Jewish collaboration with Soviets 1939-1941 and after 1944

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May 26, 11, 11:31 #1

It's something you don't hear about in schools or read in mainstream newspapers. I'm also not aware of any widely discussed book about this chapter in history. The only case that was present in the media was that of Helena Wolińska-Brus, but without any further comments about the wider context and the scale of Jewish involvement. Therefore all I know about this subject is just bits and pieces - mostly memoirs I've read on the Internet and comments on moderated international forums for historians. The picture I get is that the Jews were by far the largest group that spontaneously welcomed the Soviets during their invasion of Kresy in Septembet 1939. From one person I've heard that while the majority of Polish Jews weren't pro-Soviet, the workers' militia in the Kresy region was composed in 90% from Jews! Those pro-communist Jews actively collaborated with NKVD in preparing lists of Poles to be executed or forcibly relocated to Syberia, which ultimately resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths. As long as I remember, Jan Karski mentioned this in his raport to the Polish government in exile.
The other chapter of Jewish involvement in crimes against gentile Poles began in 1944 when Red Army entered the pre-war Polish territory. While the crimes have been researched after 1989, only on occasion can a person come across information that a very high percentage of perpetrators were Polish Jews. I've read somewhere that after the war some 40% of communist security apparatus in Poland were Jewish - I believe it was in Norman Davies "God's Playground". Also some British agent reported that 90% of the NKVD officers operating in Poland immediately after the end of the war were Jewish.
I'm not a historian and I do not gather sources - this is just some of the information about the subject that I remembered over the years. Is there a book that focuses on the problem of Jewish collaboration with "the other totalitarism"? Typically on international forums one can often read most fantastic stories about "primitive Polish antisemitism", while Polish Jews are always the innocent victims. Was this always the case?

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May 26, 11, 11:41 #2

RobertLee:

Typically on international forums one can often read most fantastic stories about "primitive Polish antisemitism", while Polish Jews are always the innocent victims. Was this always the case?

Of course not.

I note that your wonderful recounting of facts somehow leaves out the fact of Polish repression of Jews which took place in the interbellum and why people who have been repressed might welcome a change of government (and even get a few kicks in on people who've been violent towards them for as long as they can remember).

RobertLee:

I'm not a historian

Really? I'd never have guessed.

RobertLee:

Is there a book that focuses on the problem of Jewish collaboration with "the other totalitarism"?

I'm not sure, but I do know where you should be asking that question: www.stormfront.com You're sure to fit right in over there.

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May 26, 11, 11:59 #3

Harry:

I note that your wonderful recounting of facts somehow leaves out the fact of Polish repression of Jews which took place in the interbellum and why people who have been repressed might welcome a change of government (and even get a few kicks in on people who've been violent towards them for as long as they can remember).

What do you mean by the "interbellum Polish repression of Jews"? How many Jewish lives did that bloody prosecution take? I'm sure the Polish antisemites closed the border so that no Jews escape the repressions?
As I see it, when you consider living in a foreigh country you have two choices:
1. Integrate, be nice to locals, be loyal to the country that let you in.
2. Leave.
Some Jews evidently took yet other option, that is "Stay, don't integrate, betray the country, collaborate with the agressor against gentiles, pretend to be a victim" and you approve.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	May 26, 11, 12:02 #4
RobertLee: As I see it, when you consider living in a foreigh country you have two choices: 1. Integrate, be nice to locals, be loyal to the country that let you in. It wasn't a 'foreign country' and nobody 'let you in'. The state was formed in 1918 with those people in it. At home.

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May 26, 11, 12:20 #5

RobertLee:

What do you mean by the "interbellum Polish repression of Jews"?

Might I suggest that you go and buy a book written by a half-decent historian.

RobertLee:

How many Jewish lives did that bloody prosecution take?

At least hundreds, even the apologist Morgenthau report had to concede that. Most probably thousands.

RobertLee:

I'm sure the Polish antisemites closed the border so that no Jews escape the repressions?

No, the border was only closed to Jews who wanted to come into Poland: that is why Kristalnacht happened. The Polish government wanted to deport Jews to Madagascar, a plan which the Nazis also favoured.

RobertLee:

As I see it, when you consider living in a foreigh country you have two choices:

They were not in a foreign country: they were at home.

RobertLee:

you approve.

I never approve of collaborators, no matter which side they collaborate on. You, on the other hand, most certainly would, had you been alive in Poland during WWII, have signed up for work with the Germans and been trained at Trawniki.

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May 26, 11, 12:25 #6

JonnyM:

It wasn't a 'foreign country' and nobody 'let you in'. The state was formed in 1918 with those people in it. At home.

Even Gross admits that Polish Jews in larger part weren't integrated with the rest of the society and didn't consider themselves Poles. If they did then how do you explain their collaboration with the Soviets, which directly resulted in the deaths of very many Poles?
And yes, Jews were let in on Polish lands, when escaping repressions in Western Europe. Yes, they were living for centuries among Poles and other Eastern Europeans - the question begs to be asked: "Why didn't they integrate and why did they choose to stay?"

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May 26, 11, 12:38 #7

JonnyM:

It wasn't a 'foreign country' and nobody 'let you in'. The state was formed in 1918 with those people in it. At home.

Harry:

They were not in a foreign country: they were at home.

And who the f u c k are you two to say wheter Jews were at home or not?You both are not Polish and have no say who in Poland is at home and who is not.The assimilated Polish speaking Jews who considered themselves POLISH first were at home but most of them were not.They were cultural aliens who did not even bother themselves with speaking Polish and did not consider themselves Poles but Jews and the Jews place is in Israel not in Poland

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Edited by: RobertLee May 26, 11, 13:09 #8

Harry:

RobertLee:How many Jewish lives did that bloody prosecution take?

At least hundreds, even the apologist Morgenthau report had to concede that. Most probably thousands.

Do you have any source for this?
You are saying that communist Jews revenged those imagined deaths by helping send hundreds of thousands of innocent Poles to Gulags? Even if what you are saying is true, then that's one hell of a revenge, don't you think?
But more importantly: if Jews were murdered in interbellum Poland then another question needs to be asked: Why did they continue to live in that blood-thirsty country? Evidently the Jews wanted out and, according to you, Polish government also wanted them out. So why did they stay? Are you implying that Jews are morons who like to stay in places where they get murdered?! That's very nasty of you!

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	May 26, 11, 13:21 #9
Ask yourselves why Poland joined NATO and you will understand why Jews sided with the Soviets. It's all about perceived protection. Just like glory hunters side with the top teams, people also side with those they believe offer them the best deal.

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May 26, 11, 14:16 #10

RobertLee:

Do you have any source for this?

Do I have a source for the statements contained in the Morgenthau report? Er, yes: the Morgenthau report. Do I have sources showing that at least hundreds and more probably thousands of Jews were murdered by Poles in 1918 to 1921? Yes, lots. Here is one. Here is another. Here is another.

RobertLee:

You are saying that communist Jews revenged those imagined deaths by helping send hundreds of thousands of innocent Poles to Gulags?

No, you are saying that. And by the way, have you got any sources?

RobertLee:

But more importantly: if Jews were murdered in interbellum Poland then another question needs to be asked: Why did they continue to live in that blood-thirsty country?

Where were they supposed to go?

RobertLee:

Are you implying that Jews are morons who like to stay in places where they get murdered?! That's very nasty of you!

I see that you have realised that you can not hope to argue against what I do say and so have decided to instead claim I say things which I do not say. Pathetic. Are you Polish?

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May 26, 11, 14:47 #11

Ok, coming from the most interested party:

1) grubas - you are simply an anti-semite and a moron to boot. After You learned that I am indeed Jewish You called me a ( quote ) "f.u.c.k.i.n.g. Jew" in another thread. And now You're here spewing out more nonsense and gibberish.

All normal countries accept the right of people to support and express their roots and origins. Nobody in the Unites States, for example, is pissed off because Poles celebrate on Pulaski Day. It is only the minority composed of undeducated cretins like You that thinks that one has to completely cast away one's roots to become a "citizen" of a new country.

2) robert lee - stats, publications from respected peer-reviewed journals and etc. please. Discussing with "how you remember things" isn't sensible.

3) Polish - Jewish relations past 1944 -

Sure, there were some Jews in the communist/stalinist apparatus. What many forget is that communism was at its core a supposedly international movement and even in the Soviet Union the communist party accepted and encouraged involvement of people hailing from a non-dominant ethnic group ( Stalin himself was, for example, Georgian, so was Beria, Gorbachev's most vocal parliamentary opponent in the early 1990's was a Chechen I believe, and so forth ).

So sure, some Jews were in the communist party when it formed in Poland and some of them took active part in persecuting the leftovers of the pre-1939 system. Just like the tens of thousands of ethnically Polish communists, which leads one to a conclusion that the Jews took part in it because they were commies and not because they were Jews.

But everyone has the right to make up their own mind. In mine there's little doubt that if these Polish Jews are identified as having actively partaken in Stalin's operations against the Polish underground, then by all means they should be tried for it.

Still, since we are being so thorough, could anyone tell me where can I sign up for my compensation due to my family being kicked out Poland during the late 1960's? Kicked out for being Jewish "zionists" of course?

You know, I figure some interest must have accumulated during these 40 years...

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May 26, 11, 14:54 #12

JonnyM:

It wasn't a 'foreign country' and nobody 'let you in'.

Yeah ? Poland accepted 300.000 Jews from Soviet territories.

Harry:

I note that your wonderful recounting of facts somehow leaves out the fact of Polish repression of Jews which took place in the interbellum and why people who have been repressed might welcome a change of government (and even get a few kicks in on people who've been violent towards them for as long as they can remember).

Usual BS!
Not worth to discus with Harry - he is a close-fisted manic !

Midas:

could anyone tell me where can I sign up for my compensation due to my family being kicked out Poland during the late 1960's

Try Jaruzelski or Moscow or maybe Gazeta Wyborcza !

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	May 26, 11, 14:59 #13
Ironside: Poland accepted 300.000 Jews from Soviet territories. Got a source for that? Ironside: Usual BS! Could you perhaps identify the facts which you wish to claim are BS? Will make it much easier for me to prove you wrong.

MidasThreads: 2 Posts: 788 Joined: Jul 19, 10 ♂	May 26, 11, 15:07 #14
Try Jaruzelski or Moscow or maybe Gazeta Wyborcza ! Unfortunately, dear "friend", the country that decided to kick my family out was called the People's Republic of Poland, not USSR, Jaruzelski State or the Principality of Adam Michnik. So if I ( or anyone else loosely entitled ) decides to seek compensation we'll be suing Poland, not any other state.

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Edited by: Ironside May 26, 11, 15:11 #15

Harry:

Got a source for that?

Find it for yourself - do you think that after two years of knowing you I can be arsed to prove something to you?

Harry:

Could you perhaps identify the facts which you wish to claim are BS? Will make it much easier for me to prove you wrong.

Just a general gist of your posts, Poles are to blame for almost everything - you know boringtwistingshowingoffsomemoretwistingoffthefakcts - and no you did not said that, you only imply it.

Midas:

we'll be suing Poland, not any other state.

Sure why not sue the victims because they have not been kicked out, tax them even more, the guilty are in comfortable position to even being arsed by that, they have already stolen their loot !

Midas:

the country that decided to kick my family

the country that kicked your family was ruled by traitors and soviets, why don't you try to sue them eh? - I liked you but now you just pissed me off, big time !

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May 26, 11, 15:33 #16

Ironside:

Find it for yourself - do you think that after two years of knowing you I can be arsed to prove something to you?

So you haven't got a source but instead of admitting that you are talking out of your arse you instead try to attack the person who is pointing out that you are talking out of your arse.

Ironside:

Just a general gist of your posts, Poles are to blame for almost everything - you know

So you can not point to even a single statement I have made and show it to be BS. As for "Poles are to blame for almost everything", would you like to quote a post in which I say that or anything even remotely like it? Or is that just another case of you talking out of your arse?

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Edited by: isthatu2 May 26, 11, 17:00 #17

RobertLee:

Jewish collaboration with Soviets 1939-1941 and after 1944 - forgotten chapter?

yeah,completly forgotton,never heard of this before,OMG,Im shocked ,saddened and surprised in equal measure.....................

ps,as you have admitted you are not an historian Mr RobertLee, may I kindly point out that the name you have chosen ,Im guessing you forgot the "E" in the middle,that name is that of a great Southern general,who served a Southern Government that had Jewish people in high positions................................

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	May 26, 11, 17:11 #18
RobertLee: It's something you don't hear about in schools or read in mainstream newspapers. Usual line favoured by racists. For what it's worth, it's nearly impossible to hold a reasonable debate about this - the vast majority of people who are interested in the topic just so happen to be racist idiots. It's sad, but true.

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May 26, 11, 17:43 #19

I feel sorry for Robert Lee - probably a decent guy. Unfortunately, he was answered by Harry, who then set the tone for what followed.

Simple facts:
Most Jews were not Communists.
Most Communists (especially in Russia) were Jews - for the historical reason that the Jewish trade union movement (numbering 600,000) merged with the proto-Communist party (numbering 30,000). Membership/leadership self-perpetuated - as is normal in many spheres of society.
Pre-WW2 all of Europe was anti-semitic; Poland to a far lower degree than Nazi Germany (e.g. student quotas came in just before the war). An old English friend of mine (still alive) remembers the murmurs of "Well done" in Leeds when the Nuremburg Laws were brought in. Uppity Jews. So the English weren't lilly-white either. Let's add attitudes to blacks, Irish etc ...

However, no-one is allowed to mention the huge Jewish element to Communism nor its central role in informing Hitler's political ideas. Rosa Luxemburg et al. tried to launch a revolution at the time he was forming his political ideas.

Jews in Poland faced dilemmas. many "kept their head down", others left, some joined what they thought would be the winning side.

But Harry doesn't believe you have the right to talk about it. Therefore he rants. Most liberal-minded people would probably agree with him, thinking you're an anti-semite. They don't want to engage in talk about history - slogans are easier to handle.

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May 26, 11, 17:44 #20

Harry:

Polish repression of Jews which took place in the interbellum

You mean the Diaspora? Wonder why so many Jews picked Poland to live in? I highly recommend this book, "The Jews of Poland"; A Social and Economic History of the Jewish Community in Poland from 1100-1800, by Bernard D. Weinryb, published in 1972 by "The Jewish Publication Society of America" It may be difficult to obtain this book and I paid $75 for it at a book market. It's totally from a Jewish perspective but doesn't put Poland in a bad light historically.

Midas:

grubas - you are simply an anti-semite

Is he? It's so easy to call someone anti this or that or "racist". The question had to do with collaboration of Jews and Soviets which cost Polish lives. Nothing wrong with talking about that.

In another thread I pointed out that when I was a kid, I knew a Pole who witnessed Jews riding on Soviet tanks pointing out specific Poles for death, and even shooting some themselves. Just because most people are unaware of this doesn't mean that it should be left out of history.

delphiandomine:

For what it's worth, it's nearly impossible to hold a reasonable debate about this

You got that right.

isthatu2:

forgot the "E" in the middle,that name

Maybe he didn't want the 'E'?

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May 26, 11, 17:55 #21

ZIMMY:

You got that right.

I think a huge part of the problem is that only two groups are interested in this story - Jews and Poles. Jews, naturally, play down such collaboration - while Poles over emphasise it.

But both sides are also equally guilty of refusing to accept an "outside" view of it - if you point the finger at Poles, they scream blue murder about the person (see also Gross, J) - and if you point the finger at Jews, then you get a hysterical overreaction from some Jewish organisations too.

For what it's worth :

Poles were involved in genocidal acts against Jews, Ukrainians and others - fact.
Jews were involved in oppressing Poles - fact.

That's about it, really.

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Edited by: NomadatNet May 26, 11, 18:31 #22

Varsovian:

Pre-WW2 all of Europe was anti-semitic;

Answer to all questions is given in this sentence. Poland had got to be under the spotlights due to the population concentration of Jews there in Poland.

If all of Europe was anti-semitic, it can be easily imagined that there were hands of all other parties; monarchic centers, religion centers, etc in the events that happened in Poland. From this far place and far time to that past, it is not difficult to see that anti-semitism was intentionally designed by such those centers.. For what then? For nothing else than petrolium/oil which had been fought for since pre-WWI..

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	May 26, 11, 18:33 #23
Varsovian: Pre-WW2 all of Europe was anti-semitic; Poland to a far lower degree than Nazi Germany (e.g. student quotas came in just before the war). An old English friend of mine (still alive) remembers the murmurs of "Well done" in Leeds when the Nuremburg Laws were brought in. Yes, interbellum England was well known for its pogroms, just like Poland.

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May 26, 11, 18:58 #24

delphiandomine:

Poles were involved in genocidal acts against Jews...

Makes one ask the question; if so, then how was it that Poland was 10% Jewish in 1939. The word 'genocide' is frequently misused. Sometimes it is used when a town or village is wiped out as opposed to killing most of the people of an ethnic group. In that usage, Jews and Ukrainians also committed 'genocide'.

NomadatNet:

Poland had got to be under the spotlights due to the population concentration of Jews there in Poland.

Hey, you got one right. Of course that also begs the question; "why so many Jews in Poland?" Was Poland the paradisus Iudaeorum when compared to other countries and their treatment of Jews?

When my grandfather sold farm goods to the Jewish shtetl, he had no problem with who they were. I was told that he did wonder why so few of them spoke Polish. Wasn't that the right thing to do when in a host country......for generations? Did that make him an anti Semite? Considering his monetary relationship and even friendship with some of the Jews there, I was also told that he overheard some Jews calling his family, "cattle". Who was the racist (to use an overworked word) here? Ah, those Goyim are so sensitive aren't they?

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	May 26, 11, 19:06 #25
ZIMMY: I was also told that he overheard some Jews calling his family, "cattle". Fluent in Yiddish, was he?

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Edited by: legend May 26, 11, 19:15 #26

Harry:

I'm not sure, but I do know where you should be asking that question: www.stormfront.com You're sure to fit right in over there.

In this post: all Jews are innocent, they are the chosen owns.
Every person who has a question about their involvement and possible negative actions are nazis.
Lets refer them to stormfront.com (what a moron).

Midas:

- you are simply an anti-semite and a moron to boot.

calling someone a ******** Jew" doesnt make one anti-semite. alot of people use this term simply as that idiot or something else.
If I said you were an idiot it doesnt mean you are an idiot.

If I do the nazi solute it doesnt mean im a nazi either. I hated those bastards.

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Edited by: Midas May 26, 11, 19:22 #27

1.

Midas:
grubas - you are simply an anti-semite

Is he? It's so easy to call someone anti this or that or "racist".

Of course he is. I wasn't talking about his ideas on Jews in the Polish communist party, collaboration, however You want to call it, I was talking about this:

The assimilated Polish speaking Jews who considered themselves POLISH first were at home but most of them were not.They were cultural aliens who did not even bother themselves with speaking Polish and did not consider themselves Poles but Jews and the Jews place is in Israel not in Poland

If You don't consider that rant anti-semitic, then I assume You're ok with people who'd say Poles should be kicked out of the UK for not speaking the localt language properly in most cases.

2.

In another thread I pointed out that when I was a kid, I knew a Pole who witnessed Jews riding on Soviet tanks pointing out specific Poles for death, and even shooting some themselves

I was also told that he overheard some Jews calling his family, "cattle". Who was the racist (to use an overworked word) here? Ah, those Goyim are so sensitive aren't they?

And when my neighbour's great grandfather's uncle was young and living in a "shtetl" in Poland he witnessed, with his very own eyes, how the Poles domesticated dinosaurs in order to later unleash their savage fury upon the unsuspecting Jews... The velociraptors, or so he said, were particularly often used for that purpose due to their sheer tenacity...

Anybody else got a story?

the country that kicked your family was ruled by traitors and soviets, why don't you try to sue them eh? - I liked you but now you just pissed me off, big time !

No state can claim immunity for past deeds by way of saying - hey, look, we had a crappy government back in the day, ok? Things don't work like that in international law.

If it makes You feel any better I was just making a point there about things not being black and white and I don't plan to sue Poland for anything, got enough of my own money, thank You.

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May 26, 11, 19:37 #28

RobertLee:

Even Gross admits that Polish Jews in larger part weren't integrated with the rest of the society and didn't consider themselves Poles. If they did then how do you explain their collaboration with the Soviets, which directly resulted in the deaths of very many Poles?
And yes, Jews were let in on Polish lands, when escaping repressions in Western Europe. Yes, they were living for centuries among Poles and other Eastern Europeans - the question begs to be asked: "Why didn't they integrate and why did they choose to stay?"

Because their religious teaching and tribal worldview informs them that they are 'God's chosen people' and that non-Jews are a different life form...This teaching continues to this day, although most Jewish people have the common sense to reject such nonsense...The Jewish elites, however, even though they do not believe in any God, use this teaching to get average Jews to help them advance political aims.

Harry:

No, the border was only closed to Jews who wanted to come into Poland: that is why Kristalnacht happened. The Polish government wanted to deport Jews to Madagascar, a plan which the Nazis also favoured.

I thought that Kristallknacht took place because a Polish Jew living in France assassinated a German diplomat...Of course, the National Socialists, Hitler wing, used this event as an excuse...I am aware of that.

As far as Madagasgar, on the lighter side, perhaps if the Jews had gone there the Island would be like Miami Beach or Las Vegas...Think of it!

On a serious note, I do not approve of any forced relocation of populations, nor do I believe in detention, concentration or work camps.

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May 26, 11, 19:41 #29

Harry:

Do I have a source for the statements contained in the Morgenthau report? Er, yes: the Morgenthau report. Do I have sources showing that at least hundreds and more probably thousands of Jews were murdered by Poles in 1918 to 1921? Yes, lots. Here is one. Here is another. Here is another.

Morgenthau report concluded that the accusations were exaggerated and can't be blamed on the whole nation or government. If you don't like it then the problem lies with you.
The first obsure, one-sided text you linked makes me think: it describes a "horrible crime", "massacre", "shocking carnage", "act of terrifying violence"... - that's interesting way of saying that a couple of Jews suspected of sabotage were executed during war time. While any such act should be condemned, one has to put it in perspective - it was a tiny fraction of all people that were killed on Polish territories that year and can't even be compared to the number of Polish victims of Soviet occupation. That same book a bit earlier describes how the Jews demanded of Pilsudski a separate Jewish Constitution, which best illustrates how assimilated and Polish they felt...

Harry:

Where were they supposed to go?

?? You say they were threathened to lose their lives and you ask where were they supposed to go?? Out of the place where they might have gotten killed! You try to tell me that Jewish parents would risk the lives of their children staying in such a dangerous place as Poland? You mentioned something about Great Britain? Wouldn't they let Jewish refugees in? David Miliband’s family did just that, fleeing the "nazi Belgium":
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3690021.ece

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May 26, 11, 19:42 #30

Midas:

Anybody else got a story?

Yeah, speaking of expulsions and lawsuits that might ensue, I have a story that I didn't witness, and thankfully, it doesn't seem like there are going to be lawsuits.

I also have another story, a personal friend of mine, when I was a kid. Himself and his parents just couldn't wait. You know, communism, general misery that ALL suffered, shortage of goods, stupid communist bureaucracy. Fvck, at the time if someone could travel with their immediate family anywhere outside the USSR block and be able to stay they would garb the chance in a hear beat - a Pole or a Jew.

Years later I heard about them again. They regretted the move to "that shithole" (my translation from Polish to bagno which literally means swamp). They regretted the move they did not have to make. Those Jews who decided to stayed were no better and no worse than those who left, and they were certainly no worse than Poles. I recall no Jew lynching between 1970's and the present times.

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