaborated with NKVD. And maybe If they have trained some matrial arts... so maybe 1600 ugly antisemites wouldn't have been able to murder 1600 always innocent chosens without any loses on the ugly antisemtic side. Oy !

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Dec 29, 09, 21:14 #96

vetala:

Sigh. No, I don't want to get into THIS kind of argument

What kind of argument is "this"?

vetala:

I'm absolutely certain that Jedwabne and Kielce did happen

If by above you mean that in those places some number of people were killed, murdered and most of them were of Jewish origin -

vetala:

nothing you say can convince me otherwise.

-I have no intension to convince you otherwise.

But if you mean something else than I would call it prejudice or foolhardy prejudice.

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09 ♀	Dec 29, 09, 21:55 #97
What I mean is that a big number of defenceless women and children were killed by people of Polish ethnicity solely because of their nationality. We could argue about the circumstances but the fact still stands. And by THIS kind of argument I meant the kind of argument that lasts three pages with repeated use of statements which were used in other three-pages-long argument from another thread.

BarneyThreads: 14 Posts: 1,469 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Dec 29, 09, 22:14 #98
Grzegorz_: It would also have helped a bit If the chosen hadn't massively collaborated with NKVD. Its always safe to use the "what about" argument, ignoring anything you may be uncomfortable with.

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Dec 29, 09, 22:15 #99
vetala: What I mean is that a big number of defenceless women and children were killed by people of Polish ethnicity solely because of their nationality in that case I would said (if you are genuine) that you are being mislead. Anyway why do you persist in this folly is not clear to me. Prejudices or temptation of being more holy then the Pope? wrong cause then:)

♂

Dec 29, 09, 22:56 #100

vetala:

What I mean is that a big number of defenceless women and children were killed by people of Polish ethnicity solely because of their nationality. We could argue about the circumstances but the fact still stands.

Fascinating. There are basically two (If there were more, we would be reminded about them again and agian, don't worry about that) such cases: Jedwabne - the real wunderwaffe of "Poles are antisemties" crowd and Kielce - a smaller one but no less exploited. Jedwabne - there are completely no hard evidences of what happened there, I don't believe that It was completelly made up but the "official" version is so illogicial, It is offending for human intellect that It was commonly accepted to be true. Kielce - we now when and who was killed but still It is wierd, expecially that local authorities were involved and later the commie government was blaming anti-Soviet circles... The rest is just "many Poles were antisemitic", "many Poles participated in the Holocaust", "many Jews were murdered by their Polish neighours" stuff, which is as valid as "many Poles are being mudered in racially motivated attacks in the UK".

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09 ♀	Dec 29, 09, 23:25 #101
Ironside And I think you just don't understand my point. Read some of my earlier posts and you'll see that I'm always very much against applying colective guilt to my own nation. I just think that the rare, but definitely true cases of wrongdoings and shameful incidents need to be acknowledged. Grzegorz I agree completely. So what's the problem?

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Dec 29, 09, 23:36 #102

Grzegorz_:

I don't believe that It was completelly made up but the "official" version is so illogicial, It is offending for human intellect that It was commonly accepted to be true.

Grzegorz_:

Kielce - we now when and who was killed but still It is wierd, expecially that local authorities were involved and later the commie government was blaming anti-Soviet circles...

Two very bad things (at least) happened only an idiot would say that all Polish are anti-semitic jew haters.
The Nazi holocaust happened to a large extent in Poland that is not the fault of Poland and I can understand why Polish people are defensive about it.

The article I posted was trying to get away from the moronic view of Poles as Jew hating knuckle draggers.

♂

Edited by: Ironside Dec 29, 09, 23:50 #103

vetala:

I just think that the rare, but definitely true cases of wrongdoings and shameful incidents need to be acknowledged.

Indeed, but we shouldn't be coned to acknowledge incidents when Polish population were only bystanders not perpetrators as in Jedwabne's case.

vetala:

Read some of my earlier posts

I will but not today:)

Barney:

The article I posted was trying to get away from the moronic view of Poles as Jew hating knuckle draggers.

Indeed, funny that it was published in the Guardian,

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09 ♀	Dec 30, 09, 00:09 #104
In Jedwabne's case a bunch of moronic Poles were definitely perpetraitors. The rest of the town was simply too scared of the Germans' reaction to stop the slaughter. But you can't call them ALL just bystanders.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,354 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Dec 30, 09, 00:23 #105
vetala For their behavior and co-abolartion with the Germans I wouldn't call them Poles anymore, just some un-normal individual who happens to speak Polish. IF it really happened. Although most people think that a humans national feeling has to do with the language it speaks then im English! spits on all moronic creatures who are able to do something like that

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Dec 30, 09, 04:06 #106

Let's make a distinction between state actions and individual actions. How can a country be held responsible for its actions when it was occupied is beyond me. Any justice system will not hold someone responsible when a gun is held to his head. How can a country be blamed for the actions of its individuals? How can an individual be blamed for the actions of the country? There are lines of responsibility here that must be drawn.

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Dec 30, 09, 09:22 #107

I see this thing is keep coming so:
lets show some true

And while the Nazis killed millions of Jews, Poles killed thousands — most famously, as Gross related in “Neighbors” (2001), a book that caused an uproar in Poland, 1,600 of them in the town of Jebwabne in July 1941 — crimes little noted at the time nor since remembered in Polish history books.

'Post World War II Poland and Antisemitism' ByDavid Margolick
http://polandinjustice.com/
and newest version from viki

The Jedwabne pogrom (pronounced [jɛdˈvabnɛ]) was a massacre of at least 300 Polish Jews in German occupied Poland in July 1941

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom
for poles and polish speaking before you judge plz read IPN report
http://www.ipn.gov.pl/ftp/pdf/jedwabne_postanowienie.pdf
it's only 203 pages
regards

TrevekThreads: 30 Posts: 2,088 Joined: May 21, 08 ♂	Dec 30, 09, 11:58 #108
Bratwurst Boy: Well...I'm sure some Prussians lived also in Van's (maybe not for so long though). Why build a house when you can go to germany and steal a German van ;-)

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Dec 30, 09, 12:39 #109

ender:

'Post World War II Poland and Antisemitism' ByDavid Margolick
http://polandinjustice.com/

Have you actually read this nonsense?

The guy has no idea who his daddy was, but that is not surprising.

My father in the Polish militia after the war

Another NKVD Jew working for Stalin's right-hand man in People's Poland -Jakub Berman. The murders committed by these Jews against Poles far outnumber the several hundred Jews who were killed in the after war chaos.

caprice49Threads: 4 Posts: 288 Joined: Aug 5, 09 ♀	Edited by: caprice49 Dec 30, 09, 12:54 #110
Mr Grunwald: even if Jedwabne is true I Well unfortunately it is. But it should be taken into context by remembering how some Jews behaved towards the Poles. No one is blameless, and that includes the Jews! Bierut is a prime example and for the doubters the Israeli newspapers listed the Jewish perpetrators as did Solzenicyn.

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Dec 30, 09, 12:55 #111

1jola:

Have you actually read this nonsense?

Hm, so every source that says that some Poles might be on the wrong side of the track is nonsense? And every source that says they were all on the right side of the track is a good and credible source? You're showing some true colours, there.

1jola:

The murders committed by these Jews against Poles far outnumber the several hundred Jews who were killed in the after war chaos.

So we are back to square one again? We are thinking in groups and clubs again and not in individuals? Poles kill Jews, Jews kill Poles and the Germans and Russians killed them all. Soit. It's like that. Get over it, it's past. Live today.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

♂

Dec 30, 09, 12:56 #112

joepilsudski:

According to the blog 'Poles loaded Jews onto 'gas trucks'...I thought it was 'gas ovens'...Which is it?...Maybe Poles never loaded anybody onto anything...

I've just read Laurence Rees's book on Auschwitz and the Holocaust. One of the things which keeps cropping up is how Jewish prisoners were made/expected to assist with the 'processing' of prisoners for transportation, selection and eventual murder. Some of the (Jewish) people he interviewed worked with the Sonderkommando or cut the hair of prisoners about to be gassed. They were often asked by the prisoners themselves, "How can you do this... how can you help them?" They admit that all that drove them was a desire to survive.

Likewise, ghetto police (Jewish) or such people as Rumkowski, the 'king' of the Łodż ghetto saying "Give me your children!".

Interesting how when gentiles do such things it is because they are 'anti-semitic' but when Jews do it they are trying to survive.

Another point which Rees brings up, through interviews, is the handling and 'theft' of the property of gassed prisoners, not only by the Nazis but by the camp inmates themselves (Jewish and gentile). Once more, the case is made that it was about survival. And who can blame them... but this is a matter of human nature, not a matter of whether or not someone is Jewish, gentile or whatever.

It reminds me of a scene in the film "Defiance", where a peasant (Polish, I believe) is shot because he allegedly allowed his cart to be used to transport Jews. Can you imagine the ideal scene of what he should have done...?

Nazi officer: "We need your cart to transport Jews to Sobibor to be gassed!"

Poor Polish Peasant: "nay, foul nazi, begone, I will not aid thee in thy anti-semitic ways!"

Nazi: "Oh, OK, we'll ask someone else, we respect you views..." (exit nazi).

Errrm, somehow I don't think the scene would have worked too well.

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Dec 30, 09, 13:01 #113

Grzegorz_:

How did they lose legitimate property "in the holocaust" ?

Jews were shipped out of towns to be killed and their property was taken over by Polish squatters. The few survivors who came back to claim it after the war were driven away. Which is the part you don't understand?

ob1:

How can a country be held responsible for its actions when it was occupied is beyond me.

Nobody says the government of Poland is responsible for Jedwabne. What people say is that Poles massacred Jews, because that apparently is what happened there. Whether that means Poles are anti-semites is for you Poles to discuss among yourselves. I don't care.

Grzegorz_:

Obviously add to that "many", "often" etc. Holocaust industry at its finest.

No. I use words like "often" when I don't have statistics. This isn't a court of law, so I don't don't need to bring numbers. My point is still valid, that the shocking thing is NOT the squatters in former Jewish property but the murders. I'm not talking about pogroms, which may have been isolated incidents, but murders of individual Jewish returnees. How many murders were there? Enough to be a phenomenon and not a freak incident.

♂

Edited by: ender Dec 30, 09, 13:05 #114

1jola
I did.

After the war ended, 14 Jewish surivors wandered back into the next village to try to reassemble what was left of their shattered lives. The Poles came after them in the middle of the night and murdered them all. My father, who had lived over the Holocaust sleeping in barns and running from Nazis, Poles, and wild dogs, was forced to flee - again.

My father in the Polish militia after the war

plus some other flowers

Nazis, Poles, and wild dogs
he he he
when I read such crap I become nazi and I'm dreaming about big ovens

♀

Edited by: vetala Dec 30, 09, 13:16 #115

1jola:

The murders committed by these Jews against Poles far outnumber the several hundred Jews who were killed in the after war chaos.

Ridiculous.
But the author of this blog actually BRAGGING about his communist daddy is just as riddiculous.

MareGaea:

Hm, so every source that says that some Poles might be on the wrong side of the track is nonsense? And every source that says they were all on the right side of the track is a good and credible source?

Obviously not. But have YOU actually read this nonsense? The author of that blog is a person who dedicates all of his free time to find as much sh*t on Poles as he can, no matter if it's true or not, just to show 'those nasty Poles' in a bad light. He's the exactly same kind of person as our dear forum antisemites.

Trevek:

Nazi officer: "We need your cart to transport Jews to Sobibor to be gassed!"Poor Polish Peasant: "nay, foul nazi, begone, I will not aid thee in thy anti-semitic ways!"Nazi: "Oh, OK, we'll ask someone else, we respect you views..." (exit nazi).

Dude, it's a Holywood production. There's no place for actual moral complexity there.

yehudi:

How many murders were there?

327 confirmed, 1000/2000 estimated. Out of 180,000–240,000 Jews who survived. And it was 2/3% of total victims of post-war violence. I understand that Jews felt threatened but feeling threatened is a completely different thing from actually being in a mortal danger.

yehudi:

Enough to be a phenomenon and not a freak incident.

Szmalcowniks are described as a Polish phenomenon even though Anne Frank didn't survive a war because she was betrayed by a Dutchman. Also post-war violence is called a Polish phenomenon, not a Romanian, Slovak or Ukrainian phenomenon although pogroms and killings of Jewish returnees happened plenty of times over there too. And yet, nobody cares, because Poland is treated like some sort of symbol of antisemitism.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Dec 30, 09, 13:38 #116
vetala: Ridiculous. You are most likely not familiar with 1944-1956 period of Polish history and the prominence of Jews in the state terror apparatus. You should do something about this.

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Dec 30, 09, 13:42 #117

vetala:

Szmalcowniks are described as a Polish phenomenon even though Annne frank didn't survive a war because she was betrayed by a Dutchman, etc.

It's discussed as a polish phenomenon here because this is a Polish forum. Also because everything that happened in the holocaust is magnified in Poland since that's where the most Jews lived and died. There's no question that the other nations you mentioned were notorious in betraying Jews to the Nazis and that French and Dutch participated in rounding up their Jews and that Ukrainians and Baltics took part in the slaughter. But this discussion is about Poland. If I would be on a Lithuanian forum I'd give them hell, but then what's more boring than a Lithuanian forum.

king polkakamonThreads: 1 Posts: 1,018 Joined: Dec 30, 09 ♂	Dec 30, 09, 13:42 #118
As far as I have looked I never saw a Pole with blood on his hands.

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09 ♀	Dec 30, 09, 13:55 #119
1jola They were acting with full approval of their Polish commie collegues and then they were kicked out. I hate them, but I'm far from appying collective guilt. yehudi Fair point.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Edited by: 1jola Dec 30, 09, 14:16 #120
vetala: They were acting with full approval of their Polish collegues And somehow makes it OK to murder soldiers who fought for independent Poland? vetala: and then they were kicked out How sweet. vetala: I hate them, but I'm far from appying collective guilt. And you shouldn't. Show me how my post was ridiculous. You will have to compare numbers.

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