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Are Jewish historians prejudiced against Poles?


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Edited by: pawian  Oct 3, 11, 00:19    #1
Shyt, a few weeks ago I said I would elaborate on the topic sooner or later.
But I prefered doing other, more interesting things.

Today, I am really pressed for time as I have to return the book to our local library.

It is Resistance by Israel Gutman. About Warsaw Ghetto Rising of 1943.

Some chapters are available here:
http://books.google.pl/books?id=4P_kP4yKqy8C&pg=PA280&lpg=PA280&dq=res istance+gutman&source=bl&ots=lm8Irn1oen&sig=H-hB4_Hidf5eRDW1ted6GZLpjb g&hl=pl&ei=zdeITqGGEemj0QXb-4UH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 &ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

A good book, indeed, I learned a lot of new facts, but I had some doubts which made me wonder if the author was a little prejudiced. I read the book twice, to avoid any unfair accusations.

What is wrong, imho?

1. Gutman delays providing basic facts. E.g., he mentions the fact that Poles who helped Jews in occupied Poland endangered theirs and their families` lives, as Germans used to shoot the hiding Jews and their helpers. However, it is as late as on page 316, in a very short sentence about 15-20 thousand Jews hiding in Warsaw after 1943: they wouldn`t be able to survive if noble Poles didn`t help them, risking their own and their families` lives.

Why is it so succinct and at the end of the book (it has 322 pages) ?

2. In the chapter 5, The Turning Point, Gutman quotes a report by Ludwig Fischer, the governor of Warsaw District who wrote that "Polish press and radio participated in anti-Jewish propaganda campaign in 1941." However, there is no footnote explaining that the so called Polish media were under total control of Nazi Germans.

3. In the chapter 9, Between The Expulsion and January 1943, Gutman writes about Jan Karski`s mission to the USA. Karski alarmed American leaders, also Jewish, about the Holocaust taking place in occupied Poland. They ignored his calls for immediate intervention. Yet, Gutman is very reserved to write about it. Actually, he just mentions Karski`s visit and doesn`t develop it at all.

I consider it unfair because Gutman frequently complains in his book about Polish indifference, that despite living in Poland for centuries, Polish Jews were alien to Poles etc etc. In result, Poles regarded the Holocaust as something which didn`t concern them or matter at all.

Why were American/British/other politicians, among them influential Jews, so reluctant to save Polish Jews? Gutman leaves that question unanswered.

*******


4. In chapter I don`t remember which Gutman says that Poles were suspicious about Jews, and their alleged penchant for communism. However, he doesn`t explain the origin of this conviction in any footnote.


5. General conclusion - Gutmans seems to elaborate a lot on Jewish Polish tensions, and seems strangely hesitant to talk more on the lack of interest in Jewish fate by allies.

s

s




*******
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Karski

In 1942 Karski was selected by Cyryl Ratajski, the Polish Government's Delegate at Home, to perform a secret mission to prime minister Władysław Sikorski in London. Karski was to contact Sikorski as well as various other Polish politicians and inform them about Nazi atrocities in occupied Poland. In order to gather evidence, Karski met Bund activist Leon Feiner and was twice smuggled by Jewish underground leaders into the Warsaw Ghetto for the purpose of showing him first hand what was happening to the Polish Jews. Also, disguised as a Ukrainian camp guard, he visited what he thought was Bełżec death camp.[3]

In 1942 Karski reported to the Polish, British and U.S. governments on the situation in Poland, especially the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto and the Holocaust of the Jews. He had also carried from Poland a microfilm with further information from the Underground Movement on the extermination of European Jews in German occupied Poland. The Polish Foreign Minister, Count Edward Raczynski, provided the Allies on this basis with one of the earliest and most accurate accounts of the Holocaust. A note by Foreign Minister Edward Raczynski entitled The mass extermination of Jews in German occupied Poland, addressed to the Governments of the United Nations on 10 December 1942, would be published later along with other documents in a widely distributed leaflet.

gumishuThreads: 17
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 Oct 3, 11, 00:21    #2
Are Jewish historians prejudiced against Poles?


they are not prejudiced - they are just, well, Jewish :) :P
Polonius3Threads: 1,005
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 Oct 3, 11, 00:32    #3
Let's not demonise historians of this or that nationaltiy. Yes, Jewish hsitorians may be prejudiced against Poles, many Polish historians are suspicious of people like Jan Gross and Bolivian historians may take none-too-kindly a view of Spanish conquistadors. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. Poles idolise the AK as do Ukrainians their UPA, but Gazeta Wyborcza once depicted the AK as Jew-killers, and Poles tend to view the UPA with suspicion and resentment.
Historians are not pre-programmed robots or comptuers but flesh-and-blood human beings. As such, even though they engage in the most objective of empirical research, they ultimately may succumb to emotions and prejudices like anyone else. Having a grandfather or other ancestor once persecuted by an alien foe will more likely than not leave some residue in even the most objective researcher's psyche.
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Edited by: legend  Oct 3, 11, 00:33    #4
http://www.ukemonde.com/holocaust/victims.html

When the Holocaust became exclusively Jewish is clear--right from the beginning. Part of how is answered in the way the stories of the atrocities were covered. But newspapers were not the only places people went for information about the war and its victims. Theatre and cinema of the day also contributed to the perceptions of the Holocaust in the selection of stories they chose to present to the public. What did they present? Beginning in the 1950s, Anne Frank's Diary of a Young Girl (1952) was presented in book, play, and movie--the story of Jewish victims, written by a Jewish victim. In the 1970s and 1980s, American television aired Gerald Green's Holocaust (1978) and Herman Wouk's Winds of War (1983) miniseries, both of which focused almost exclusively on the Jewish people as victims, while neglecting the non-Jewish victims.(20) In the 1990s, Steven Spielberg's Schindler's List (1993) also dealt exclusively with Jewish victims. Typical of the treatment of non-Jews in newspapers and history books, the non-Jew star of Schindler's List was in the role of hero/rescuer. Nowhere does this movie show the millions of non-Jews who also met their deaths in the concentration camps, raids, death marches, and invasions of the various countries. While these examples are by no means all inclusive, they do demonstrate the overwhelming tendency of the entertainment media to consistently portray Jews as the exclusive victims of the Holocaust.

I wanted to add this.

And do you know why this is? Because American Media is DOMINATED by the Jews.
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 Oct 3, 11, 00:57    #5
=legend] While these examples are by no means all inclusive, they do demonstrate the overwhelming tendency of the entertainment media to consistently portray Jews as the exclusive victims of the Holocaust.

I said Gutman is only a bit prejudiced. On the whole, I liked his book. He writes sincerely about the Jewish participation in Holocaust. He isn`t afraid to ask painful questions: How was it possible that the first wave of deportations of Warsaw Jews to gas chambers was successfully carried out by 2000 Jewish policemen, aided by 200 Germans and their Eastern collaborating scum?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Ghetto_Police
ziggi  Oct 3, 11, 11:25    #6
On the international scene, the history of German occupation of Poland strangely is written exclusively by Jewish historians, not Polish, so it is very relevant for us that Jewish historians are prejudiced. Those historians who dare to write more from the Polish perspective rather than Jewish, are under pressure, just like Norman Davies was. Nothing can change as long as historians are afraid that writing about Holocaust in a non-Jewish-centered way may harm their careers.
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 Oct 3, 11, 13:41    #7
Let's not demonise historians of this or that nationaltiy. Yes, Jewish hsitorians may be prejudiced against Poles, many Polish historians are suspicious of people like Jan Gross and Bolivian historians may take none-too-kindly a view of Spanish conquistadors. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. Poles idolise the AK as do Ukrainians their UPA, but Gazeta Wyborcza once depicted the AK as Jew-killers, and Poles tend to view the UPA with suspicion and resentment.
Historians are not pre-programmed robots or comptuers but flesh-and-blood human beings. As such, even though they engage in the most objective of empirical research, they ultimately may succumb to emotions and prejudices like anyone else. Having a grandfather or other ancestor once persecuted by an alien foe will more likely than not leave some residue in even the most objective researcher's psyche.


Where is Polonius and what have you done with him?

That's a great post, thank you.

On the international scene, the history of German occupation of Poland strangely is written exclusively by Jewish historians, not Polish, so it is very relevant for us that Jewish historians are prejudiced. Those historians who dare to write more from the Polish perspective rather than Jewish, are under pressure, just like Norman Davies was. Nothing can change as long as historians are afraid that writing about Holocaust in a non-Jewish-centered way may harm their careers.


The problem is that there are few Polish historians who are writing internationally from a neutral perspective - usually their politics clouds their writing.

However, Timothy Garton-Ash is a fantastic historian who writes about Poland - his book on Solidarity is well recommended.
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 Oct 3, 11, 14:01    #8
Vast majority of historians care first of all about their own, their concentrate on their heroes and victims, rarely mention punks, traitors etc. It's like that all over the world, that's why I find it laughable when some "expats" and others are spreading all the stuff about "Polish myths", "Polish bias" etc. We are definately not worse than average on such issues.
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 Oct 3, 11, 14:55    #9
the non-Jew star of Schindler's List was in the role of hero/rescuer. Nowhere does this movie show the millions of non-Jews who also met their deaths in the concentration camps, raids, death marches, and invasions of the various countries.

What a silly arguement......the film was about a non jew "rescuing" jews, simple.....(oh,and FYI, actually it does portray non Jews in the holocaust,all those in stripey PJs in Plasow are Poles). Saying it doesnt tell about french gypsies or albanian gays being persecuted makes it "anti Polish" or anti anything but nazism is as silly as saying that Saving private Ryan was an insult to all the British and Canadians involved in D Day just because the film focuses on Americans......
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 Oct 3, 11, 15:24    #10
Vast majority of historians care first of all about their own, their concentrate on their heroes and victims, rarely mention punks, traitors etc. It's like that all over the world, that's why I find it laughable when some "expats" and others are spreading all the stuff about "Polish myths", "Polish bias" etc. We are definately not worse than average on such issues

How many books are there about the 225,000 Poles who fought in the German armed forces? I'd say that the number is lower than the number of books about the British Free Corps (which was never larger than 27 men).
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Edited by: Grzegorz_  Oct 3, 11, 15:48    #11
10 ? 20? 30? I don't know to be honest.

the number of books about the British Free Corps

Irving got so overexited with this stuff or do you have so many of similar holocaust deniers ?
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Edited by: PWEl  Oct 3, 11, 16:27    #12
Irving got so overexited with this stuff or do you have so many of similar holocaust deniers ?

Funny how the Englanders pretty much accomplished everything what Hitler wanted to accomplish and got away with it. Not only that, even to this very day they boast about their massacres of the natives, whom they regarded as subhumans. They even managed to pull off such side projects as sending all of their criminals to another continent. Hitler obviously regarded his germanic cousins as peers and no wonder he didn't want to fight them.
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Edited by: Des Essientes  Oct 3, 11, 19:19    #13
Jewish historians that are ardent Zionists may write histories that are prejudiced against Poles because it suits their project, which is to portray Jewish life in Europe as fraught with persecution by anti-Semitic Gentiles, and thus justify the existence of their colony in Palestine as a safehaven.

edited
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 Oct 3, 11, 19:25    #14
Jewish historians that are ardent Zionists may write histories that are prejudiced against Poles because it suits their project, which is to portray Jewish life in Europe as fraught with persecution by anti-Semitic Gentiles, and thus justify the existence of their colony in Palestine as a safehaven.


Or perhaps they might write such things because Polish historians have got a bad habit of portraying Jews in a bad light, too?

Then again, how many Polish history books have you read, or indeed, how many times have you visited Poland to speak to people living here?
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Edited by: Des Essientes  Oct 3, 11, 19:35    #15
Or perhaps they might write such things because Polish historians have got a bad habit of portraying Jews in a bad light, too?

Portraying Jews in a badlight too? Are you saying Jewish historians do this, or are you just unable to express yourself properly in English? Do you really believe that Jews write biased histories about Poles because Polish historians have written biased histories about Jews? If so, then you blame Polish historians for Poles being prejudiciously portrayed by Jewish historians, and that is ridiculous.
Interesting that you should have such good knowledge of what Nazi propaganda says, but of course you would find it a good read.

Knowing that Nazi propaganda dehumanized Jews hardly means I am an expert in it, nor do I read it. I am not a Nazi, but you, PWEI, speak like a Nazi when you de-humanize people. Do you really think you can speak like a Nazi, and then claim that the person who points this out is a Nazi? The reader sees you for the hypocrite that you are.
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 Oct 3, 11, 19:47    #16
God cannot alter the past, though historians can.

Samuel Butler
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 Oct 3, 11, 20:01    #17
Then again, how many Polish history books have you read, or indeed, how many times have you visited Poland to speak to people living here?


spoke to people living here - my grandpa told me once or a couple of times that Jews would spit on Polish catholic passers-by in the morning hours (like from windows of their house) - I never thought about it much but read a couple of years later that such spitting was supposed to bring good luck to them - I am not saying here that it was all Jews who indulged in such activities - I guess not - but it must have been pretty common nevertheless
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 Oct 3, 11, 20:23    #18
spoke to people living here - my grandpa told me once or a couple of times that Jews would spit on Polish catholic passers-by in the morning hours (like from windows of their house)


I sure that a lot of Jews were an utter pain in the @rse
in the same way that ethnic groups can get on each other's t1ts
look at the Somalians and Jamaicans in the UK
come to thing of it, look at the Somalians and just about anyone else

however the wholesale extermination of the Jews by the Nazis has resulted in it being very bad form to criticise them
as it results in you instantly getting branded an anti-semite

I read a book about General Anders. The Poles were in Russia and were smuggling out Jewish non combatants
disguising them as wounded Polish soldiers. They were smuggling out some rabbis too
however they refused to shave their beards or cut their locks
so the Poles had to bandage them up and make out that they were suffering from facial burns
the moment, these guys reached the safety of America, they started blabbing to the press
about Polish anti-semitism
Stalin heard about it and stopped the evacuation route

the Germans invaded Russia and exterminated the Jews who were residing there

the moral of the story when being smuggled out from under the nose of a psychotic despot, keep your gob shut
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 Oct 3, 11, 20:48    #19
general anti-Jewish sentiment of the 1930's in Poland


Polish Catholic/Jewish relations had hit a bit of a low point during the 30s
so there is a danger of anyone leaving the country then would not have had a particularly
rosy picture of their Jewish neighbours

I am struggling to remember the names of my great grandparents let alone be able to quote
anything particularly profound that they said
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Edited by: pawian  Oct 3, 11, 22:49    #20
This thread has already been loaded on Exposing & Fighting Against Global Anti-Semitism & Anti-Jewish Racism site.

http://www.anti-semitism.net/jewish/are-jewish-historians-prejudiced-a gainst-poles.php

I wonder what they are going to do with it.

PS. Mods, thanks for unblocking the thread.
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 Oct 3, 11, 22:56    #21
Polish Catholic/Jewish relations had hit a bit of a low point during the 30s
so there is a danger of anyone leaving the country then would not have had a particularly
rosy picture of their Jewish neighbours


Indeed, it seems to me that many immigrants to America in the late 10's/early 20's only got one side of the story during the turbulent 30's (due to not being there) - and thus caused the current situation.
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Edited by: pawian  Oct 3, 11, 23:11    #22
=pawian]What is wrong, imho?

I forgot to add this point:

6. In chapter 6, Political parties and Youth Movements, Gutmans says that the underground AK Home Army was satisfied with sporadic military actions against Germans because it was preparing all their resources for a major blow which would liberate Poland. It sounds like critisism, especially after he adds that Jews couldn`t wait so long.

Why doesn`t Gutman explain that every armed action against Germans by Poles resulted in mass executions of innocent civilians?

E.g., the earliest retaliation execution took place in 1939 after two Polish criminals killed 2 German soldiers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wawer_massacre

The Wawer massacre refers to the execution of 107 Polish civilians on the night of 26 to 27 December 1939 by the Nazi German occupiers of Wawer (near Warsaw), Poland. The execution was a response to the deaths of two German NCOs. 120 people were arrested and 114 shot, of which 7 survived.

It was one of the earliest massacres (probably the second, after the Bochnia massacre of 52 civilians on December 18 to occur in occupied Poland. It was also one of the first instances of the large scale implementation by Germany of the doctrine of collective responsibility in the General Government in Poland since the end of the invasion in September.
On 3 March 1947 the Polish Supreme National Tribunal for the Trial of War Criminals (Najwyższy Trybunał Narodowy) sentenced Max Daume to death.[1] Wilhelm Wenzel was extradited to Poland by the Soviets in 1950 and executed in November 1951

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 Oct 3, 11, 23:39    #23
this thread has been rather butchered by the mods
which is understandable as they wanted to delete a lot of nasty squabbling
between forum members

the fact remains that a lot of Poles left Poland in the 1920s taking their
anti Jewish views with them to North America

the Nazis went on to butcher 6 million innocent people however
it is the Poles who have the reputation as anti semitics
not the Germans

Did Polish gentiles fall out with their Jewish neighbours prior to the war?
Of course they did. Were Poles making it difficult for Jews to
enter universities? I believe that I read that they were being
prejudiced against. Did the Poles set their stall out to wipe them
out? not at all

A lot of Poles were an utter pain in the @rse and so were their Jewish neighbours

They were sure to have sorted things out in time, however due to
German invasion, it is far too late
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 Oct 3, 11, 23:40    #24
This thread has already been loaded on Exposing & Fighting Against Global Anti-Semitism & Anti-Jewish Racism site.

I wonder what they are going to do with it.

PS. Mods, thanks for unblocking the thread.

you have become the most anti-semitic poster of the PF pawian hahaha - hillarious


6. In chapter 6, Political parties and Youth Movements, Gutmans says that the underground AK Home Army was satisfied with sporadic military actions against Germans because it was preparing all their resources for a major blow which would liberate Poland. It sounds like critisism, especially after he adds that Jews couldn`t wait so long.

for the Jews the world simply revolves around them - so no - Poles should have sacrificed the existence of their own nation for the sake of trying to save Jews (which would end in disaster anyway) - now tell Jews that they should have sacrificed their own nation for the sake of saving as many Polish lives as possible when the Soviets invaded in 1939 and when they started imprisoning and then executing Polish officials and sending their family members to the wintery steppes of Kazakhstan (ok many conservative Jews were also deportated there)
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 Oct 3, 11, 23:42    #25
This thread has already been loaded on Exposing & Fighting Against Global Anti-Semitism & Anti-Jewish Racism site.

I wonder what they are going to do with it.

Definitely they are not going to ponder over your points, Pawian.
Here is a nice racist poll question from that website:
In which year will Muslims demographics overtake our Israel homeland ?

Also funny how they placed a story about an arrest of a Jew on suspicion of rape under "anti-semitism" :D
http://www.anti-semitism.net/anti-semitism/jewish-homosexual-rapist.ph p
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 Oct 4, 11, 00:16    #26
=PWEl]
Definitely they are not going to ponder over your points, Pawian.

OK. They are just collecting. :):):)
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 Oct 4, 11, 01:29    #27
This thread has already been loaded on Exposing & Fighting Against Global Anti-Semitism & Anti-Jewish Racism site.

If you spend all your life looking for enemies you will find few friends.
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 Oct 4, 11, 07:58    #28
the Nazis went on to butcher 6 million innocent people however
it is the Poles who have the reputation as anti semitics
not the Germans

Did Polish gentiles fall out with their Jewish neighbours prior to the war?
Of course they did. Were Poles making it difficult for Jews to
enter universities? I believe that I read that they were being
prejudiced against. Did the Poles set their stall out to wipe them
out? not at all

A lot of Poles were an utter pain in the @rse and so were their Jewish neighbours

They were sure to have sorted things out in time, however due to
German invasion, it is far too late


Some good points here.
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 Oct 4, 11, 08:10    #29
The reason is simple ZIONISM = NAZISM.
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 Oct 4, 11, 09:10    #30
The reason is simple ZIONISM = NAZISM.


Nonsense. Zionism is a Jewish nationalism, It can be healthy or not, just like any other nationalism.


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