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Are Jewish historians prejudiced against Poles?


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peterwegThreads: 35
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 Oct 4, 11, 10:12    #31
How many books are there about the 225,000 Poles who fought in the German armed forces? I'd say that the number is lower than the number of books about the British Free Corps (which was never larger than 27 men).



Read this to discover why that figure is bullshit.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Poles_in_the_Wehrmacht# cite_note-0

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 Oct 4, 11, 11:33    #32
there appear to have been 59 Brits who fought in a special SS unit
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=469339910808272137#

It is a well made documentary.

the wikipedia link looks fairly convincing

The history of Poles in the Wehrmacht, the unified armed forces of Nazi Germany, began with the German invasion of Poland in 1939. More than 225,000 citizens of the Polish Second Republic served in the Wehrmacht,[1] and some in the Kriegsmarine and Waffen SS. The majority of these Polish citizens were of German extraction

just what is your point Peter?
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 Oct 4, 11, 11:40    #33
there appear to have been 59 Brits who fought in a special SS unit

None of them actually fought: the unit saw no active service at all. And that figure of 59 is the total for all British and Commonwealth, not British alone.
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 Oct 4, 11, 12:22    #34
I am watching the documentary at the moment

the title, 'the Brits who fought for Hitler' is a bit misleading I know

I will watch it to the end and comment later

As for the commonwealth, India was part of the commonwealth and they fielded a unit of 2000 men
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 Oct 4, 11, 13:32    #35
having watched it to the end, it is a bit confusing as the documentary later stated that the Free Corps reached its maximum
strength of 29. There was at least one Australian in the Free Corps.

They came under fire from the Russian mortars on the German side of the Oder so they were front line troops
and being asked to report on Russian positions and relay information is pretty close to fighting in my book.

They would not have been able to fire shots in anger at the Russians due to the distance across the river.
They were evacuated before the Russians launched their attack and most of them were prosecuted at the end of the war

there were approximately 150,000 British and commonwealth POWs
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 Oct 4, 11, 14:33    #36
Jewish diaspora especially this one, which is located in Norh America will always bear the guilt of doing literally nothing for their countrymen during the holocaust in Poland . Thats why, they will always be focused on shedding all the blame on Poles . Blaming Poles is the most convenient way, because it all happened on Polish soil . Polish antisemitism is and was not larger than in any other European country, but this will never matter to so called Jewish historians, who will always be dragging out every sample of antisemitic behaviour even if it is a single, unmeaningful act.

Here is a very intersting interview by Julius Osuchowski with Joseph Nichthauser
Brazilian Polish Jew who stands against defamatory hate campaign against
Poland.
Julius Osuchowski: Sir , where is the opinion that the Poles are anti-Semites taken from . Who broadcasts these opinions .?

Joseph Nitchthauser: Sir! Polish anti-Semitism is a terrible folly. I` ve been here for eight years a president of the Jewish Federation and has always fought against such prejudices . The generation that was born here, has been taught by their parents ,who were born in Poland, that the Poles are anti-Semite.

I survived Auschwitz and other concentration camps, only because I learned to weld. I learned right away as soon as they took me to the camp. It was a small camp in Upper Silesia, near Katowice, some 50 kilometers away from and there I learned to weld .
In Auschwitz, it was a commando of 21, was called "Kraftwerk", cocsisted of welders. Some 300 people, welders themselves.
I do not fear the Jews. I am a Jew, will die a Jew, my father was a Jew, does not practice any religion, but also I'm not an atheist. On the door I have a Jewish symbol
Poland was the only one of the seventeen countries that the Nazis occupied, republics, monarchies, which did not provide even one SS or voluntarily, at least one soldier of the Wehrmacht.

All other countries have provided.

Ukrainians - were the worst the same as the German SS.
Dutch SS - it was also very evil .
Denmark - this beautiful country, who saved nearly all its Jews, supplied the SS with Danish soldiers .

Do you know that France - was the only country in occupied countries in which French Jews in a number of 400,000 were not arrested by Germans. They did it by themselves and all of them were transported to Auschwitz.

No Jew will admit the simple fact that the Jews helped the Nazis to destroy us , but it was for real.

About two weeks ago I was invited by the Brazilian television to just talk about it.
In Auschwitz, there were not enough guards to guard us.

Sometimes 10,000 sometimes 20,000 people a day were sent to gas chambers , it took several hundred people to make this terrible procedure to work. SS almost every fortnight choose from among the Jewish prisoners some strong and healthy men, a group of three to five hundred people who were assigned to work in the crematoria and gas chambers. After three weeks, this group went to the gas chamber itself .

Never to my knowledge and research, and to this day I still am researching the issue of the Holocaust, I found any case , that a Jew said - “no” . What was at risk ? – He would be immediately shot .

If Jews resisted , Germany would not be able to do what they did. By simply just not having enough people to make this machine functioning , but thanks to the Jewish detachments, which were harnessed in this machinery of death they were able to do that .


Germany did not have the people . Most of them who were able to serve were fighting as army soldiers on war fronts . Poles were working in the fields, in factories.
Prisoners of war - all those Americans, British, New Zealanders, Australians - worked on the railroad tracks, and so on. So the reality was that Jews were forced to work in the crematoria and gas chambers! But being able to resist ! They wanted to save their lives, but what a pity they saved them , but only two weeks?
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 Oct 4, 11, 14:37    #37
hythorn
As for the commonwealth, India was part of the commonwealth and they fielded a unit of 2000 men

Yes, good point. I should have said "all white British and Commonwealth", apologies for the oversight.

hythorn
having watched it to the end, it is a bit confusing as the documentary later stated that the Free Corps reached its maximum
strength of 29. There was at least one Australian in the Free Corps.

They came under fire from the Russian mortars on the German side of the Oder so they were front line troops

The maximum strength at any one time was 27. The total number of members was 59. Despite being shelled, they were never front-line troops (field hospitals get shelled, doesn't make the doctors front-line troops) and never saw combat.


So as to make this vaguely on topic, is there any evidence of Jewish historians being prejudiced against British men who served in the Nazi armed forces? If there is not, why do some people claim that Jewish historians are prejudiced against Poland, given that three or four times more Poles fought in the Allied armed forces than in the Nazi armed forces?
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 Oct 4, 11, 14:46    #38
Despite being shelled, they were never front-line troops (field hospitals get shelled, doesn't make the doctors front-line troops) and never saw combat.


valid point and they certainly did not fire any shots in anger against the Russians
One of them had been a concentration camp guard and had been attached to a German army unit prior to enrolling in the Free Corps but he does appear to have been a raving psychopath
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 Oct 4, 11, 15:16    #39
Well, the "Poles" who fought in Wehrmacht could be divided into raughly two groups:
1. Germans, who were Polish citizens before 1939 and joined volountarily
2. Silesians, Kashubians, Poles with German ancestry etc, who were drafted forcibly and deserted at the nearest opportunity.
But when somebody makes repeated comments about "225 000 Poles in Wehrmacht" on a high traffic internet forum, I think he deserves to have his name featured under his statement, so that he can be properly quoted by others. Do you mind Christian?
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 Oct 4, 11, 16:28    #40
Interview by Julius Osuchowski with Joseph Nichthauser
Brazilian Polish Jew weapons against defamatory hate campaign
Poland, - the next excerpt .


When a Pole helped a Jew , not only him, but the whole family was shot and the Poles did it.

American Jews knew everything what happens to the European Jews, both before 1939 and during the war. I have here a document, which was published in the Jewish press, here in Brazil.

In "Redzenia judaica" - magazine printed in Sao Paulo - its editor wrote that American Jews have done almost nothing to save Jews from extermination in Europe. Reason? Feared competition for jobs. This what he wrote, he was not an idiot – he was a Jew who knew perfectly what and why he writes. It was Oskar Minc . He still lives, is retired.

And what have other governments done even before 1939?
The British closed the gates.
Delegation of Jewish, who went to Australia from there, asking for admitting European Jews, was said that there are racial problems and they do not want to import them from Europe. They closed the door for Jewish.

And do you know which country opened its borders to Jews then? Do not you know? It was POLAND, sir.

I am a witness, as it was in this tiny town Andrychów. Do you know where Andrychów is ?

Julius Osuchowski: Of course, I know.

Joseph Nitchthauser: Yes? Today it is a big city. Before the war it was the small town of 5,000 inhabitants. Sir there was nothing. Andrychów was then near the border. One day we saw, around three or four months before the war, a wagon, which rode to Wadowice. Some stayed in Andrychów. They were German Jews, whom Hitler had even allowed to leave German territory and to go wherever they want. Poland borders were opened completely. I am the one who spoke with German Jews. I speak German as I was born in Gliwice .


Julius Osuchowski: Few years ago, the Washington Holocaust museum has been opened One of my friends has called it the Museum of American Jewish Shame.

Joseph Nitchthauser: Sacred words, please Lord. This is really a great shame jewish museum in the USA. People who have done nothing to help other people, especially when we had to save lives, most often blame others for the sin of omission. Yes, more! Very easy it is to show to others and blame them, not saying anything about himself or about his family. Today in the U.S. Jews want to forget, will try to whitewash the local Jewish environment from sins of omission in relation to their countrymen in the terrible war which engulfed Europe. It is very convenient position to defend raising cries of anti-Semitism.

Joseph Nitchthuser: In Jerusalem,there is a famous museum called Yad Vashem . Next to this museum it is the avenue where the trees are. On each tree there is a plaque with the names of families and people of non-Jews who saved lives of the Jews during the Nazi occupation And you know what? There are almost only Polish names! Before the war in some Polish towns, there was almost 90% Jewish population , but in the whole country Jewish population was about 15%. In today France with its large Muslim population racism is part of everyday life , why would Poland be different at those times , where in one Polish town almost entire population was Jewish so it was easy to form and spread racial prejudices by Polish minority.


Nobody from the U.S. Jewish diaspora says a word about the fact that Poland was the only country in the world where Jew living, born in it, was not forced to speak Polish..

So where is the Polish anti-Semitism?


Jewish historians know these facts , but rarely mention about them.
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 Oct 4, 11, 16:38    #41
polmed
And do you know which country opened its borders to Jews then? Do not you know? It was POLAND, sir.

What an interesting lie. Poland wouldn't even let in Jews who had Polish passports!
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 Oct 4, 11, 16:50    #42
Today it is a big city.

Sorry but nobody but either an utter cretin or a pathological liar would claim that a place with 21,691 inhabitants is a "big city".
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 Oct 4, 11, 16:55    #43
America and the West are fondle of such hooligans as Gross and narratives of a dark, anti-Semitic Poland and the U.S. government officially informs us on the restitution of Jewish property (a country which itself has stolen property from the Indians ). It should be recalled that troubled Poland accepted in 1939 - reluctantly and grudgingly, but still – more than 20,000 Jewish refugees.
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 Oct 4, 11, 17:08    #44
Before the war the Jews tried to emigrate from Germany . In the years 1933-1938 about 190,000 Jews left Germany , the Western countries tried to restrict the influx of immigrants. It became a famous story of the ship "St. Louis" with 930 passengers on board, which for two weeks was cruising off the coast of Miami, hoping for asylum in the U.S., then returned to Europe

Above and current data taken from a book -" Żydzi. Antysemityzm. Holocaust ", Wyd. Dolnośląskie, Wrocław 1997, seria „Tego nie ma w podręczniku”;

http://www.jhi.pl/en/home/index/0.html
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 Oct 4, 11, 17:10    #45
Funny how the individuals who accuse Poles of not being willing to die en masse in order to save Jews, are usually descendants of people who did absolutely nothing, 0, nill, to save those Jews. This is an ugly way to deal with your guilty conscience!
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 Oct 4, 11, 17:16    #46
polmed
the U.S. government officially informs us on the restitution of Jewish property (a country which itself has stolen property from the Indians ).

Personally I find the US government to be exceedingly hypocritical here: the US embassy in Warsaw is built on land which was stolen from its owner by the communist regime!
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 Oct 4, 11, 17:20    #47
PWEI -
Sorry but nobody but either an utter cretin or a pathological liar would claim that a place with 21,691 inhabitants is a "big city".


According to Mr Joseph Nitchthuser who called the city of Andrychów a big city , it is irrelevant somehow that this town is 4 times bigger than it was during the war . But this fact how he named the city big or small is unimportant in comparison to other facts he was describing in his interview . Face the facts Harry, that you are referring this derogatory comments to no one but yourself .
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 Oct 4, 11, 17:46    #48
polmed
According to Mr Joseph Nitchthuser who called the city of Andrychów a big city , it is irrelevant somehow that this town is 4 times bigger than it was during the war .

Our one source of info as to what the size was is one which we know to be lying about the current size of the town.

polmed
other facts he was describing in his interview .

Why should be listen to a word said by somebody who has been shown to be a liar?
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 Oct 4, 11, 18:16    #49
5. General conclusion - Gutmans seems to elaborate a lot on Jewish Polish tensions, and seems strangely hesitant to talk more on the lack of interest in Jewish fate by allies.


Pawian, the Jews blame everyone for aiding the German genocide of the Jews. This is what basically gives Israel a free hand in the middle east.

Don;t get me wrong. Every country had some nazi collaborators, but they were for the most part few in numbers. The jews just focus on all the negative aspects caused by the few traitors. The more they talk/write about this, the more people believe it and therefore the more support Israel gets.
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 Oct 4, 11, 20:30    #50
=polmed]Jewish diaspora especially this one, which is located in Norh America will always bear the guilt of doing literally nothing for their countrymen during the holocaust in Poland

They only sent some money, that is all.

=polmed]Thats why, they will always be focused on shedding all the blame on Poles . Blaming Poles is the most convenient way, because it all happened on Polish soil . Polish antisemitism is and was not larger than in any other European country, but this will never matter to so called Jewish historians, who will always be dragging out every sample of antisemitic behaviour even if it is a single, unmeaningful act.

It is really sad but I hope it concerns only a minority who seem not only to put the blame on Poles for their real or alleged anti-semitism, but also blacken them in a horrible way.
I found this opinion by a Jewish survivor, edited by a Jewish historian, as extremely unfair:

Very little of the underground's activities were of such strategic importance as to affect the course of the war. We limited ourselves to terrorist activities or sudden attacks on the SS or the Gestapo. The majority of the Poles didn't come in droves to the ranks of the underground. This was not a movement on a national scale. The loss of their liberty did not matter to the Polish nation as a whole. The Poles were accustomed to living under the rod. In addition to this, the Germans had implemented and were carrying out all that the anti-Semitic Poles had schemed to do in the depths of their hearts. Now, many of them could enjoy the abandoned possessions that were left in their hands after the Jews were driven away or put to death.


http://www.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/Dzialoszyce/dzi298.html
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 Oct 4, 11, 20:51    #51
the Jews blame everyone for aiding the German genocide of the Jews. This is what basically gives Israel a free hand in the middle east.


they have free hand in middle east, because A us is their big brother and B the richest jews are behind all admins in us to protect their interests

Don;t get me wrong. Every country had some nazi collaborators, but they were for the most part few in numbers. The jews just focus on all the negative aspects caused by the few traitors. The more they talk/write about this, the more people believe it and therefore the more support Israel gets.


the jews or lets say their politics is made in that way that they mostly are in the role of the victim. that is what they sort of 'learned' through history. they are never in the role of the persecutor
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 Oct 4, 11, 20:59    #52
hey Sascha, who are you going to vote for now that Hitler is dead?
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 Oct 4, 11, 21:03    #53
hey Sascha, who are you going to vote for now that Hitler is dead?


dude, what is ur problem? u think all german are nazis, right? btw, he died/killed himself in 1945 ;)

just let me tell u that i am regarding political point on the far far other side of the lunatic austrian.

im not a voter.
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 Oct 4, 11, 21:10    #54
thanks for the clarification.
appreciate it
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Edited by: TheOther  Oct 4, 11, 21:10    #55
Quote from Pawian's post: In addition to this, the Germans had implemented and were carrying out all that the anti-Semitic Poles had schemed to do in the depths of their hearts.

Hey Pawian, just saw this quote and was wondering whether you know how the relationship between ethnic Poles, ethnic Germans and Jews were during the time of the partitions? Any book or other source you can recommend?
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Edited by: pawian  Oct 4, 11, 21:43    #56
=TheOther]Hey Pawian, just saw this quote and was wondering whether you know how the relationship between ethnic Poles, ethnic Germans and Jews were during the time of the partitions? Any book or other source you can recommend?

You can begin with this:
http://web.ku.edu/~eceurope/hist557/lect6.htm

The Jewish population of Russian Poland grew to about 10% overall of the population by 1914, but in the cities and towns it often reached 30% or more, for example in Warsaw, while in the eastern market towns it sometimes reached 80%. Most of the Jews were unassimilated Hasidim (Hasidic), that is, strictly Orthodox Jews. They lived in their own compact communities in certain parts of large towns, or predominated in small towns they called "shtetls." However, some assimilated (polonized) Jews appeared in banking, industry, law and medicine.
After 1864, there was an increase of anti-Semitism, though not as strong or violent as in Russia proper. Polish anti-Semitism was largely economic stemming from competition between Polish and Jewish small business. This was aggravated by different religions and languages . (Most Jews spoke Yiddish, based on German, though they knew enough Polish for trade purposes). At the same time, Poles resented most educated Jews' adherence to Russian culture, as well as the influx of russified Jews from Lithuania, called "Litwaks." (Pron. Leetfacks).


Then you can move to

From assimilation to antisemitism: the "Jewish question" in Poland, 1850-1914

The large number of Jews living in Polish lands had lived as a separate estate from the Poles until the mid-nineteenth century. As modern ideologies of democratic, homogeneous national societies came to life, this separateness became a problem. Focusing on several long-term factors and one major event-the Revolution of 1905-Weeks traces Poland's failed attempts to integrate its Jewish communities into the country's social fabric. While Jews became politically engaged during the Industrial Revolution, social integration remained elusive.

http://books.google.com/books/about/From_assimilation_to_antisemitism. html?id=c6ttAAAAMAAJ

and

The Jews in Polish culture, by Aleksander Hertz:
http://books.google.pl/books?id=APRYwrQWy-AC&pg=PA261&lpg=PA261&dq=lit waks+jews+prus&source=bl&ots=IoBCrs4y6n&sig=jGFLxPCY8cEUzAYx8eNvjTmJOr 4&hl=pl&ei=yF6LTpSxIcvLtAbKscSNAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum =8&ved=0CFgQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=litwaks%20jews%20prus&f=false


and

Poles and Jews: a failed brotherhood

http://books.google.pl/books?id=VQqO8LBNBbsC&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=lit vaks+jews+prus&source=bl&ots=zXun-xRG2v&sig=4eS3iK76J0n6NCf2H3mu5tHEMf 8&hl=pl&ei=UmGLTpiAOoPHtAbepu2XAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum =3&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=litvaks%20jews%20prus&f=false


Finally, an article: Traditional Jewish attitudes toward Poles
http://www.glaukopis.pl/pdf/czytelnia/TraditionalJewishAttitudesToward Poles_MarkPaul.pdf


A curiosity - an anti-Jewish publication from 1920:
STEPHANIE LAUDYN A World Problem Jews — Poland— Humanity

The new crowds of Russian Jews (Litwaks) penetrated everywhere, overflowed everything, stirred up the Polish Jews, who were infinitely more cultured and better educated, and touched the most sensitive fibre of Polish consciousness with that brutality which scorns the weaker. But it is best to cite statistics illustrating how hostile the foreign element became towards the Poles, as it grew in number and strength.

http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924028644668/cu31924028644668_djvu.t xt
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 Oct 4, 11, 21:46    #57
Cool. Thank you!
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 Oct 16, 11, 04:11    #58
i need to read this thread but somewhere Davies there was discussion about how history becomes contemporary political commentary, my guess is this guy wrote this book in a semester as a retort to a discussion he saw on tv hah what?


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