PolishForums.com
POLAND . The Unofficial Guide
Unanswered | Archives
Republic of Poland Online Witamy, Guest | PF Members | Gold Members

Polish Forums / History of Poland /

The Jewish nation was invented in th 19th century - says an Israeli historian.


page 1 of 10:  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  Next » posts: 286

Grzegorz_Threads: 81
Posts: 6,213
Joined: Nov 16, 06
Edited by: Grzegorz_  Dec 19, 09, 19:39    #1
Shlomo Sand:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Sand

In his book Matai ve’ech humtza ha’am hayehudi? (The Invention of the Jewish People), "[Sand] tries to prove that the Jewish people never existed as a "nation-race" with a common origin, but rather is a colorful mix of groups that at various stages in history adopted the Jewish religion. He argues that for a number of Zionist ideologues, the mythical perception of the Jews as an ancient people led to truly racist thinking".[6]

One component of Sand's argument is that the people who were the original Jews living in Israel, contrary to what is accepted history, were not exiled following the Bar Kokhba revolt. He has suggested that much of the present day world Jewish population are individuals, and groups, who converted to Judaism at later periods. Additionally, he suggests that the story of the exile was a myth promoted by early Christians to recruit Jews to the new faith. Sand writes that "Christians wanted later generations of Jews to believe that their ancestors had been exiled as a punishment from God."[7] Sand argues that most of the Jews were not exiled by the Romans, and were permitted to remain in the country. He puts the number of those exiled at tens of thousands at most. He further argues that many of the Jews converted to Islam following the Arab conquest, and were assimilated among the conquerors. He concludes that the progenitors of the Palestinian Arabs were Jews.[8]

Sand explains the birth of the concept of a Jewish people as follows : "[a]t a certain stage in the 19th century intellectuals of Jewish origin in Germany, influenced by the folk character of German nationalism, took upon themselves the task of inventing a people "retrospectively," out of a thirst to create a modern Jewish people. From historian Heinrich Graetz on, Jewish historians began to draw the history of Judaism as the history of a nation that had been a kingdom, became a wandering people and ultimately turned around and went back to its birthplace."[6]

He also comments that: "It is true that I am an historian of France and Europe, and not of the ancient period. (...)",[6] and that: "I’ve been criticised in Israel for writing about Jewish history when European history is my specialty. But a book like this needed a historian who is familiar with the standard concepts of historical inquiry used by academia in the rest of the world."[7]

Dude is a Marxist, so he is definately not my hero and some of that stuff seems to be too gross (and even If that was true I would still think that Israel has a right to exist) however I have often wondered how so many Jews could have so white skin... often whiter than average Poles... It takes much more than 2 thousand years to change the colour of the skin so much. What do you think about It ?

BrutalButcherThreads: 1
Posts: 623
Joined: Nov 10, 09
 Dec 19, 09, 20:02    #2
Grzegorz_

They mixed with the people of the countries they lived in duh...
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Dec 19, 09, 20:11    #3
Greg, have you ever heard of a country called Jewland? No, didn't think so!
Grzegorz_Threads: 81
Posts: 6,213
Joined: Nov 16, 06
 Dec 19, 09, 20:23    #4
BrutalButcher:
They mixed with the people of the countries they lived in duh...

I will later tell you what this guy says as I'm reading about It now...

Seanus:
Greg, have you ever heard of a country called Jewland?

No...
enkiduThreads: 18
Posts: 983
Joined: Sep 23, 08
Edited by: enkidu  Dec 19, 09, 20:31    #5
What is so wrong about this? "Nationality" was an idea invented in XIX century. Maybe the Polish people invented it a little bit sooner - in XVIII as a fondness to "Polish way of life" (read: golden freedom)?
"Nation" and "nationality" are ideas with roots in XIX century. So what wrong if Jewish nation was invented in this period?
BrutalButcherThreads: 1
Posts: 623
Joined: Nov 10, 09
 Dec 19, 09, 20:41    #6
Grzegorz_

Dude, what's the purpose of this thread. Ok, let's say Polish nation also started in the 19th century. What does it change?
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Dec 19, 09, 20:47    #7
That guy Sand sounds like a real nutjob. He is going across what is virtually conventional wisdom on the topic. How does he know about exiling, was he there?
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,431
Joined: May 28, 09
Edited by: PlasticPole  Dec 19, 09, 20:55    #8
Grzegorz_:
Sand argues that most of the Jews were not exiled by the Romans, and were permitted to remain in the country. He puts the number of those exiled at tens of thousands at most. He further argues that many of the Jews converted to Islam following the Arab conquest, and were assimilated among the conquerors. He concludes that the progenitors of the Palestinian Arabs were Jews.[8]

That does sound plausible. It's not hard to believe the Jews stayed and, under pressure, converted. Some stayed as Jews, while other converted to Islam, and some of the Jews in Europe are descendants of Jews who converted in other parts of the world, which doesn't make them less Jewish because, by the Jewish law, a convert is just as Jewish.
Palestinians have some things in common with the Jews in the New Testament. I believe they are descended from them. They are fanatical enough to be.
As soon as we convince the Palestinians they are related to the Jews, the sooner we can have world peace.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07
 Dec 19, 09, 20:59    #9
PlasticPole:
As soon as we convince the Palestinians they are related to the Jews, the sooner we can have world peace.

Why not the other way around?
If the Jews had immigrated into Palestine as Palis we wouldn't had have a war at all (probably)...;)
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
Edited by: Seanus  Dec 19, 09, 21:01    #10
1) Palestinians didn't descend from the Jews

2) Many are not fanatical at all

3) Convince them? What, and ignore history?

4) The Romans exiled Jews. Didn't you hear about the destruction of the temple?

5) Define 'the Jewish nation'
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,431
Joined: May 28, 09
 Dec 19, 09, 21:03    #11
Seanus:
4) The Romans exiled the Jews. Didn't you hear about the destruction of the temple?

The Romans exiled every single Jew?
BrutalButcherThreads: 1
Posts: 623
Joined: Nov 10, 09
 Dec 19, 09, 21:06    #12
PlasticPole

nO and seanus is right. Palestinians are NOT descendants of the ancient Hebrews...
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,431
Joined: May 28, 09
 Dec 19, 09, 21:08    #13
BrutalButcher:
Palestinians are NOT descendants of the ancient Hebrews...

How do you know?
enkiduThreads: 18
Posts: 983
Joined: Sep 23, 08
 Dec 19, 09, 21:09    #14
BrutalButcher:
nO and seanus is right. Palestinians are NOT descendants of the ancient Hebrews...

And who are you if you are so sure? Some kind of wise-man? (lol)
BrutalButcherThreads: 1
Posts: 623
Joined: Nov 10, 09
 Dec 19, 09, 21:12    #15
enkidu

Being wise is not the same as being smart or having read a lot.

Palestinians are Arabs/semites, thus they are genetically related to Jews. That's true, but Palestinians are descendants of the Arabs of the Arabian peninsule (Saudi ARabia) and not of the HEbrews who lived in Canaan.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Dec 19, 09, 21:14    #16
Philistines and those from Canaan are different right enough. I didn't say ALL Jews were exiled, PP.
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,431
Joined: May 28, 09
 Dec 19, 09, 21:16    #17
That isn't convincing. How do you know Jews who lived two thousand years ago are not related to the Palestinians? You cannot prove without certainty they aren't.
BrutalButcherThreads: 1
Posts: 623
Joined: Nov 10, 09
 Dec 19, 09, 21:18    #18
PlasticPole

You can't prove the opposite either.
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,431
Joined: May 28, 09
 Dec 19, 09, 21:19    #19
But it's more probable than what you say considering the history of the region...
enkiduThreads: 18
Posts: 983
Joined: Sep 23, 08
 Dec 19, 09, 21:22    #20
BrutalButcher:
Palestinians are Arabs/semites, thus they are genetically related to Jews. That's true, but Palestinians are descendants of the Arabs of the Arabian peninsule (Saudi ARabia) and not of the HEbrews who lived in Canaan.

That is interesting theory. But still - just a theory. Can you prove it? I don't see any reason why indigenous people of Palestine can't convert to islam somewhere in the VIII century and therefore being Jews by genetics and Muslims by religion.
By the way - even if this is true that Palestinians have more in common with ancient Jews than, let's say, American Jews - they are still Palestinians and Muslims. I don't see any potential problem with that.
BrutalButcherThreads: 1
Posts: 623
Joined: Nov 10, 09
 Dec 19, 09, 21:24    #21
enkidu

The indigenous people of Palestine....which people do you mean? many were there! Jews, Greeks, Romans ,Persians...the Arabs went there in the 7th century....centuries after the jews were kicked out by the romans!
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09
[Suspended]
 Dec 19, 09, 21:24    #22
BrutalButcher:
You can't prove the opposite either.

Genetics have proven that, google is your friend, it also proven that modern Jews have very little, often nothing in common with the ancient ones.
BrutalButcherThreads: 1
Posts: 623
Joined: Nov 10, 09
 Dec 19, 09, 21:27    #23
Sokrates

When I write my homeworks for the university, I trust google and wikipedia. really.


(sarcasm off)
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Dec 19, 09, 21:28    #24
Genetics haven't really proven much at all, Sok, otherwise there would be broad consensus and there isn't.
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09
[Suspended]
Edited by: Sokrates  Dec 19, 09, 21:30    #25
BrutalButcher:
When I write my homeworks for the university, I trust google and wikipedia. really.

Who says anything about wikipedia? Among many reasons such as anyone can edit it dumb buggers like you could undermine it, its an old issue really, that European Jews are in no way connected to the original ones, even their faith is a watered down version and their genes indicate a Khazar/European origin, consequenty Jews who settled in Israel are completely different people from Jews who lived there for 2000 years aka "Tropical Jews".
Seanus:
Genetics haven't really proven much at all, Sok, otherwise there would be broad consensus and there isn't.

No there would not, it would undermine everything the little monkeys base their ideology on, the only genetic research "proving" continuity among Jews is sponsored by them.
enkiduThreads: 18
Posts: 983
Joined: Sep 23, 08
 Dec 19, 09, 21:38    #26
I still feel a duty to ask: Even IF Palestinians are descendants of ancient Jews - is that change anything? Is that mean anything?
I've been learned on this forum that "Jewisness" is religion, not a nation or family. So what's wrong if the Palestinians have the same genes as ancient Jews, and American Jews are not?
What is wrong with that?
Obviously - Palestinians are not Jews.
TheOtherThreads: 5
Posts: 1,584
Joined: Jul 13, 09
 Dec 19, 09, 21:39    #27
Who knows, maybe the Old Testament is actually a fairytale and the tribe of Israel didn't exist at all?
mephiasThreads: 15
Posts: 812
Joined: Nov 14, 08
 Gold Member MEMBER
 Dec 19, 09, 21:44    #28
enkidu:
Even IF Palestinians are descendants of ancient Jews - is that change anything? Is that mean anything?

Very good question. It should not change. But unfortunately many people educated in the way to think they have very pure genes of one nation and it makes them superior to others. In this case it is something bad to have arabic genes which is clearly not.
BrutalButcherThreads: 1
Posts: 623
Joined: Nov 10, 09
 Dec 19, 09, 21:47    #29
enkidu:
e

Don't learn from this forum.
TheOther

That's an obsolete argument. The tribes of Israel did exist. Coins and ceramic from the Time of King of David have been found in Israel, so it's enough to prove the existence of the ancient Hebrews.
Sokrates

Boy are you stuck in the past. Genetic studies have confirmed that the "white" jews are as semitic as their black and brown counterparts from the middle east and Africa. Stop the khazar hoax.
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,431
Joined: May 28, 09
Edited by: PlasticPole  Dec 19, 09, 22:06    #30
BrutalButcher:
The indigenous people of Palestine....which people do you mean? many were there! Jews, Greeks, Romans ,Persians...the Arabs went there in the 7th century....centuries after the jews were kicked out by the romans!

There were all kinds of people down there, during the Roman Empire. There were slaves and these slaves had children by the slave masters and other slaves. It's likely there was genetic mixing during the Roman Empire.
At one time, Greeks had a significant influence on Jewish culture and life, so we have to take that into consideration. It was considered cool to be somewhat Greek,so you might call that a watering down of Judaism, in some sects, due to the hellenistic influence. You also see that in some messianic movements, especially the one that led to Christianity.
Look at all those Jews who came to Jerusalem for Passover in the New Testament. They came from all over. It's true that Jews were all over the place, and made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem once a year.
I believe Jerusalem is a fundamentally Jewish city and is important to the culture of the Jewish religion and people, but we have to look at who makes up the Jews. At one time, there were converts, and the Jews seemed to welcome it. Look at the journey out of Egypt. A non Jew marries Moses and he seems to embrace her and her family as Jews even though they are not. Moses lets them in and they are spared.


page 1 of 10:  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  Next »

Home / History of Poland / Unanswered [this forum] | Similar


Similar discussions:

Poland: Her heroes and her traitors  Jaruzelski asked Soviets for assistance


Random: How would I say: CHCIALBYM FRANK POZWOLENIE NA BOJALBY TWOJA CORKA

Only registered and logged-in users may post here. Please log in or register.


62 [Guests - 48 / Members - 14] users on live forums now


Home | Unanswered | Archives | Random | Statistics Time in Poland: 18:15 / May 26

About Us | Contact Us | Rules, Privacy | Poland Advertising

© 2005-12 PolishForums.com