Jaruzelski; no patriot, just communist scum

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Nov 28, 10, 02:05 #91
ShawnH: The Pope, Reagan, Thatcher, Gorbachev, The economy (US Vs. Eastern Bloc), the collapse of the Managed economy, etc. Kind of the perfect storm. So how was it right for Hungarians to stand up 20 years earlier, and Czechs 10 years earlier?

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Nov 28, 10, 02:17 #92

convex:

So how was it right for Hungarians

Similar opportunities arose, but were crushed by the communist regime.
Stalin had died, Austria had become "neutral" and the Poles were negotiating a little more freedom in the trade unions and political changes at home. Smells like a little freedom for everybody else, why not for the Hungarians? They went for it and it was suppressed.

Same type of deal with CR.

Difference is how it was dealt with by USSR. As time went on, it was less able (politically or financially) to do anything about popular uprisings.

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Edited by: Moderator Nov 28, 10, 06:15 #93

Torq & Harry

You claim I dnt know anything about Poland, and my views are ignorant

hmmm funny how you two are the only ones on the forum aggressively supporting Jaruzelski.
Also it seems the whole country supports my view;
the tabloid FAKT writes: It’s a disgrace! Who is that Jaruzelski – young Poles are bound to ask. A presidential minister told them: He’s an expert on Russia’s internal affairs. And what about the anti-Semitic purges in the Polish Army in the late 1960s? What about the victims of the workers’ revolt in December 1970? What about martial law? All this is not important any more – young Poles are being told, the daily FAKT writes.

Former Solidarity activist and now Civic Platform senator Jan Rulewski told the daily that a person who currently stands trial for violating the constitution in imposing martial law in December 1981 should not be invited by the state authorities in the first place. Besides, if Jaruzelski can advise on anything, it is on Polish-Soviet rather than Polish-Russian relations.
And POLSKA-THE TIMES devotes half of its frontpage space to what it describes as ‘the Jaruzelski war’. It quotes an anonymous source in the ruling party as saying that Prime Minister Tusk became furious having learnt of the president’s invitation of Jaruzelski. In an editorial, the same daily writes: ‘If the image of Mr Bronislaw Komorowski – the citizen of Poland - has suffered – it may be his private matter. But Komorowski holds the highest state office and so his gesture towards Jaruzelski is harmful to the prestige of the Polish state, POLSKA THE TIMES concludes. (add this to Radek Sikorski's view of the man, in my opening post)

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Edited by: Torq Nov 28, 10, 08:06 #94

Polonia1:

Torq & Harry

You claim I dnt know anything about Poland, and my views are ignorant

Yes - that sums it up pretty well.

Polonia1:

Also it seems the whole country supports my view;

You are wrong. The difference between you and Harry or me, is that we actually live
in Poland and we talk to people from both sides of the former barricade.
You, on the other hand, live in Australia and take your information from tabloids.

Polonia1:

the tabloid FAKT writes (...) FAKT writes

Polonia1:

Anyway gentlemen I think I won this argument

So, we have historical data about the preparations for the Soviet invasion, the opinion of
a significant percentage of Polish people, regardless of their political sympathies (and I mean
Poles who were born and raised in Poland, not some plastic wannabes) and last but not the
least, the opinion of the great Polish Pope - John Paul II, who will soon be canonized a saint,
and who considered Jaruzelski to be a genuine Pole and a patriot.

You have a couple of articles, mostly from the tabloid Fakt, and you think you won
the argument. That tells us something about the mental state you're in.

Polonia1:

Harry's jst a Polish wannabe

Well, that's something you and Harry have in common. However, Harry lives and works
in Poland, pays his taxes here and, apart from his habit of annoying the local population
on Interent fora, I'd say his presence is beneficial for our country.
Now, remind me - what do YOU do for Poland? Oh, yes... I keep forgetting - you're
a part of Polish dance ensemble.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Nov 28, 10, 14:15 #95
Seanus: As for Jaruzelski, I'd have to read more to comment with any conviction Try Być może to ostatnie słowo by Jaruzelski - a book full of insight, historical evidence and common sense.

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Nov 28, 10, 14:25 #96

Did he smile for the cameras and wear his Polish patriot t-shirt just for the photo shoot at the book's launch? ;) ;)

I should really read a little more about him and those times. I was with my mother-in-law for 4 hours yesterday and one of her hobby-horses is life under communism as opposed to today. I often find myself just listening rather than having anything meaningful to say. Picking up snippets along the road is not going to help your credibility in any way and I know that.

Thanks for the recommendation :) :) Sth different from reading James Patterson and other authors of that ilk.

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Nov 28, 10, 17:38 #97

Jaruzelski's crimes and treason are clearly evident. Just from wiki since it almost doesn't even warrant more:

By the time the war ended that year, he had gained the rank of lieutenant.[2] He "further credited himself in Soviet eyes"[1] by engaging in combat with the Polish Home Army, an anti-communist organization, from 1945 to 1947.[1]

Polish patriots did not fight AK on the Soviet orders.

He joined Poland's communist party, the Polish United Workers Party, in 1948 [4] and started to denounce people for the Soviet supervised Main Directorate of Information of the Polish Army using the cover name Wolski.[5] In the first post-war years, he was among the military fighting the Polish anti-communist guerrillas ("cursed soldiers") in the Świętokrzyskie region.

Trained by Soviet GRU, he was their agent in Poland and he shows up in Kielce region as well doing the same. He was indeed fighting for Poland - communist Poland under Stalin's rule.

No decent Pole would call him a patriot; communists, ex-communists, and today's useful idiots do. When we Poles say someone fought for Poland, it means for independant Poland, which he did not. A communist dictator and criminal a hero?! Idiots.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Nov 28, 10, 17:39 #98
Torq: You have a couple of articles, mostly from the tabloid Fakt Owned by the great Polish "Axel Springer Group", right? ....wait...what do you mean, they're not Polish-owned?

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Nov 28, 10, 17:45 #99
1jola: Polish patriots did not fight AK on the Soviet orders. Quite right: Polish patriots didn't join the Polish army, Polish patriots absolutely renounced all allegiance to Poland and signed up to murder Polish civilians. Oh, sorry, that isn't what Polish patriots do, that's what traitors do.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Nov 28, 10, 17:52 #100
1jola: A communist dictator and criminal a hero?! Idiots. So, you think heroes would have led Poland to a bloody civil war - which would have been better for Poland? Only an idiot would say that civil war in 1981/1989 would have been better than the alternative.

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Nov 29, 10, 19:45 #101

delphiandomine:

Only an idiot would say that civil war in 1981/1989 would have been better than the alternative.

Only an idiot would elevate the guy who’s responsible for declaration of war on his own people to the rank that of the hero. The motivation for his action was not the best interest of a country at hart but that of a traitor that he was who wanted to stay and keep the power at all cost. Never had any respect for the guy. Those that defend him are either naive or just secret sympathizers of the ideology he represented and I do suspect the latter to be the case, for which any excuse will do.

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Nov 30, 10, 01:53 #102

ShortHairThug:

traitor that he was who wanted to stay and keep the power at all cost

- care for any real arguments to back up this view? I am really interested and if you are capable of thi, I'd be glad. So far I have read such opinions too, and different also, but your s are not backed up by much. Please elaborate.

ShortHairThug:

Never had any respect for the guy.

- not an argument

ShortHairThug:

Those that defend him are either naive or just secret sympathizers of the ideology he represented and I do suspect the latter to be the case, for which any excuse will do.

this looks like your parents indoctrinated ypu into thiese views without deeper insight. Again, do give ANY arguments to back up your views! I want to know them to make my mind too maybe. But you are not using any now.

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Nov 30, 10, 03:41 #103

Torq:

So, we have historical data about the preparations for the Soviet invasion, the opinion of a significant percentage of Polish people, regardless of their political sympathies (and I meanPoles who were born and raised in Poland, not some plastic wannabes) and last but not the least, the opinion of the great Polish Pope - John Paul II, who will soon be canonized a saint, and who considered Jaruzelski to be a genuine Pole and a patriot.

Sometimes last year, I went to an event in Chicago about 'Children of Siberia". We even had a chance to talk to two elderly survivors. Also, a movie was shown and Jaruzelski talked about his experience there as a child. Later, he talked about his reasons for declaring the marshall law in Poland. It is exactly what you said. The Russians were standing on the border all ready to walk in. He had a choice to let them in or to impose the marshall law. I felt a lot of sympathy for him that evening but you should hear some 'plastics' screaming the word 'traitor' during the movie... In my opinion, he made the right decision. His past as a commie is a different story, but he deserves a credit for the prevention of civil war. Because of his decision neither the russkie drove his tanks over polish desparate fighters and Poles had no chance to do it to each other.

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Nov 30, 10, 20:36 #104

Olaf:

not an argument

It was never meant to be. My post is not some feudal attempt to convince you or anyone else on this forum of the historical truth nor is it my attempt of proving his guilt, it’s simply an opinion. Those who are truly interested in the subject matter have plenty of material available to them at their disposal to go through at their leisure and in plain English just in case your Polish might be rusty. Courtesy of the recently declassified CIA reports released in 08 through the freedom of information act, testimonials of the individuals who were the players at that time and other related material that speak to the contrary of the argument presented here on this traitors behalf in order to defend his action and somehow justify this heinous crime. Remember Google is your friend. In my book such opinion carries a lot more weight since it’s based on what any given individuals understanding of those events is. Being able to reach your own conclusion rather than relying on the opinion shoved up your throat by others is a lot more gratifying. Existence of this so called Holy Grail document or even its authenticity sited here as proof positive as him having no choice or as his justification for declaring war on his own people is not at question here, far from it all it means is that a contingency plan has been formulated for this scenario, that’s all. Besides I’m not too keen on the idea of indoctrinating you as you have so eloquently stated it to be my case.

Des EssientesThreads: 11 Posts: 2,318 Joined: Feb 6, 10 ♂ [Suspended]	Nov 30, 10, 20:45 #105
ShortHairThug: My post is not some feudal attempt to convince you or anyone else on this forum of the historical truth nor is it my attempt of proving his guilt, it’s simply an opinion. Your post is vassal-itating!

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Nov 30, 10, 21:20 #106

ShortHairThug:

Courtesy of the recently declassified CIA reports released in 08 through the freedom of information act, testimonials of the individuals who were the players at that time and other related material that speak to the contrary of the argument presented here on this traitors behalf in order to defend his action and somehow justify this heinous crime.

So it's a choice between believing the CIA (who had a reason to put Jaruzelski down) or the men who have no reason at all to like or help Jaruzelski and were personally involved in planning the invasion of Poland. Tough choice.

nottThreads: 6 Posts: 1,271 Joined: Jun 2, 10 ♂	Nov 30, 10, 22:43 #107
Eurola: In my opinion, he made the right decision. His past as a commie is a different story, but he deserves a credit for the prevention of civil war. Because of his decision neither the russkie drove his tanks over polish desparate fighters and Poles had no chance to do it to each other. Prevention of civil war? WTF you talking about.

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Nov 30, 10, 23:17 #108

ShortHairThug:

The motivation for his action was not the best interest of a country at hart but that of a traitor that he was who wanted to stay and keep the power at all cost.

So, what would have happened if Poland was invaded? We already know from historical evidence that many Poles considered the election of JPII as a miracle - and something that cemented the "Christ of Nations" idea in their heads. They're also far less pragmatic as a nation than others - and many within Solidarity were ready for a fight with the Soviets.

Do you really think Poles would have sat back in 1981 against a Soviet invasion?

The only reason martial law succeeded was that Poles were shocked that the Army could turn on them. There were even polls done by Solidarity which suggested that the Army was one of the most trusted institutions within the PRL.

As I understand it, all the evidence points to Jaruzelski being told to "sort things out or else" - while an invasion may not have been imminent, the failure of Jaruzelski to resolve the situation may very well have led to invasion.

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Nov 30, 10, 23:36 #109

delphiandomine:

the failure of Jaruzelski to resolve the situation may very well have led to invasion.

Hardly. They had enough time to invade with the unspeakable things happening in Poland then, for nearly a year and a half. Thing is, Jaruzelski begged them to drop in, only it wasn't convenient for them, so they left him to his own measures.

The reason that the martial law 'succeded' was that it wasn't a real martial law. Laughable thing, actually, partly due to the army being quite reluctant to do the real job.

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Dec 1, 10, 00:18 #110

nott:

They had enough time to invade with the unspeakable things happening in Poland then, for nearly a year and a half. Thing is, Jaruzelski begged them to drop in, only it wasn't convenient for them, so they left him to his own measures.

They certainly had plans to do so in late 1980, though the.....was it the Carter administration made it clear that economic sanctions would follow. Late 1981, we don't know for certain - but seeing as Jaruzelski was a trusted pair of hands, they may not have bothered to make plans for - why bother, if he could get the job done?

nott:

The reason that the martial law 'succeded' was that it wasn't a real martial law. Laughable thing, actually, partly due to the army being quite reluctant to do the real job.

Laughable? They managed to imprison most of Solidarity's leadership and more or less destroyed Solidarity to the point where in 1986, it was barely functioning. Not what I'd call "laughable".

Anyway, my own view is that Jaruzelski's greatest hour was in 1989/1990.

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Dec 1, 10, 00:57 #111

delphiandomine:

why bother, if he could get the job done?

exactly. He was a traitor.

delphiandomine:

nott: The reason that the martial law 'succeded' was that it wasn't a real martial law. Laughable thing, actually, partly due to the army being quite reluctant to do the real job.

Laughable? They managed to imprison most of Solidarity's leadership and more or less destroyed Solidarity to the point where in 1986, it was barely functioning. Not what I'd call "laughable". [/quote]

And then they gave up to the non-existent opposition. Laughable. First thing you heard on the famous Sunday was 'death sentence for everything'. Next week I travelled through three checkpoints without a pass, and the boys only got into the bus to warm themselves up, and made their best to oversee those who didn't stick the papers out. I had more samizdat during the martial law than before, etc.

The only serious clashes were in the beginning, and only ZOMO could be trusted enough to be used against the miners. The army was fed warm soups by the miners' wives.

You could get beaten up during a demo, or you could end up in jail after being caught after curfew, if you were unlucky, or drunk. Still, I happened to be checked by the plain clothes police, with a bag full of samizdat. Oh, it's books, have a good day.

Sure they got the leadership during the first night. The others were hiding successfully for years, and the small fry just laughed. There were not enough prisons to lock them all up, to be honest.

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Jan 15, 12, 20:20 #112

Yesterday, 86-year old former interior minister General Czeslaw Kiszczak was given a two-year suspended prison sentence for his part in the imposition of the crackdown against the Solidarity trade union.

Jaruzelski, now 88, was withdrawn from the case on account of his ill health after being diagnosed with cancer.

Former first secretary of the Polish communist party Stanislaw Kania, who resigned from his post before martial law was declared, was acquitted by the court. http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/82075,Jaruzelski-%E2%80%98appalled-a fter-martial-law-court-verdict

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Jan 15, 12, 21:13 #113

PennBoy:

Yesterday, 86-year old former interior minister General Czeslaw Kiszczak was given a two-year suspended prison sentence for his part in the imposition of the crackdown against the Solidarity trade union.

Absolutely the right sentence - he's no threat to society these days, and the sentence is symbolic. It's also the right decision - his actions as part of WRON were against the law of the PRL - and furthermore, Poland deserves credit for trying him (and others) under the law of the PRL rather than the III RP or otherwise. Where they made a huge mistake in East Germany was to try people under the West German law rather than the law that was in force at the time.

PennBoy:

Former first secretary of the Polish communist party Stanislaw Kania, who resigned from his post before martial law was declared, was acquitted by the court.

Kania was never guilty of this - especially as he was removed from power before.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Jan 15, 12, 22:10 #114
Also with new evidence coming to light it is clearer than ever that the Kremlin relied on the comrade general to clean up "Solidarity" for them. There was never a danger of Soviet invasion at the time.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Jan 16, 12, 22:06 #115
Sorry IS, but the Czech generals who were tasked with commanding their part of the invasion of Poland disagree with you. And they had no love for the Pole who led the most recent Polish invasion of their country. But do feel free to as usual ignore the people who were there and instead push your version of the history of Poland which never actually happened.

emhaThreads: - Posts: 180 Joined: Nov 24, 10 ♂	Jan 16, 12, 22:16 #116
[quote=Harry]And they had no love for the Pole who led the most recent Polish invasion of their country.[/quote You probably don't know, that you are talking about Jaruzelski:)

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Jan 16, 12, 22:26 #117

Harry:

Sorry IS, but the Czech generals who were tasked with commanding their part of the invasion of Poland disagree with you. And they had no love for the Pole who led the most recent Polish invasion of their country.

As far as I remember - Honecker was also quite keen on giving the Poles a bit of a hiding - GDR-PRL relations were always quite poor.

emha:

You probably don't know, that you are talking about Jaruzelski:)

Jaruzelski wasn't really a leader in 1945 - he only distinguished himself (and became Moscow's man) later on.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂	Jan 16, 12, 22:40 #118
Eurola: The Russians were standing on the border all ready to walk in. He had a choice to let them in or to impose the marshall law. The thing is, It's rather his-story, not history...

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Jan 16, 12, 22:42 #119

Grzegorz_:

The thing is, It's rather his-story, not history...

Actually - the only disputed part is what went on in 1981. No-one is arguing that in 1980, there were thoughts of invading - the Soyuz 80 moves are proof of that. But in late 1981?

Either way, the latest conviction means that Jaruzelski is morally guilty of breaking the law of the PRL - which was the legitimate Polish state at the time.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Jan 17, 12, 02:41 #120
He is just a traitor !and scum

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