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Have Polish Christians been making up lies about Polish Jews?


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 Dec 24, 11, 21:38    #1
Many, if not, most Poles did not consider Jews as fellow Poles.

Polish Christians however claim that this is because Jews did not consider themselves Polish. They apparently refused to assimilate. Most of them spoke Yiddish primarily and knew Polish poorly.

So...is there any truth to that? Or are Polish Christians making up yet another lie?

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Edited by: Gruffi_Gummi  Dec 24, 11, 22:17    #2
Does this present-day opinion of a U.S. rabbi regarding inter-faith marriages answer your question?

"For Jews, “marrying within the faith” isn’t a cultural preference or prejudice. Rather, it is one the commandments G-d gave us at Mount Sinai. A Jew who marries a
non-Jew transgresses a Torah prohibition. The practice of not “intermarrying” is in fact one of the oldest features of Judaism (...) We were chosen as a permanent protest group against idolatry and immorality. Intermarriage is therefore antithetical to the Jewish purpose and to the Jewish identity (...) As Jews, we have a unique identity that is connected to our purpose in the world. We are the “chosen people." http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/intermarriage-lovewithnonje w/


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 Dec 24, 11, 22:42    #3
Gruffi_Gummi:
Does this present-day opinion of a U.S. rabbi regarding inter-faith marriages answer your question?


Well, I knew about the interfaith marriage thing. However, I'm asking if it's true that most Jews didn't speak Polish too well?
legendThreads: 9
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 Dec 24, 11, 22:48    #4
EM_Wave:
Or are Polish Christians making up yet another lie?


Lets blame the:
Germans, Russians, Poles, Christians, Muslims, blah blah blah

BUT REMEMBER KIDS: IF YOU BLAME JEWS OR ZIONISTS ITS ANTI-SEMITIC
Gruffi_GummiThreads: 1
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 Dec 24, 11, 23:03    #5
EM_Wave:
I'm asking if it's true that most Jews didn't speak Polish too well?


Since 79% of Jews in Poland stated (1931 census) their first language as Yiddish and 9% as Hebrew, you can imagine.
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 Dec 24, 11, 23:42    #6
legend:
BUT REMEMBER KIDS: IF YOU BLAME JEWS OR ZIONISTS ITS ANTI-SEMITIC


do not forget " Holocaust denier "
delphiandomineThreads: 42
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 Dec 24, 11, 23:44    #7
EM_Wave:
Well, I knew about the interfaith marriage thing. However, I'm asking if it's true that most Jews didn't speak Polish too well?


Not true. It might not have been their first language, but they were in a similar situation to (mother tongue) Ukrainians - more or less bilingual.

If they weren't, how could they play a prominent role in Polish life?

legend:
BUT REMEMBER KIDS: IF YOU BLAME JEWS OR ZIONISTS ITS ANTI-SEMITIC


Remember kids : work hard in school, get work experience and get a good job, or you end up like this guy.

Gruffi_Gummi:
Since 79% of Jews in Poland stated (1931 census) their first language as Yiddish and 9% as Hebrew, you can imagine.


What the "first" language is - is really of no relevance. What's more relevant is how their Polish was - and I've never read anything to suggest that the Jewish population couldn't speak Polish.
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Dec 24, 11, 23:46    #8
Many Jews are not Zionists so we have to get that point straight. Many Israeli Jews are critical of what their Zionist govt are doing. I really don't think Polish Christians would make such a big deal of things unless provoked.
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Edited by: Gruffi_Gummi  Dec 25, 11, 01:39    #9
delphiandomine:
What the "first" language is - is really of no relevance. What's more relevant is how their Polish was - and I've never read anything to suggest that the Jewish population couldn't speak Polish.


"Polish Jews were notable for a particularly strong attachment to their people and a confident, positive self-image as Jews. They harbored their cultural identity in small towns known as shtetls (shtey-tels), encountering non-Jews only through trade and extra-marital sex. Moreover, the pluralistic social climate of late medieval and early modern Poland made possible the creation of a parallel school system, based on Talmudic educational traditions . These Talmudic schools were the pride of the Orthodox Jews, who kept them strictly isolated from gentile influences." [emphasis added by GG]

Source: Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski, Jews in Poland, Hippocrene Books, New York 1998, p. 20

This was going on for centuries. The education was conducted in Yiddish or Hebrew. As a result, in 1931 close to 90% Jews declared that they didn't speak Polish at home. No official census can test the actual command of any language by anyone, but the above-described conditions rule out any true bilingualism that would be prevalent in this society. A rudimentary command of a language (like the rudimentary English spoken by most Polish expats in Britain) does not constitute bilingualism!

Perhaps this is easier to understand by an American - U.S. has a substantial Latino population. The public schools, with compulsory attendance, actively attempt to teach them English as a second language. And yet there are places where you can't get a job if you don't speak Spanish (because you can't talk to your co-workers and customers), the government is forced to offer services in Spanish, and the prevalence of press '2' for Spanish' is the common motif for griping among the nativists. There are Mexican stores, radio stations broadcasting in Spanish, Spanish TV channels... You can function in the society without speaking English. Now, extrapolate this situation to pre-war Poland, taking into account the separate educational system, self-isolation of Jews, the support and at the same time societal pressure created by the size of this ethnic community, and you will get the picture.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Dec 25, 11, 05:27    #10
Pogonowski isn't exactly an objective source on this topic.
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 Dec 25, 11, 05:34    #11
JonnyM:
Pogonowski isn't exactly an objective source on this topic.


Then perhaps Richard Pipes, who wrote a laudatory foreword to this book, is?
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Edited by: Gruffi_Gummi  Dec 25, 11, 06:49    #12
And finally, a cymes (this is a Yiddish word that had migrated into Polish):

Isaac Singer wrote in Forverts:
Rarely did a Jew think it was necessary to learn Polish; rarely was a Jew interested in Polish
history or Polish politics. (... )

Even in the last few years it was still a rare occurrence that a Jew would speak
Polish well. Out of three million Jews living in Poland, two-and-a-half million were not able to
write a simple letter in Polish and they spoke very poorly. There are hundreds of thousands
of Jews in Poland to whom Polish was as unfamiliar as Turkish. The undersigned was connected
with Poland for generations, but his father did not know more than two words in Polish. And it
never even occurred to him that there was something amiss in that.

Ho, Ho, Ho, Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah everyone!
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 Dec 25, 11, 09:17    #13
Pipes is certainly less disreputable than Pogonowski though heavily criticized. Pogonowski its more of a tasteless amateur with links to the Rydzyk movement.

Basically more racism rearing its ugly head on PF and quite unworthy today of all days when Poland its celebrating the birth of a famous Jew.
a.k.  Dec 25, 11, 09:47    #14
EM_Wave:
Many, if not, most Poles did not consider Jews as fellow Poles.


Bullsh*t. If a person consider himself Polish he is Polish. There are many media personalities of Jewish descents and noone think they are not Polish. Why are you attacking Poles again? Why are you so hateful?
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 Dec 25, 11, 11:14    #15
Gruffi_Gummi:
As a result, in 1931 close to 90% Jews declared that they didn't speak Polish at home. No official census can test the actual command of any language by anyone, but the above-described conditions rule out any true bilingualism that would be prevalent in this society. A rudimentary command of a language (like the rudimentary English spoken by most Polish expats in Britain) does not constitute bilingualism!


I think it's safe to say that claiming that Jews only had a "rudimentary" command of Polish is clearly Rydzyk-speak.

It's actually more likely that Jews had a better command of Polish than much of the Polish peasants at the time.

JonnyM:
Pogonowski isn't exactly an objective source on this topic.


Pogonowski's work in journalism includes broadcasts for the Polish Radio Maryja[7] and columns for its sister publication, Nasz Dziennik (Our Daily).[8] He has also written columns in the Polish-American biweekly, Gwiazda Polarna.

Excuse me while I fall over in utter shock.

a.k.:
Bullsh*t. If a person consider himself Polish he is Polish. There are many media personalities of Jewish descents and noone think they are not Polish. Why are you attacking Poles again? Why are you so hateful?


Usual Polish-American bullshit really.

Worth pointing out that such bullshit is Polish-American and not Polish. No wonder stupid Jews believe that Poland hates them, if all they read is bullshit online from Polish-Americans!
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 Dec 25, 11, 15:14    #16
delphiandomine:
It's actually more likely that Jews had a better command of Polish than much of the Polish peasants at the time.

This supposition reveals a patronizing attitude towards the Polish peasantry. Usual British expatriate bullshit really.
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Edited by: delphiandomine  Dec 25, 11, 15:24    #17
Des Essientes:
This supposition reveals a patronizing attitude towards the Polish peasantry.


Who do you think would have had a better command of the national language of Poland - educated, urban types - or poor, uneducated village peasants?

Given that the same peasants brought such words as "Busia" to America - it's not hard to guess, is it?
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 Dec 25, 11, 15:38    #18
delphiandomine:
Who do you think would have had a better command of the national language of Poland - educated, urban types - or poor, uneducated village peasants?

Despite their poverty, I think it would be the Polish peasantry for whom Polish was their first language. Polish was not the first language of most of Poland's Jewry.
delphiandomine:
the same peasants brought such words as "Busia" to America

"Busia" is a term of endearment gotten from abbreviating the Polish word "babusia". Those who truly "command" a language, because it is their native tongue, are free to coin such terms.
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Edited by: JonnyM  Dec 25, 11, 16:01    #19
Des Essientes:
I think it would be the Polish peasantry for whom Polish was their first language.

Perhaps you should look into the role of dialect (and sociolect - which what we know as Polish largely was)in Europe in the days before mass travel and broadcasting. And the nature of Slavonic languages, if you fancy learning one.
Des Essientes:
Polish word "babusia"

WTF??
Des Essientes:
Those who truly "command" a language, because it is their native tongue

I didn't know it was your 'native' tongue...
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 Dec 25, 11, 16:12    #20
Some Jews had a great command of the language. Others didn't!
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 Dec 25, 11, 16:26    #21
Des Essientes:
Despite their poverty, I think it would be the Polish peasantry for whom Polish was their first language. Polish was not the first language of most of Poland's Jewry.


You think, you think. But where's the evidence?

Given that Polish was the language of the elite of Polish society, don't you think that the perhaps the Jewish population (who did constitute a rather sizeable part of the elite) would have been more than proficient in it?

Tell you what Des - why don't you examine the public schooling system of the II RP?

When you learn something about that, then you might be able to establish as to who was likely to have a greater command of the Polish language - illiterate peasants from the borderlands, or educated, urban individuals.

I know plenty of people who have a different "first language" at home. They're all fluent in English and are considered native speakers.
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 Dec 25, 11, 18:27    #22
^Yes, I think the average Jew was a lot more educated than the average Pole.

It would explain why Poland's Jewish minority has contributed more to science than the rest. Most Science Nobel Prize holders from Poland are Jewish.
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 Dec 25, 11, 18:46    #23
poles are very anti Jewish ! more then germans and russians. i am ashamed my fathers fathers line is polish slavic
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 Dec 25, 11, 18:59    #24
alxmac:
poles are very anti Jewish ! more then germans and russians. i am ashamed my fathers fathers line is polish slavic


I don't know about Russians considering they have the biggest neo-Nazi population.
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 Dec 25, 11, 19:00    #25
One more "expats'" made Polonophobic provocation involving Jews and "Polish antisemitism"... extremly pathetic and sad...
ceper  Dec 25, 11, 19:10    #26
alxmac:
i am ashamed my fathers fathers line is polish slavic

Could it be that your mothers side is blinding your perception of Poland.
I am a Jew  Dec 25, 11, 19:16    #27
ceper:
Could it be that your mothers side is blinding your perception of Poland.

Good one!I would like to ask all Poles on PF to don't respond to provocations like this one and/or don't post under registered name but only as a guest if you really have to respond.I will not post on PF under my registered account until few trolls will be banned from PF.
a.k.  Dec 25, 11, 19:33    #28
EM_Wave:
It would explain why Poland's Jewish minority has contributed more to science than the rest. Most Science Nobel Prize holders from Poland are Jewish.


Honey, those Jews who got Nobel Prize where educated in the USA not in Poland.
As for education some were educated and assimilated, some were not.

alxmac:
poles are very anti Jewish ! more then germans and russians. i am ashamed my fathers fathers line is polish slavic


How do you know that, sir? Another guy who was never in Poland?
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Edited by: Gruffi_Gummi  Dec 25, 11, 19:55    #29
delphiandomine:
It's actually more likely that Jews had a better command of Polish than much of the Polish peasants at the time.


Yeah, and Isaac Singer (quoted above) is certainly an anti-semite too. It's Christmas, so I will refrain from defining the state of your mind, using fluent, idiomatic Polish to prove my Polishness. Happy Kwanzaa!
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 Dec 25, 11, 20:08    #30
alxmac:
poles are very anti Jewish


The history between Poland and the Jewish people is complex. Before the second world war there was a huge population of Jews in Poland, probably the largest in Europe by a large amount because Poland was a tolerant society. Others can jump in and correct me, but the relationship between the Jews and Poles was poisoned by the Communist Party because there was a fairly large percentage of Jews in the Party. Non-Jewish Poles saw the Jews as the instigators and promoters of communism in Poland and never mind that the communists turned around and purged the Jewish party members. Anti-semitism? I believe Hitler and Stalin sowed those seeds.

Everyone should read Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin. What those of us in the west think we understand about WWII, before, during and after, is only a fragment of what actually occurred. The worst devastation and suffering was in eastern and central Europe: Poland, Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic states, collectively known as the Bloodlands. I caution that it's a book you have to take in small doses; the cruelty is mind-numbing.


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